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IrishPolishman
01-18-2009, 07:43 PM
my Full Grown female A. Seemani isn't doing so well. Last night I noticed she was walking kinda funny. Today I checked her and she wasn't right at all. It was definitely DS. She was a T I bought off of craigslist. Her previous enclosure was super dirty and disgusting. I have a feeling it's a lingering ailment from her previous owner for which caused the DS. She is currently still alive but not moving except for a few little twitches here and there. She's in her ICU but doesn't seem to be experiencing any improvements.

So...what's the next step?

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 07:47 PM
my Full Grown female A. Seemani isn't doing so well. Last night I noticed she was walking kinda funny. Today I checked her and she wasn't right at all. It was definitely DS. She was a T I bought off of craigslist. Her previous enclosure was super dirty and disgusting. I have a feeling it's a lingering ailment from her previous owner for which caused the DS. She is currently still alive but not moving except for a few little twitches here and there. She's in her ICU but doesn't seem to be experiencing any improvements.

So...what's the next step?

if shes allready in the ICU there is nothing else you can do but wait.

olablane
01-18-2009, 07:48 PM
Keeping fingers crossed!!!!!

IrishPolishman
01-18-2009, 08:01 PM
should I be worried about it spreading to the other Ts? The A Seemanis tank is being sterilized right now. I also cleaned all around the area and the other enclosures. Also how common is this problem? Do we have anymore certainty on what causes it or how to prevent it?

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:16 PM
lowering the temps as much as possible for long periods would help inhibit the growth of bacteria, if that is the cause of ds. I would lower temps to 60-65 for awhile.

J.huff23
01-18-2009, 08:18 PM
I have heard of DS spreading to other Ts.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:18 PM
lowering the temps as much as possible for long periods would help inhibit the growth of bacteria, if that is the cause of ds. I would lower temps to 60-65 for awhile.

who says bacteria is the cause of DS? I wouldnt lower the temps, that could harm your t's further.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:19 PM
if ds is bacterial it is also contagious. We don't really know the cause though. Try quarantining the spider and lowering temps like I said. I have heard it prolongs the life of the spider and gives it a better chance of fighting it off whether it be a bacterial, viral, or fungal.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:21 PM
if ds is bacterial it is also contagious. We don't really know the cause though. Try quarantining the spider and lowering temps like I said. I have heard it prolongs the life of the spider and gives it a better chance of fighting it off whether it be a bacterial, viral, or fungal.

who says it isnt paint fumes? Don't lower the temps, if anything it should be put into an ICU with slightly higher temps.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:22 PM
who says bacteria is the cause of DS? I wouldnt lower the temps, that could harm your t's further.

that's why I stated "if that is the cause". I would do any means possible to fight an almost 100% fatal disease. Temp is the least of your problems if you've got a spider with ds.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:23 PM
who says it isnt paint fumes? Don't lower the temps, if anything it should be put into an ICU with slightly higher temps.

And aid the growth of a possible bacteria? Many findings suggest that it's a bacterial disease.

IrishPolishman
01-18-2009, 08:26 PM
I believe i've taken every precaution there is. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:27 PM
I have a hard time understanding your rationale.

The cause of DS is unknown.
So why would you reccomend treatment for a T when you dont even know the source of its problems?
I would go with whats trusted and put it in a classic ICU.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:28 PM
An ICU would be the worst possible treatment for a t if ds is bacterial also; you've offered the perfect breeding grounds, temp, darkness, hydration, and humidity for the bacteria. Haven't you ever done a science fair project where you cultivate bacteria in your closet or something?

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:28 PM
And aid the growth of a possible bacteria? Many findings suggest that it's a bacterial disease.

please show me these findings.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:31 PM
I have a hard time understanding your rationale.

The cause of DS is unknown.
So why would you reccomend treatment for a T when you dont even know the source of its problems?
I would go with whats trusted and put it in a classic ICU.

We need to try something else if an ICU hasn't helped the thousands of spiders that have passed to this ailment. And like I said, many findings suggest bacterial infection.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:34 PM
from what I've heard DS is untreatable, and I doubt simply "prolonging" the growth of bacteria will cure DS.
again I really really really want you to show me proof that bacteria is the cause of DS.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:39 PM
.




