Phoneutria Paper

[delherbe]

Hello, does someone have this paper?

Revision and cladistic analysis of the Neotropical spider genus Phoneutria Perty, 1833

I need it to ID a spider.

Bouncehead@gmx.de

MfG,

Delherbe

[jsloan]

Hello, does someone have this paper?

Revision and cladistic analysis of the Neotropical spider genus Phoneutria Perty, 1833

I need it to ID a spider.

Bouncehead@gmx.de

MfG,

Delherbe

Try this link: http://direct.bl.uk/bld/PlaceOrder.do?UIN=100163986&ETOC=RN&from=searchengine

[toolrick]

Hey there!!!
send me a picture, perhaps I can help you.

[toolrick]

Paper sent to your e-mail.

Ricardo

[BjörnE]

Hi Toolrick,

it would very nice from you when you can send me the paper, too.

I have the same problem, that I have bought a Phoneutria spp. as fera, but I don`t really think it is a real one.

Would be veeeeery nice from you!

Best regards,

Björn

[toolrick]

Give me your e-mail adress and I would be happy to send you the paper.
If you can send me pictures of the specimen you have it would be great.

Ricardo

[BjörnE]

Hi Ricardo,

my e-mail-adress is bjoernelksnat@t-online.de, but, can`t you see it in my profile page? I don`t know...

When I have your e-mail-adress, I send you the pictures. Maybe you can help to find out what it is...

Best regards,

Björni

[toolrick]

Paper sent.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

thanks for the paper. My specimen turned out to be a huge P.Reidyi male and the other seems to be a Boliviensis female.

[delherbe]

Heres a picture of the big guy.

@BjörnE wir laufen uns auch überall über den weg,)

[toolrick]

I bet is a male, but you have kept him well fed.
How many molts has it have so far?

Ricardo

[jsloan]

Heres a picture of the big guy.


Nice! :clap:

[delherbe]

Hi,

@Ricardo

it`s a WC and it looks like he need still one molt to adulthood, so he becomes even bigger than yet.

Most of the time he`s a really relaxed guy but I had to change a little bit of the substrate because of mold a few days ago and he abruptly becomes a bit pissy, and it`s a realy impressive event if a Phoneutria male that big (4cm Body and 16cm legspan) and that beautiful (blazing yellow red black phase) beginns with his typical movement an spreads his cheliceraes.

So, how to handle a real fera which is naturally sullen and can get bigger in bodysize? I think it could be funny to catch one;)

[delherbe]

and by the way:

Normally you have to keep an eye on the males when mating, but homegrown females of reidyis aren`t that big, so I have to warn breeders that they have to feed the male well before mating and then have a look at their females.


I hope my english isn`t so bad like the translator says;)

[toolrick]

Where did you find that WC specimen?
It looks great. Mine are not as big though. They can have something like 12cms of legspam, but that's about how much the adults I find WC around my house are. Body lenght of about 2-3 cms. Mine has not eatten for a few days and I believe is going to die pretty soon. It has been with me 2 months now and when I found him he was already adult so... I know that males do not live long time. I have not had females so far, only the one I am rasing, still waiting for her to grow up more, and hopefully I can find another WC male to mate them.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

@Ricardo

I`ve found him at a german Store next to me. And they got him as P.fera from the last import. I`ve done my research well and theres no doubt that it is reidyi.

Where do you come from? If you`re able to export P.fera gimme a mail.

BTW: Dealing with Phoneutria is a bit like gambling. You never know what you get before you have it, but thats the risk I have to live with when I buy from a store;)

[delherbe]

@Ricardo again

Did you sent me the pictures of the P.fera male that is now conserved? If so, my reidyi boy looks exact the same but it`s a reidyi.

[toolrick]

Hey there!!!

I am from Colombia. We do not have P. Fera around here, most of them are P. Colombiana aka Boliviensis. It would be hard to get one, I would have to go to the Amazonas Jungle in order to get one because here no body would sell an spider to anybody.

I do not know if the P. Fera picture I sent you is from a spider preserved, all I know is taht it turned out to be Fera and not Boliviensis.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

Ok. Boliviensis are not realy what I want, the tiny one I have here is really fast in searching the next hidingplace. So not much to see.

