Spider found in AZ

[Athlon2k2]

I found a nice size black spider in my garage, about 2 inches long, that is keeping the garage bug free. I was thinking about collecting her but she looks to be eating healthy. The problem is she has a egg sac next to her. I don't really want a ton of spiders all over my garage. I was thinking about collecting the egg and raising the young. Is this a bad idea. I've never dealt with egg sacs before and I am not to experienced with spiders although I have a L. hesperus. Let me know.

-Dustin

[pitbulllady]

Is there any way to get a picture of this spider? There are lots of black spiders, not all of them Latrodactus. What does the eggsac look like, and the web itself? A good description of those would be useful in ID'ing the spider, perhaps, if a photo can't be procured.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

Sorry for the broad description. The spider has a build like a wolf spider. It is a heavy webber. The spider is about 2 inches long and dark black. I live in Arizona. The eggsac does look a lot like an L. hesperus egg sac. Small, round, yellow and about 3/4 inch in diameter.

[pitbulllady]

Does the spider live on the ground, or in a crack between boards along the walls or base of the garage? Does the webbing have a "fuzzy" or "wooly" appearance, or it is the wispy, thin random threads suspended above a surface? If you shine a flashlight at the spider, can you see a distinct eye-shine? I'm asking because I've got an idea of what it is-just need a few more details.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

It is residing along the base board. It has fairly thick webbing that is covered in dust and dirt but is still super sticky. The webbing extends from about 8 inches down to and on the floor. I didn't noticed any eye shine when I hit it with a light. The spider's body is just over an inch long.

[pitbulllady]

Sounds like you've got yourself a Kukulcania sp. there, probably K. arizonensis. The web description sounds right, as does the eggsac and the spider. Leave the eggs with her-it's already too late to worry about your garage being full of these things! They're like mice-if you see ONE, you've already got dozens, perhaps hundreds. This is probably just the first one you've seen. I don't know if K. arizonensis is as social and colonial as its cousin, K. hibernalis, or as prolific, but I'd bet there's not that much difference between them. A photo would still be nice, though, to be sure.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

Well to me it looks like you guess might have been spot on. Here is a bad pic of her and her egg. She has definitely consumed a few of her own kind. I think I might be interested in try to keep this sac. How many babies would I be looking at?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/Athlon2k2/IMGP6315.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/Athlon2k2/IMGP6318.jpg

[What]

That is most definitely a Kukulcania sp. as for eating her own kind? I doubt it. I have had a female in with her eggsac and all the slings for a few weeks and have had no problems with her eating the slings.

[ErikWestblom]

I have no experience with any Kukulcania spp., living in Sweden and all, but what I think you are talking about are the molts of the spiderlings in her web. These are not the remains of any "sling feast" :P

[pitbulllady]

Yep, my suspicions are correct! That is, as What pointed out, a definite Kukulcania female! And, as EricWestblom added, what you are seeing in her web are the moults of 'slings, not corpses. She will defend her babies with the ferocity of a sow Grizzly rather than eat them, and they could stay with her for a few years, even after she produces more offspring. Unlike most true spiders, these breed like tarantulas, and females can produce eggsacs year after year. I HAVE seen cannabilism, but it was when an unrelated, outside spider was introduced to a colony and there was a huge size difference between the one who did the eating and the one who got eaten. They're like wolves; they apparently recognize members of their own colony and won't harm them but strange spiders are another story. They're very interesting spiders to observe because they seem to have a definite social structure.

pitbulllady

[crpy]

Yep, my suspicions are correct! That is, as What pointed out, a definite Kukulcania female! And, as EricWestblom added, what you are seeing in her web are the moults of 'slings, not corpses. She will defend her babies with the ferocity of a sow Grizzly rather than eat them, and they could stay with her for a few years, even after she produces more offspring. Unlike most true spiders, these breed like tarantulas, and females can produce eggsacs year after year. I HAVE seen cannabilism, but it was when an unrelated, outside spider was introduced to a colony and there was a huge size difference between the one who did the eating and the one who got eaten. They're like wolves; they apparently recognize members of their own colony and won't harm them but strange spiders are another story. They're very interesting spiders to observe because they seem to have a definite social structure.

pitbulllady

I like how long lived the females are. I keep a bunch for presentations and I have six 6 year olds and they are doing great, very high heat, drought tolerant.

[Athlon2k2]

Awesome. I thought most of the exos I was seeing were her previous molts. But there are A LOT. Also I'm not sure were the male is. This is the only one I've seen and I have dug in that garage several times. So should I collect the sac or not? She doesn't seem to care about the sac. It is just kind of hanging in the open on one or two threads. When she is hanging out she generally isn't that near to it.