Another one I know who has lost a lot of specimens has sent dead spiders and crickets to a institute (www.EXOMED.de) for examination. A rough summary of the results (was not easy to translate, especially the specialized terms):
Histology: a highgrade inflamed bowel with heavy "Proliferation" of inflame-cells, a starting necrosis. Almost no content in the bowel! In a histologic cut lots of big chopsticklike bacteria in the wall of the bowel. Sporadic "Microsporidien".

No sign for pesticide effect!
bowel and organs "intrazytoplasmatische Einschlüsse", virus suspicion!


55 of about 100 tarantulas who have been fed by these crickets are infected. Interestingly, different specimens showed a different course of this disease. Some showed shivers since a longer time, but could still catch prey (e.g. A. geniculata). Others (e.g. Avicularia spp.,Psalmopoeus spp.) died within a night without showing any signs of this disease.
Lesser problems with Brachypelma spp. as with e. g. Haplopelma or Aviculariinae spp.. Some specimens died within some days, other are still living. Some specimens seems to have recovered slightly.
In the final stage the movements of the spiders are totally out of control, they lose their balance and drop on the their back.


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=17135

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:43 PM
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080618164713AAFCwLQ
"There have been a few people on here that have posted the same problem with their tarantulas. It definitely seems to be seasonal in outbreak. If they can make it to a molt, it seems that some can survive it. But, you will have to drip feed it water and pretty much use forceps to hand crickets right to it..
Best of luck.."

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 08:52 PM
THESE POSTS SUGGEST A BACTERIAL OR VIRAL CAUSE! SO LOWERING THE TEMPS IS AN UNDERSTANDABLE METHOD OF TREATMENT FOR A MISUNDERSTOOD DISEASE! And spiders have conquered it before also, it is just very very rare.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 08:55 PM
well it still doesnt sound like conclusive evidence...in all reality once your T has DS it doesnt sound like there is anything you can do for it. Im sorry for your T but there probably isnt anything you can do. I still dont think lowering the temps is gonna help the T at ALL. bacteria will still grow at 60 degrees. I wouldnt want to prolong my T's death just to see it live a little longer. What if its suffering, I know one things for sure DS doesnt look to comfortable.

now where is this block button thingy?...

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 09:15 PM
well considering the thread has no EVIDENCE as to what causes DS I am not going to buy the lower the temps idea. That thread is just filled with speculation and questions, no hard evidence or fact.

Endagr8
01-18-2009, 09:35 PM
I agree and I'm sorry for my aggressive attitude earlier. There definitely needs to be more research on ds. Lower temps would slow the growth of bacteria though.

Protectyaaaneck
01-18-2009, 09:55 PM
Yeah its too bad we don't have more info on it. Its sad to see T's suffer. I hope I never have to encounter this myself. Maybe with time, we will figure out what it is and how to prevent it. (still seems like a long shot though, not enough people in this world care about T's and bugs in general).

xhexdx
01-18-2009, 10:05 PM
<edit>

Anyway, to the OP: I have heard of some people successfully hand-feeding their tarantulas with suspected DS to their next molt, and the symptoms appeared to decrease, if not disappear, with the molt. Those who had decreased symptoms had no symptoms the followng molt.

So, keep her fed (hand feed her if you have to) and keep her alive, and you may get her through it!

--Joe

IrishPolishman
01-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Well it ended badly so I have her currently in a container in the freezer. Is there anyway to preserve her or keep her for display? If this sounds weird let me know and i'll shut up. Normally I just bury my pets but I would like to somehow keep this one around. What to do?

Skullptor
01-19-2009, 11:07 AM
An ICU would be the worst possible treatment for a t if ds is bacterial also; you've offered the perfect breeding grounds, temp, darkness, hydration, and humidity for the bacteria. Haven't you ever done a science fair project where you cultivate bacteria in your closet or something?

ICU isn't the same thing as keeping something in a petri dish.

Bacteria can live at a WIDE range of temperatures, depending on what species you are talking about.

You are making a large assumption that the bacteria (if that is even the cause) can be slowed at a temperature that won't harm his T. This sounds like potentially harmful advice under the guise of science to me.

sorry to hear that it didn't make it. You could put it in resin or a a shadow box.