If you deside to make a trip into the jungle in ther near future and catch Phoneutrias especially big P.feras just let me know and I would pay the price you want for them and btw I would take more than just one or two.

Selling Phoneutrias to everyone is a no go I agree with. Most people who wan`t to buy one just can`t imagine whit what a potential a free Nigriventer/fera can come up with.

[delherbe]

I talked about the yellow tiger morphed Phoneutria male.

[toolrick]

If you have a small Boliviensis, wait for it to grow up. Mine is not as skitish as she used to be now. She's almost adult and she's always showing up.
And mine is agresive as well. I have seen her give the threaten possition many times.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

Shes not really small, in fact she is, but not for boliviensis standards. I think she need one molt too.

I`ve looked at all the "fera" pictures that are available on the net but noboby have pictures of confirmed feras so I think that just a handfull private keepers really know how a fera looks like. It`s like Stefan said in the past, fera is a ghost and not really available, so why not change that in a small circle.

[toolrick]

hehehe... Well I have never seen a Fera so far. Only Nigreventer's are all over the internet. But so far I have not seen any Phoneutria that looks like the ones I am carying. You would have to deal with an Enthomologist who has studied the specimen before or someone who has gone to the jungle looking for the specimens. Most Phoneutrias in Brasil are Nigreventer because that is the specimen that is most common around the houses, just as Boliviensis are.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Yep,

Nigriventer is the one which is available from time to time on the market.

Boliviensis and Reidyis are the most commercial species.

I`ve send a request to the Institut Butantan, in hope they send me more infomaterial about fera.

How far is the amazon rainforest from columbia?

I get some Phoneutrias which seems to be another boliviensis morph without the orange stripe and yellow all over.

[BjörnE]

Hi you both!

@delherbe

Ja, Phoneutria-Liebhaber tummeln sich alle an den selben Plätzen ;-)

@toolrick

We read from each other in a more non-public way than this ;-)
Something new good photos available?

Best regards,

Björni

[delherbe]

@Björn

Welcome to the jungle.

[toolrick]

Well the Amazon is distributed in 4 countrys here in South America, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador and the biggest of all is in Brasil. I went once to Leticia which is the capital of Amazonas, but when I went there I was still a kid and I was not looking for animals neither spiders.
Amazonas is like an hour and a half away from my city but I only can go by plane, there are no good roads to go there and the guerrilla is well distributed in that part of Colombia and in the whole jungle.
I hope you can get information from butantan, I guess many here in the board would love to see what a P. Fera looks like.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

hi,

yeah, I´ve heard about the guerrillas, the coca farmers and the civil war there. A dangerous place to search for some spiders.

Which part is French Guyana?

[toolrick]

hi,

yeah, I´ve heard about the guerrillas, the coca farmers and the civil war there. A dangerous place to search for some spiders.

Which part is French Guyana?

French Guyana is an island near Venezuela.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

ok.

It`s at the border to columbia. My mistake. But thats the place where the fera from stefan where found.

[toolrick]

So are they really Fera???
on the link I sent you???

[toolrick]

I found this interesting page showing what they described as P. Fera.

http://images.google.com.co/imgres?imgurl=http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/617/foto1feraventralko1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://apropok.blogspot.com/2008/07/dasz-curkkrszdesz-fonetise-nutrisz-d.html&usg=__PYHTzLe-Lq3qyCUarrRaS7pY2Ow=&h=1728&w=2304&sz=1081&hl=es&start=78&um=1&tbnid=Y7HtaJqHQwVWWM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dphoneutria%2Bfera%26start%3D72%26ndsp %3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Des%26sa%3DN

See it and let me know what you think.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

I don`t mean the spiders shown in the links. He just had said that he got a WC fera from FrenchG. in the past. No pictures, only his word.

[toolrick]

Ok... Did you check the link I just sent you???

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Wow, thanks for the page. This is similar to the picture in the revision from Martins and Bertani. The tiger striped abomen like a reidyi just in brown.

[delherbe]

Yes, i`ve checked the links, most of the pics looks like reidyi and Boliviensis, the other one I`ve not seen before.

[toolrick]

Did you check on the one that says to be Fera??
The first one. Well mine is refered as Boliviensis, but all the Boliviensis I have seen do not have the line on the top of the head; (do not know the name), so I am still doubting what mine is.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

yes,

ID a Phoneutria can be frutrating.

