Validity of Loxosceles reclusa (Brown recluse) in Florida

[xhexdx]

I was told a few weeks back by an ER surgeon that L. reclusa aren't in central/southern Florida. He said there has never been a documented bite other than in northern Florida.

I was wondering if anyone has either personally seen L. reclusa in Florida (meaning proper identification has been made) or knows how to search hospital/doctor records to find out if this is true or not.

I keep hearing of all these people who have been bit by them, but nobody has the spider to prove it. I'd like some solid proof.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

--Joe

[John Apple]

Joe...In 11 years I have never seen one there...spent many a day flipping trash and in the crawl spaces in some houses...never seen one.
Saw many yellow sac spiders. Had a bite in the leg I went to the doctor for while in Naples and they said it was a recluse bite...doubtful man. I could have been bitten by anything...there is more than one thing that can give a necrotic bite....:cool:

[xhexdx]

I agree with ya.

I was just reading this thread:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=130388

It addresses the concept of getting accurate hospital records, so we might need to forget that part of my original post. I'm still curious if anyone in Florida has found an actual recluse though.

Thanks for the quick response, John.

[crpy]

I hear this all the time like you do. I have been looking as well and nothing in ten years. People have brought me spiders swearing they are recluse, even bringing INTERNET PICS of recluse. Most are H. venatoria ADULTS lol,and juvis. others are Kukulcania and what ever. Did you read GB Edward's paper on the subject, he debunks several physicians records. I have personally witnessed wrong ID by a physician blaming recluse.

[lucanidae]

http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif

Above is a pretty accurate map of Loxosceles spp. range in the U.S. Anywhere else they are being reported is either on the edges, a misID, or perhaps arrived in a box or some other human aided way.

[xhexdx]

I'm not sure how accurate that map is any more...considering hardlucktattoo is finding them in North Carolina...

[ctsoth]

A tiny bit off topic, but we have multiple species of "Black Widows" in Minnesota. For some reason they are only found in or around things that have been shipped from out of state though.

[lucanidae]

You can see North Carolina is just barley included on that map for L. reclusa, which for me makes it 'on the edge'.

Of course, so is Florida...the map is simply an approximation, but its the best visual one easily available on the internet.

And...there are the other two less likely options I presented for finding them elsewhere, though I wouldn't be particularly surprised to find them in the wild in NC.

[8+)]

It's refreshing to hear of medical professionals who have a good degree of skepticism on this issue.

[wsimms]

I am a physician and at a meeting this summer we discussed the fact that there have been 200+ reported "L. reclusa envenomations", but only a single documented L. reclusa specimen in the entire state (not sure where). Either there have been many misdiagnosed cases or one very busy (and ornery) spider.

[crpy]

I'm not sure how accurate that map is any more...considering hardlucktattoo is finding them in North Carolina...

Did he find one, did he show a pic, because I remember the thread but I dont know the out come of it.:?

[cjm1991]

I lived in Florida for a few years and never saw or heard of one. Now I live in Missouri and they are everywhere..

[syndicate]

I know of 2 people in my area that were both recently diagnosed with recluse spider bites here in Connecticut.I'm guessing in reality there came from sac spiders(Miturgidae).One of the people bit was my boss and he had a nasty wound left from the bite.It since has healed after seeing a doctor.The other bite happened to someone a friend of mine knows and supposedly he may have to get his leg amputated since he waited to long to see a doctor.
Heres a link to check
http://www.acvcsd.org/insect_identification/yellowsacspider.PDF
-Chris

[buthus]

Did he find one, did he show a pic, because I remember the thread but I dont know the out come of it.
I dont think that was ever 'resolved'. :rolleyes: :? Though someone told me that spider(s) were sent for confirmation (??)...but hey, what ya gonna do? ..ask the spider where shes been? Those pics look swiped off the web. Thats y I wanted to see the raw image.