[crpy]

Awesome. I thought most of the exos I was seeing were her previous molts. But there are A LOT. Also I'm not sure were the male is. This is the only one I've seen and I have dug in that garage several times. So should I collect the sac or not? She doesn't seem to care about the sac. It is just kind of hanging in the open on one or two threads. When she is hanging out she generally isn't that near to it.

Mine lay infertile egg cases all the time, I'm not sure of the incubation time but if she has tossed it then it probably not fertile. The mm look nothing like the females, a perfect example of sexual dimorphism. Their life-span is extremely short after maturity.

[pitbulllady]

Awesome. I thought most of the exos I was seeing were her previous molts. But there are A LOT. Also I'm not sure were the male is. This is the only one I've seen and I have dug in that garage several times. So should I collect the sac or not? She doesn't seem to care about the sac. It is just kind of hanging in the open on one or two threads. When she is hanging out she generally isn't that near to it.

It looks to me like the eggsac has already hatched, so her devotion to it won't be that strong. Just leave the sac where it is. All those moults are from the 'slings, which will spend most of their time hiding in some nearby crevice. Toss the mom a cricket a see what happens-nine times out of ten, you'll see 'slings coma a-running from everywhere! They will feed after the mother has injected "meat tenderizer" into the body of the insect.

As for the male, he's long gone, literally. Like male tarantulas, males of this genus die shortly after their ultimate moult, whether or not the female kills them. Usually, by the time I see them mating with a female, their abdomens are so shrunken that they're almost non-existent. It's a wonder they have any energy left to mate. Also, male Kukulcanias don't look ANYTHING like the females; they're scrawny, light tan things that are often mistaken for "Brown Recluses". You could have seen one, and not even equated it with that big black female.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

If it is likely infertile then I will probably collect the egg and see what happens. Thank for the help everyone, expecially pitbulllady.

[Athlon2k2]

Well she is now caring for the egg sac again. She seems to pick it up and hold it and then leave it somewhere and come back and get it again. I am going to collect the egg sac but don't have any idea what to do with it. This should be an interesting endeavor.

[What]

Know that if you collect the sac it will be a long haul till the slings are adult... Kuks are quite s low growing. :wall:

[Athlon2k2]

I figured they might be. Unfortunately I am kind of in a predicament. I don't own the house so letting spiders everywhere might be a problem and the owner will want to spray. So I either have to crush the sac which I do not want to do or try to hatch it and if the babies become to much I can release them somewhere. Is this species communal?

[pitbulllady]

I figured they might be. Unfortunately I am kind of in a predicament. I don't own the house so letting spiders everywhere might be a problem and the owner will want to spray. So I either have to crush the sac which I do not want to do or try to hatch it and if the babies become to much I can release them somewhere. Is this species communal?

Yes, they are very communal; I've even seen several cooperate to kill really large prey, like American Cockroaches(what we call "Palmetto Bugs" in SC) and "lubber" Grasshoppers. Offspring will often remain with or near their mother for years. I've got some CB youngsters that will be three years old this coming October, that are still with the mother, and still small...and trust me, it's NOT from lack of food! They grow like Aphonopelma tarantulas. Like I said earlier, you already have a sizable population of these spiders on the property, even if you've only seen that one, so it's pointless worrying about a whole bunch of them hatching out and infesting the place. Where you have one, you've got hundreds. If it makes you feel better, though, remove the sac and relocate it under a rock somewhere out in the desert. I think it's already hatched anyway, which is why you are seeing all those 'sling moults in the female's web. Just be aware that if she's still showing interest in it(and I've had females guard empty sacs months after they've hatched), she could put up a spirited defense of it, so it would be a good idea to use long forceps and be prepared to drop 'em if she comes charging up towards your hand! These are normally docile spiders, but females do not play around when it comes to defending their offspring. You might want to distract her by dropping a fat cricket in her web first. Or, why don't you collect both the sac AND the mother, so if it's still viable, she can raise the babies and they can all live happily together, which they will. They are interesting and easy keepers and can eat adult crickets with no problem. A female will live for many years; I don't even think anyone knows how long they will live. I've got some huge girls I've had for four years or more, and they were huge when I caught them, so I'm thinking females have the potential to live 10-12 years, given that it apparently takes them several years just to reach full size.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

I might collect her too. I just like the fact that she keeps bugs out. I can't say I have seen anything else but the occasional scorpion in the garage. So I guess the next question is how do I catch her and how and what do I relocate them too. I have tons of KK and other tanks.