But I did a mistake, I don`t have the pic`s of your boliviensis, the pics I got where from another guy.

Maybe you can upload a pic.

[toolrick]

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=134294&highlight=phoneutria
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=137633&highlight=phoneutria
There you can see some of the pictures I have posted

Ricardo

[toolrick]

I also sent you some pictures to your personal e-mail.
They were taken 2 weeks ago.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Ok, thx.

I take a look at them tomorow. i need to take a sleep.

[delherbe]

Hi,

@Toolrick

the pics you send me looks like nigriventer and eventualy Boliviensis to me.

Here are better Pics of my reidyi. Hope you enjoy.

[Bastian Drolshagen]

hi,
and your ID is based on what?

[toolrick]

Thanks for the information, eventhough there are no information on Nigrevinter here in Colombia. Only P. Colombiana but they have not been well studied by sientists around.
Last night I found another male that was getting to my house, so I release the old male I had and I am keeping the new one. I do not like to see them die from old age, so I send the old one to the wild.
Does a female have to be adult in terms to mate a male and a female?
How do I know my female is ready to mate?

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

@Bastian

If you mean me,

now, my ID is based on the pics that are available at the www, the revisions of the genus and other infos that are open source.

That`s all. No taxonomic analysis of the spider.

Why you want to know that? Do you have doubts that it is a reidyi? I know that a 100% identification without a "closer look" is not really water resistant but I`ve done my homework and for me there are no doubts what it is.

There are two species "known" to get that big, and there are two species "known" to have the tiger striped coloration. Fera and reidyi. And fera is in my opinion absolutely out of the question for more reasons, not last because of its behavior and coloration.

Hope this is what you want to hear;)

[BjörnE]

@Bastian and @delherbe

Hey Jungs, dass könnten wir doch besser in "unserem" Forum (Sorry Bastian, Deins ;-) weiter ausdiskutieren, könnte spannend werden!^^

Ich denke auch, lieber delherbe, ohne "Draufsicht" auf Dein Tier, und zwar mit einem GUTEN Bild, kann es fera sein, kann es reidyi sein...

Ich hoffe ja reidyi, aus einem ganz bestimmten Grund :-)

LG Björni

[delherbe]

Hi,

@björn

Ich hätte die Disskusion auch gern im andern Forum geführt. Hat allerdings niemand auf die Bilder geantwortet. Is halt noch recht wenig los dort.

Aber hier die Draufsicht.

Ich kann dazu eigentlich nur sagen das das Tier die Mentalität einer Hummel hat und kaum aus der Ruhe zu bringen ist. Allerdings würde ich aufpassen das sie nicht erschrickt;) Die kann auch anders. Wenn ich ehrlich bin, ist das eine der Sympathischsten Spinnen die ich bis jetzt hier hatte. Mit meinem Cupiennius Bock der grad bei seiner Dame sitzt könnt ich so Fotos nicht machen. Der ist ein bisschen tricky.

[BjörnE]

Hi!

It`s definetly NOT P. reidyi I think!

Sorry delherbe, aber das ist dann wohl doch fera, reidyis sehen gaaanz anders aus...

Hatte schon genug hier, schon allein die gelben Härchen sind total reidyi-untypisch...

In "unserem" Forum dauerts nur leider immer ein bisserl länger...

LG Björni

[delherbe]

Hi,

die Farbe kann durch die Fotos etwas variieren, ich würd allerdings nicht anhand der Flaumbehaarung einen festen Entschluss ziehen. Ich hab genug Bilder abgeglichen und bin nach jedem weiteren Bild von fera Richtung reidyi gekommen dann wieder Fera und dann zurück zu reidyi. Ich würd eine gewisse Farbtoleranz hinnehmen.

Zudem kann ein Wildfang sowieso mimmer etwas abweichen, zumindest bei Phoneutria ist dir die Variation ja bekanntt. Bestes Beispiel P.nigriventer mit roter Zeichnung ohne Zeichnung und weiß der geier was noch für Zeichnungsvarianten existieren. Das Abdomen eine Fera sollte auf der unter Seite braun sein wenn ich richtig lieg.