Nerri1029
01-19-2009, 12:29 PM
ICU isn't the same thing as keeping something in a petri dish.

Bacteria can live at a WIDE range of temperatures, depending on what species you are talking about.

You are making a large assumption that the bacteria (if that is even the cause) can be slowed at a temperature that won't harm his T. This sounds like potentially harmful advice under the guise of science to me.

sorry to hear that it didn't make it. You could put it in resin or a a shadow box.

I couldn't agree more.

Cooling the spider will certainly slow the T's own metabolism and its ability to cure itself. As for the bacteria I grow species that can survive 57*C and some that will be hindered by temps near body temperature.

Bacteria that infect a cold blooded creature like a spider are:
- likely to be able to thrive at cool temps. ( room and cooler )
- will likely have to survive in outdoor media.

neither would suggest that they would be seriously hindered by cool temps that your T would survive.

that said I can't prove the hypothesis wrong, but I put it in the highly unlikely to be beneficial category.

bliss
01-19-2009, 01:31 PM
why do people call it diskinetic "syndrome"..? i do not think it's a "syndrome".

if anything, it should be called diskinetic "symptoms".

to make an example:
it would be like saying if everytime someone got a fever, they suffered from the flu. when in reality, it doesn't mean they have the flu, as it could be any number of things that cause feverish symptoms.

someone explain this to me... :)

scottyk
01-19-2009, 01:49 PM
An ICU would be the worst possible treatment for a t if ds is bacterial also; you've offered the perfect breeding grounds, temp, darkness, hydration, and humidity for the bacteria. Haven't you ever done a science fair project where you cultivate bacteria in your closet or something?

The ICU is a proven method of keeping a sick tarantula hydrated and warm, which is the only thing you can do at this point. It will still have to recover with no further intervention. It's not like you can take it to the vet for an injection of antibiotics.

The idea of an ICU being a breeding ground for a bacterial infection is moot if it already has one. This statement would only be true if we were discussing keeping a healthy tarantula in an overly warm and moist enviroment for an extended period.

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 02:26 PM
But it is recommended that water is sterilized before being placed in an ICU, in an effort to prevent bacterial growth. This suggests that bacteria prefer these environments (the host of bacteria has similar conditions; the inside of animals is warm, dark, moist). Almost all bacteria that infest living animals thrive at warm temperatures as well.

scottyk
01-19-2009, 02:53 PM
There would be no point. Assuming that it even is a bacterial infection, and assuming that it's external, as soon as you put the tarantula in, the environment is no longer sterile. You would obviously not want to wet the ICU with water from yout toilet, but buying an autoclave is probably overkill....

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 03:44 PM
Why would it be external? It looks like an infection of the nervous system.
Ps: you don't need an autoclave to sterilize water.

scottyk
01-19-2009, 03:59 PM
What would a sterile enclosure do for an internal infection?

You do need an autoclave to sterilize everything else. You're not suggesting adding sterile water to an unsterilized container, are you? :rolleyes:

I not actually suggesting getting an autoclave. I'm trying to make you see that your idea is impractical and unnecessary. You are confusing cleanliness with sterilization. To do an ICU, add clean water to some paper towels, and put it all in a clean container. Then put it in a warm, dark place and monitor/spot clean as necessary.

That's the end of the story...

Boanerges
01-19-2009, 04:03 PM
Sorry to see your seemani didn't make it!!!

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 07:40 PM
What would a sterile enclosure do for an internal infection?

You do need an autoclave to sterilize everything else. You're not suggesting adding sterile water to an unsterilized container, are you? :rolleyes:

I not actually suggesting getting an autoclave. I'm trying to make you see that your idea is impractical and unnecessary. You are confusing cleanliness with sterilization. To do an ICU, add clean water to some paper towels, and put it all in a clean container. Then put it in a warm, dark place and monitor/spot clean as necessary.

That's the end of the story...]