I would say I'd be very surprised (if we had the star trek bio-scan) to find that there wasnt L.reclusa in Florida ...and N.Carolina for that matter.

[pitbulllady]

You can see North Carolina is just barley included on that map for L. reclusa, which for me makes it 'on the edge'.

Of course, so is Florida...the map is simply an approximation, but its the best visual one easily available on the internet.

And...there are the other two less likely options I presented for finding them elsewhere, though I wouldn't be particularly surprised to find them in the wild in NC.

Wilson, NC, where Hardlucktattoo lives, is nowhere near that tiny little portion of the Great Smokey Mountains on the NC/TN border. I live in SC, and have never seen one here. Dr. Robert Wolff, an arachnologist with UGA and Clemson University, has searched for L. reclusa in both Carolinas, and has yet to find one or be sent a specimen that was collected in the Carolinas. Aside from the possibility of a random specimen "hitch-hiking" to the state in the luggage of someone arriving from the midwest or TX, it just does not seem likely, given that there are actually quite a few folks out looking for these, finding nothing. Every single "Brown Recluse" I've been shown has inevitably been something different that IS common in this area, usually either Pholcus phalangiodes, Kukukcania hibernalis or a Lycosid of some sort.
I DID get a nice and well-needed laugh at CRPY's comment that people where he lives, in FL, have actually thought that an adult Heteropoda venatora was a "Brown Recluse", though! That's kinda like mistaking an Italian Greyhound for an Irish Wolfhound, but then, I've seen folks here mistake BIG Hogna carolinensis for one!

pitbulllady

[xhexdx]

Did he find one, did he show a pic, because I remember the thread but I dont know the out come of it.:?

Check the link I posted earlier in this thread.

[crpy]

Check the link I posted earlier in this thread.

uumm, sorry I really hate to say this, but since this would be for a confirmation record...I would have to see a pic of hardlucktattoo holding the deli cup with the spider in it.

[xhexdx]

Well yeah I agree with that.


But I'm not really concerned with North Carolina. I'm concerned with Florida. I don't think there will ever be any real answers for me though...until someone finds a recluse around these parts.

[nitrotek]

used to find them on Camp Lejeune they would come in are barracks during heavy rains and had one guy in my platoon bit in the leg

[pitbulllady]

used to find them on Camp Lejeune they would come in are barracks during heavy rains and had one guy in my platoon bit in the leg


Who confirmed that these were L. reclusa? Were the spiders actually identified by an arachnologist, or just someone who said, "I think that's a Brown Recluse"? Did anyone SEE the spider bite the guy on the leg, exactly where a lesion appeared, and positively identify THAT spider as a L. reclusa, or did a sore appear on the guy's leg and someone said, "I've seen 'Brown Recluses' n the barracks; Brown Recluses can cause sores on humans when they bite, therefore this is a Brown Recluse bite"?

pitbulllady

[Venom]

Hate to break it to ya, but the state of Florida, Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services has this to say:

No species of recluse spiders are native to Florida, but three species have been intercepted, and occasionally have established populations in single buildings at scattered locations.

The brown recluse has been found in Alachua, Bay, Duval, Jefferson and Leon counties. It typically has a dark violin-shaped mark, although the color is variable.

The Mediterranean recluse has been found in Dade, Escambia, Orange and Osceola counties. It is very similar in appearance to the brown recluse, but the violin mark tends to be lighter in color and has parallel sides.

The Chilean recluse has only recently been found in Florida, in Polk County. It is the largest and most dangerous of the recluse species. The violin mark of this species is dark and wider in front than behind. DPI Pest Alert on the Chilean recluse

Quoted from: http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/enpp/ento/venomousspiders.html


I've personally identified ( online ) L. laeta from a Florida resident. There may not be many Loxo sp., running around, but they do have scattered populations, all introduced.