[delherbe]

@Björn

Ich kann gut verstehn das du denkst das es keine Reidyi ist. So sicher wie du dir momentan bist das es keine reidyi ist war ich bis vor kurzem auch. Allerdings je mehr ich weiter gesucht hab umso mehr kam ich zu dem Ergebniss das es keine fera ist.

[delherbe]

Hier noch ein Link. Das könnte ein fera Bock sein. Auch das Verhalten würde passen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roniemilk/2321034397/


PS: Durchsuch hier mal die Galerie nach reidyi. Jede sieht anders aus.

[toolrick]

Sorry to interrupt you guys, but I cannot understand anything that you are writting and it would be great to read the discution. Is it maybe possible for you that let us know what the whole discution is in English???
Thanks a lot, I would apreciate it a lot and I think many in here who enjoy the subject and keep Phoneutrias would do as well.

Ricardo

[jsloan]

Does a female have to be adult in terms to mate a male and a female?

I believe so, yes. The epigynum of the female doesn't reach maturity until the last molt.


How do I know my female is ready to mate?
Ricardo

Check the epigynum. It should be lightly to heavily scleritized, with definite structure. I've never examined Phoneutria per se, but in many other entelegyne spiders the penultimate (next to last instar) female epigynum may be visible, but is still covered with a smooth layer of skin.

Sometimes this isn't easy to see, especially when looking at a spider that's hanging onto the side of a glass terrarium. :)
If you can find a wild female with an egg sac you'd be sure of having a mature individual. Then, you could compare its epigynum with that of your other specimen.

[Bastian Drolshagen]

hi,
for the english speaking users:

It`s definetly NOT P. reidyi I think!
Sorry delherbe, aber das ist dann wohl doch fera, reidyis sehen gaaanz anders aus...
Hatte schon genug hier, schon allein die gelben Härchen sind total reidyi-untypisch...

Means:
Sorry delherbe, but it´s more likely a fera, since reidyi look completely different...
Had some of them and those yellow hairs are not typical for reidyi...

My comment: I wonder how many specimen of P. reidyi you kept so far and how many of those you examined.
Have you ever determined a Phoneutria (or any other spider) on basis of other features except for color, (eye-)pattern, habitus?
In a nutshell: How can you say this is not P. reidyi without having examined the spider, especially in regard to similar pattern/color of Phoneutria males?!?

How can you say it is P. fera? Because of pictures on the internet? If so, who says those specimen have been properly determined? Or because of the single picture of the ventral opisthosoma of P. fera in Martins and Bertani (2007)?
Maybe those hairs are yellow due to white balance?

A high resolution macro picture of the pedipalp (on which the apophysis is visible!) could help...

P.S.: Remember: This is an english speaking forum!

[burmish101]

Has anyone had success raising slings? I've heard most die very early for unknown causes is this true?

[toolrick]

Yes, many in here have attempt to do so. Stefan, and some others are doing it since years.
Try the search function for Phoneutria and you will find a lot of information on the mater, how to care for them and raise.

Ricardo

[BjörnE]

Hi burmish101!

No, I have an other experience with Phoneutria slings...

It is right that these are very "weak" when they are in the 1st or 2nd molt, but when you have passed this stages, its really no problem to get them big!

You must care for them in the first 2 molts, with enough fresh air, enough humidity too and good food, but after then its no really problem to see them growing very big...

Its a spider you must look at this every day to their wellness, but its not magic.

Easy to handle when the wish for it its true...

Best regards,

Björni

[delherbe]

Hi,

to hold that thread up to date her are some new infos and some new pictures.

The shown phoneutria is a reidyi. It seems that there are two colormorphs, this one and the pink one.

The spider molted a few days ago and is now a big and adult one.

Here some new pictures.

[toolrick]

As I commented before nice shots...
I was pretty wrong on the size of the legs my adult male has; they are 5cms long. Not as big as your male. Have you sized the legs since he molted?
Ibet they are 10cms or 11cms long.

Ricardo

[delherbe]

Hi,

a little update. The legspan is up to 18cm.

[Adryan]

Hello EveryOne...

Hello german's ;-)

i looking for phoneutria fera and nigriventers to.
But i have so any problems to find it.

it's possibel to buy this spider in the usa?

Or have anyone contatc's? (Butantan doen't like to help)

wish all a great day, nice pics here.

greetings from germany

Tim