Whatever dude......you don't need an autoclave to sterilize everything else btw (alcohol and boiling water can be poured over things). Glass containers can be sterilized. If ds is caused by bacteria in the bowel, as an earlier post suggests, then some of it would be expelled into the perfect breeding grounds of an ICU each time the spider defecates.{D :razz: :o ;) :} :p :drool: :)

scottyk
01-19-2009, 08:02 PM
If ds is caused by bacteria in the bowel, as an earlier post suggests, then some of it would be expelled into the perfect breeding grounds of an ICU each time the spider defecates.{D :razz: :o ;) :} :p :drool: :)

And if there was sterilized water in there when the spider defecates, that would be different how? I'll also be waiting for your explanation of how to sterilize the paper towels with boiling water and alcohol.

No need to "whatever dude" me. If you don't have your facts straight, and are not capable of discussing it in a mature fashion then we can end it here. My goal of setting the record straght for those who may need an ICU is completed. If you choose not to get it, that's your perogotive....

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 08:22 PM
And if there was sterilized water in there when the spider defecates, that would be different how? I'll also be waiting for your explanation of how to sterilize the paper towels with boiling water and alcohol.

No need to "whatever dude" me. If you don't have your facts straight, and are not capable of discussing it in a mature fashion then we can end it here. My goal of setting the record straght for those who may need an ICU is completed. If you choose not to get it, that's your perogotive....


I'm saying that an ICU is the wrong way to go if a t has ds. If it did poop in an ICU, the whole thing would be a breeding ground for the bacteria that is ailing the t. To sterilize paper towels for ICU- pour boiling water over them/ stick them in oven/microwave/use ultraviolet light to sterilize EVERYTHING. Be careful not to set them on fire obviously

scottyk
01-19-2009, 08:43 PM
I'm saying that an ICU is the wrong way to go if a t has ds. If it did poop in an ICU, the whole thing would be a breeding ground for the bacteria that is ailing the t.

I understand, and I'm saying that your assertion is incorrect for several reasons.

1- Sterilizing the container does nothing. Blood culture plates that labs use to "culture" bacteria are sterile when you open them. As soon as you put the tarantula in there it is no longer a sterile environment.

2- An internal bacterial infection is already inside the tarantula, and will be geared to survive that environment. It will not thrive on a damp paper towel. Your reasoning would be the equivalent of a hospital treating an aids patient by sterilizing the room.

3- In ICU is a great enough help to the tarantula that it is worth putting it in there. There are countless documented cases of this working right here on the boards. The extra warmth and fluids are to help give it the strength to fight off the problem itself.

4- Again, cleanliness vs sterilization. You need to monitor an ICU and keep it clean, which has been stated several times. If the paper towels get soiled, common sense would dictate that you take 5 minutes and clean it up.

5- No one understands DS, and there is no way to know in advance if this is the problem.

Any of this making sense to you?

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 09:03 PM
I understand, and I'm saying that your assertion is incorrect for several reasons.

1- Sterilizing the container does nothing. Blood culture plates that labs use to "culture" bacteria are sterile when you open them. As soon as you put the tarantula in there it is no longer a sterile environment.

2- An internal bacterial infection is already inside the tarantula, and will be geared to survive that environment. It will not thrive on a damp paper towel. Your reasoning would be the equivalent of a hospital treating an aids patient by sterilizing the room.

3- In ICU is a great enough help to the tarantula than it is worth putting it in there. There are countless documented cases of this working right here on the boards. The extra warmth and fluids are to help give it the strength to fight off the problem itself.

4- Again, cleanliness vs sterilization. You need to monitor an ICU and keep it clean, which has been stated several times. If the paper towels get soiled, common sense would dictate that you take 5 minutes and clean it up.

5- No one understands DS, and there is no way to know in advance if this is the problem.

Any of this making sense to you?
1.-I know that.
2.-Like I said, when the t defecates, the bacteria are on the warm, damp paper towel in the feces, a suitable environment for the bacteria. While they continue to propagate on the feces, they can spread to the paper towel (bacteria can survive on different mediums). And then back to the tarantula when it drinks from the ICU....this is why they recommend changing paper towels often (and to prevent mold).
You could effectively treat an AIDS patient by sterilizing the room, greatly extending their life.
3.-Has an ICU proved successful against DS?
4.-No one understands DS, and there is no way to know in advance if this is the problem. WAIT, What did you just say? His t obviously had DS.