[crpy]

Hate to break it to ya, but the state of Florida, Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services has this to say:



Quoted from: http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/enpp/ento/venomousspiders.html


I've personally identified ( online ) L. laeta from a Florida resident. There may not be many Loxo sp., running around, but they do have scattered populations, all introduced.

It was my understanding after talking with GB. Edwards that those isolated cases were eradicated. I think it would be ignorant not to believe that someone moving here from say , Illinois could possibly bring some in boxes from their basement. I guess the point is there are no native populations.

[8+)]

Well, the original question was are they there period. It looks like they are, and I agree with buthus that it's not really all that surprising. I think you can be pretty sure that if isolated populations have been found, whether those have been destroyed or not, then others exist. Especially when you take into account that three different species have were cited in the article Venom cited, and also that they usually live up to their name with there inconspicuous nature. Plus, the majority of the ones I've seen have been small (dime size), and I get the feeling that they are dismissed as just a "brown spider" as often as other spiders are mis-IDed as recluse. As I've stated before, I slept with them for years without knowing they were there!

Even if they are not there, I imagine it's only a matter of time...

[nitrotek]

pitbulllady
the spider was a brownish tan squashed mess and the ER Dr. ided it as a recluse that and the golfball sized crater in his leg and the similiar sized semi solid puss ball might all be indicators but maybe not I myself had caught them in the barracks.just because they dont range on the map doest mean theyre not there.case in point a friend of mine worked at a grocery store here in CT and would bring me Huntsmen spider he caught at work they had come in on produce and became established

[Strix]

I'm in about the same areas as Joe and I constantly hear about people who were bit or had a friend bit by a L. reclusa and it's getting to the point I just have to laugh at it.

Everytime someone gets a little bite on their leg it is either the dreaded recluse or the widows.

I was bit on the leg by something in elementary school and we went to a doctor who said it was a recluse bite and said I was lucky the venom had no effect. :wall:

As for myself personally I have not seen a spider down here that comes much close to looking like a recluse although I do believe there may be populations in small areas due to shipping, human transportation, etc.

[pitbulllady]

pitbulllady
the spider was a brownish tan squashed mess and the ER Dr. ided it as a recluse that and the golfball sized crater in his leg and the similiar sized semi solid puss ball might all be indicators but maybe not I myself had caught them in the barracks.just because they dont range on the map doest mean theyre not there.case in point a friend of mine worked at a grocery store here in CT and would bring me Huntsmen spider he caught at work they had come in on produce and became established

I personally wouldn't trust ANY medical doctor I've ever had any dealings with to be able to identify a spider of ANY kind, if the thing came with its scientific name attached to it in the form of a neon sign! This ESPECIALLY goes for ER doctors, who are usually not doctors at all, but overworked interns who still think that having a college degree makes them infinitely more intelligent than every person they see in the ER. I myself have witness an ER intern "identify" a dead baby Elaphe obsoletta as a "September Rattler"-whatever the heck THAT is-and order ANTIVENIN to be given to the child "victim" brought in, and I nearly got arrested due to my vociferous protests of that decision. Fortunately, a man who was there in the waiting room for another patient was also a Scout leader, and had a copy of guidebook to reptiles of the South, that included a photo of a juvenile Rat Snake, proving me right. That "doctor" would have, at the very least, wound up costing this family a small fortune to "treat" a child who didn't need treating in the first place(no swelling, no redness, normal vital signs-kid wasn't even upset), and could have easily wound up killing this kid, since this was in the days before the safer antivenin Cro-Fab.