[ErikWestblom]

Just collect her like you would a Tegenaria. What I do is I collect an ant, crush it a bit so it can't run on the web (don't know about Kuk webs, but they can run on Tegenaria webs), drop it in the web, not too far from her litte hole, but not too close either, you want to be able to grab her the second she is out.
Atleast Tegenarias won't get fooled by a twig or something like that.

A KK will be fine as housing. For my Tegenaria I have peat substrate, a cork bark tube in one end, and a twig in the other end so she can make a proper web.

I wish we had Kuks in Europe... If I want one I'll have to buy one from German dealers, and they have them for sale for like 12 euros (~$25)

Good luck!

[pitbulllady]

I collect Kukulcanias by waiting until they are out on their web, then I take a small deli cup, and put the lid between the spider and the entrance to its "hole", which is the first place it will head for if it feels threatened. At the same time, I invert the cup over the spider. If the spider does not walk into the cup, I carefully slide the lid underneath it. These spiders do not have the ability to climb slick surfaces, so if the cup is deep enough, they cannot get out. I transfer to a larger container, and put in a piece of toilet paper tubing as a "den". The spider will soon begin webbing. They don't need as much space as Tegenarias since they don't make that large sheet-like web. I occasionally mist the web and I have seen these drink droplets of water, but normally, they seem to get all the moisture they need from their food.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

Awesome, thanks guys, what about the sac? Do I just put it in there with her and let her take care of it? Also the KK I have have thin slits in the top. Won't the slings be able to escape?

[pitbulllady]

Just put the sac in with her. If it hasn't hatched, the 'slings will stay with her for a long time, long enough for you to decide where to take them to release them. I think that sac has hatched, though, and the 'slings are already in the garage. I am willing to bet there are others of this species, of various ages, all over the garage, too, and always have been. I really don't see what the problem is; even if you're not the property owner, YOU cannot be responsible for native spiders that are extremely common indoors being in that garage, anymore than someone who rents property on the edge of the Atchafalaya Basin can be responsible for mosquitoes flying around the yard! It might be a different situation if these were dangerous, and you knew they were there and did nothing, but they're not. They're probably in the house, too. When you become aware of these particular spiders, you realize just how numerous they actually are. I never paid any attention to them before I got into spiders, unless I found one on the floor or in the sink, but now, I can locate at least 10 individuals living in this one room alone, and that is NOT counting the ones I actually keep! Most people coming in here would have no clue they were there.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

I have always been pretty aware of animals around me. I know of several in my house and a few outside. I have not seen another in my garage. There are plenty of the same species outside. She was also right at the opening of a crack that led to outside.

[Athlon2k2]

Well I collected her and her sac. I felt bad for her, but I am moving out in a month and my landlord will definitely kill her when he sees her. Here is another pic of her.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/Athlon2k2/IMGP6339.jpg

[crpy]

They are also in attics, I do attic inspections every week and I see them in every attic I go in. I can not believe the heat they can take.

I cool thing you will see her do is rub her 4th legs together quickly to "tease" her web up as it comes out. It looks like they are playing the fiddle.

[Athlon2k2]

For most of yesterday she was hiding. And then last night she was in the open holding onto her eggsac.

[Athlon2k2]

Well she has fashioned up a little web and has attached her egg sac to it. If the sac hatches will the slings be able to climb the sides of the KK?

[pitbulllady]

Well she has fashioned up a little web and has attached her egg sac to it. If the sac hatches will the slings be able to climb the sides of the KK?

The 'slings will only be able to climb where she attaches webbing, since this species does not have scopulae which allow them to climb smooth surfaces, without some sort of irregularity to grab ahold of.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

Well today I noticed a couple dozen slings around the egg. My guess is that they just began to hatch. They are in a KK with the mother. Will the KK keep the slings in? What should I do? Thanks.

[pitbulllady]

The slings will stay with their mother for a few weeks, but after that, they will begin to disperse, or at least some will. Some, like human offspring, seem really reluctant to leave home, lol! If they can climb the sides to reach the openings, they'll leave, so you can either cover the openings(these things are not air-tight), or just place it outside in a cool place so they can disperse naturally.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

I know you said they were very communal earlier. What size enclosure should they all be in and what type of lid would I use that would keep the slings in?

[pitbulllady]

I know you said they were very communal earlier. What size enclosure should they all be in and what type of lid would I use that would keep the slings in?

I keep mine in those tall Tupperware storage containers with the screw-on lids, the same kind I've got my Black Widows in(two of which have sacs now). They aren't airtight, so the spiders can breath, but can't get out.

pitbulllady

[Athlon2k2]

I guess the next question is how do I transfer them. And how big of a container should I get to house how ever many there might be (now over 30 slings)