In conclusion, the warmth added by the ICU helps bacteria propagate internally. Colder temps would hinder this growth. An Icu would be more effective for a t suffering with DS if temps were cooler (55-65) and it were kept insanely clean. The only benefit of your method is hydration, which could have been contaminated by feces; unless, of course one were to disturb the t by checking on it every 5 min like you said to clean, stressing it drastically.

scottyk
01-19-2009, 09:23 PM
1.-I know that.
2.-Like I said, when the t defecates, the bacteria are on the warm, damp paper towel in the feces, a suitable environment for the bacteria. While they continue to propagate on the feces, they can spread to the paper towel (bacteria can survive on different mediums). And then back to the tarantula when it drinks from the ICU....this is why they recommend changing paper towels often (and to prevent mold).
You could effectively treat an AIDS patient by sterilizing the room, greatly extending their life.
3.-Has an ICU proved successful against DS?
4.-No one understands DS, and there is no way to know in advance if this is the problem. WAIT, What did you just say? His t obviously had DS.

In conclusion, the warmth added by the ICU helps bacteria propagate internally. Colder temps would hinder this growth. An Icu would be more effective for a t suffering with DS if temps were cooler (55-65) and it were kept insanely clean. The only benefit of your method is hydration, which could have been contaminated by feces; unless, of course one were to disturb the t by checking on it every 5 min like you said to clean, stressing it drastically.

1- Then why are you continuing to mention sterilizing the water?

2- The bacterial infection is already there in your scenario. The warm, moist environment has been proven time and again to be of greater benefit to the tarantula, no matter how many times you choose to ignore this point. Your asserion about treating aids is ridiculous...

3 and 4- Nothing has been proved successful against DS, and there is no way to know in advance if that is the problem. Placing a sick tarantula in an ICU has been shown to improve it's chances of survival. Stop trying to change the discussion to fit your incorrect assertion that an ICU is bad. PS. If you have successfully diagnosed ds in this spider over the internet, and proven that it's bacterial, congratulations. I'll be awaiting the publication of your paper.

In conclusion, your conclusion is based on zero factual content. The ICU is not "my" method. It is a method that has been used sucessfully for years by many keepers. How many tarantulas have you cured by putting them in 65 degree wet, sterile containers?

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 09:39 PM
1- Then why are you continuing to mention sterilizing the water?

2- The bacterial infection is already there in your scenario. The warm, moist environment has been proven time and again to be of greater benefit to the tarantula, no matter how many times you choose to ignore this point. Your asserion about treating aids is ridiculous...

3 and 4- Nothing has been proved successful against DS, and there is no way to know in advance if that is the problem. Placing a sick tarantula in an ICU has been shown to improve it's chances of survival. Stop trying to change the discussion to fit your incorrect assertion that an ICU is bad. PS. If you have successfully diagnosed ds in this spider over the internet, and proven that it's bacterial, congratulations. I'll be awaiting the publication of your paper.

In conclusion, your conclusion is based on zero factual content. The ICU is not "my" method. It is a method that has been used sucessfully for years by many keepers. How many tarantulas have you cured by putting them in 65 degree wet, sterile containers?

1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.

I said cool and dry conditions with a clean/sterile water source. I know ICUs can be extremely effective against other ailments, just not DS, if it is bacterial. Show me your "factual content" where an ICU has saved a t with ds.

Nerri1029
01-19-2009, 10:16 PM
1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.

I said cool and dry conditions with a clean/sterile water source. I know ICUs can be extremely effective against other ailments, just not DS, if it is bacterial. Show me your "factual content" where an ICU has saved a t with ds.

BUT how would you sterilize the patient ???

You are assuming way too much based on way too little.
Cooling a T to the point where you hinder bacteria will likely harm the T as well !!

IrishPolishman
01-19-2009, 10:35 PM
Never thought this topic of my T's death would promote such an argument.