If you read the many, many threads here on the topic, there are SEVERAL medical conditions which can result in a "golfball sized crater" in a person's flesh, along with "similar sized semi solid puss masses". I've had such a thing happen to me-no spider involved, just an ingrown hair that became infected! By the way, even with verifiable Brown Recluse envenomations, that wound you describe does NOT occur immediately after the bite, so it's extremely doubtful that by the time the person arrived at the ER with the spider that JUST bit him-and I wouldn't expect him to hang onto a dead, squashed spider for very long, either-he'd already have a wound that had progressed to that extent. There are also countless "tannish brown" spiders native to the Carolinas; my house is full of them-Pholcus phalangiodes, Parasteatoda tepidariorum and of course, the males of good ole' Kukulcania hibernalis. AND, I have never heard of an established breeding population of Huntsman in CN; that doesn't mean that they don't come in on fruit shipments, but given that the Avicularia tarantulas that briefly did become established here on our property in SC eventually died out, due to the weather not being conducive to their long-term survival, I sure wouldn't place any bets on the establishment of long-term populations of a tropical species in CN. We get shipments of fruits in from the tropics, too, but Florida is still the most-northerly range of introduced Heteropoda venatora. They can't even survive the climate in SC. Their chances of making it in New England would be, to quote the late Douglas Adams, like a "whelk's chance in a supernova".

pitbulllady

[xhexdx]

Well at least I got some good info from here. Thanks everyone. :)

[Venom]

Pitbulllady...I agree in general with your post. But, we have to bear in mind the possibility of INDOORS introduced populations. Outside, the climate has its say, but in an artificially-heated building, or networked series of buildings, say, in a city, the extra warmth can be enough to sustain exotic species. Take, for instance, Harvard U, in Massachusetts. It was found to have an introduced population of L. laeta, in one of its buildings, despite it's being native to Chile. They survived due to the heated environment. Likewise, L. rufescens ( Mediterranean recluse ) has been discovered in southern Michigan, again, mostly in urban, heated buildings. Michigan's climate is in NO way hospitable to a species native to Tunisia, and yet they are here, indoors.

But otherwise, yes, a medical doctor is the ABSOLUTE LAST person you ask about a possible Loxosceles ID, unless you already need treatment for a bite.

[John Apple]

hey Venom....where exactly in southern Michigan are the rufescens.? ...this looks like a road trip

[Venom]

They're in a band across lower Michigan, especially in the Flint/ Lansing areas, mostly in urban settings. I know of one envenomation from Owosso ( an inmate in the county jail ). I also have a *possible* L.rufescens bite report from a gentleman in Standish, whose symptoms and circumstance of envenomation fit the Loxosceles modus operandi, but that would be an outlier.* Mainly, they're in the lower tier of lower Michigan, in the larger cities.

*He reported feeling a bite on his head while carrying a kayak that had been stored in his barn for some time. He did see a spider, but could not identify it ( just brushed it off himself ). There was NO initial stinging or swelling, thereby ruling out Cheiracanthium spp. The bite did not become pruritic or swollen, and progressed into a SINKING, spreading pit on his head, becoming deep enough to threaten the scalp. Pain was a chronic ache, rather than an intense stinging sensation. His doctor prescribed antibiotics. No infection resulted, but the sore developed large enough to leave him with approx 1" square total surface area of scarring on his scalp (he's bald, so it's plain to see ).

Steatoda borealis are also present in this locale, in alarming abundance. However, the lack of pustules, and of acute sensation in the bite area, as well as total lack of neurlogical symptoms contra-indicates Steatoda spp. envenomation.

We also have a few Trachelas tranquillas, but the lack of stinging, infection, and swelling, as well as the scope and severity of the necrosis, contra-indicates Trachelas spp. envenomation.

The spider was described as small and brown.

As there are no L. reclusa for 400 miles, but L. rufescens at 100 miles, and the symptoms specifically rule out Cheiracanthium, Steatoda, and Trachelas spp., I drew the conclusion that the tissue necrosis was most likely indicative of a stray L. rufescens.

[buthus]

L.rufescens ..desire is high. Find $ome for me! :D ;) :)

[UrbanJungles]

L. reculsa has been confirmed living in NYC...Queens I believe. As Venom stated, they have taken indoors in places with inhospitable weather.

Hey Tom Sullivan - you reading this? Details man! details!!!!!