I've worked in many scientific/research settings and think that a clean ICU is still the way to go. No matter how much arguing there is, we have no idea what the real cause of DS is. Maybe ICU's don't always work, but what the heck else are you gonna do? I would like to feed my slings sprite and vitamin C since that's what makes me feel better. The only thing we know to do is stick them in an ICU because we can't talk to them and research still needs to be done. No matter what, the success rate of a T with DS is dismal. I've heard that people have hand fed there T's back to health, but come on, who in the world has time to really do that? I have too many slings to keep an eye on, a full school and work schedule, and a LIFE. I just hope that next time I could possibly catch the ailments earlier, it seemed to set in fast. You guys can argue about temps and such, but we don't even know if it's truly bacterial. It could be from cig smoke, stuff in the water, stuff in the air, bad cricket, or environmental stress. NOBODY IS FOR SURE. I think i'm just gonna go to the invert lab at Ohio State and pick their brains for a bit. My experience however, is stuff like this, scientists and researchers just shrug their shoulders and give their opinion on what they think works but have no real answers.

cheetah13mo
01-19-2009, 10:43 PM
I have heard of DS spreading to other Ts.


What ever D.S. is, it is NOT contageous. I've had it with a few of my T's and I never isolated them and it did not spread.
This does not rule out similarities in enclosure conditions that in my opinion are where the focus of any research needs to be.


why do people call it diskinetic "syndrome"..? i do not think it's a "syndrome".

if anything, it should be called diskinetic "symptoms".

to make an example:
it would be like saying if everytime someone got a fever, they suffered from the flu. when in reality, it doesn't mean they have the flu, as it could be any number of things that cause feverish symptoms.

someone explain this to me... :)

Doesn't really matter until we have something to go by to help narrow the cause down does it?


Never thought this topic of my T's death would promote such an argument.

I've worked in many scientific/research settings and think that a clean ICU is still the way to go. No matter how much arguing there is, we have no idea what the real cause of DS is. Maybe ICU's don't always work, but what the heck else are you gonna do? I would like to feed my slings sprite and vitamin C since that's what makes me feel better. The only thing we know to do is stick them in an ICU because we can't talk to them and research still needs to be done. No matter what, the success rate of a T with DS is dismal. I've heard that people have hand fed there T's back to health, but come on, who in the world has time to really do that? I have too many slings to keep an eye on, a full school and work schedule, and a LIFE. I just hope that next time I could possibly catch the ailments earlier, it seemed to set in fast. You guys can argue about temps and such, but we don't even know if it's truly bacterial. It could be from cig smoke, stuff in the water, stuff in the air, bad cricket, or environmental stress. NOBODY IS FOR SURE. I think i'm just gonna go to the invert lab at Ohio State and pick their brains for a bit. My experience however, is stuff like this, scientists and researchers just shrug their shoulders and give their opinion on what they think works but have no real answers.

This is one of my stories from another thread. Take it for what ever it's worth. Good luck.


What ever D.S. is, it is not contageous. I've had it with a few of my T's and I never isolated them and it did not spread. The D. S. symptoms developed at different times so it is a condition that the T developes and does not inherit. I had a P. scrofa sling develope it and that T is the only one that, over a few molts, made it back to full health as a mature male. All I did was increase the water avalibility in it's container and I think I caught it before it got bad. The other five died within 6 month of showing the symptoms. I, in no way shape or form, have anything to back any of this up but only with my own experieces and observations. What I've come up with is prolonged stress cause by an invirenment that is not fitting for the T or the T just didn't like and it was not changed in a timely fashion. Both, my P. scrofa and P. rufilata, were purchased when I was only 6 months into the hobby and seeing them more active was nice but now knowing they were stressed, I think, ended up costing them thier lives. I've also had a couple of mature males develope D.S. and I believe just being in captivity, not able to hunt for females, added a enormeous amount of stress to them. I also think my female G. rosea and my female A. versicolor developed D.S. because I left thier envirenments too dry with too little water to drink. Both died quite rapidly. The addition of moisture and more water initiated the desire to drink but they were both too far gone to do it. Keeping all of my arboreal T's in the same type of containers and in the same design setups, eating the same kind of food from the same boxes, drinking the same water from the same source, living on the same subsrate from the same bag and staying in the same room, under the same conditions, tells me it was their envirenmental conditions. The others never developed it because once the A. versi did, I raised the humidity level for all my arboreals so they got taken care of before anything set in. That was the only change I made and I'm sure there would have been others if I had kept them in those conditions, without any change. Each species of T has certain requirements that need to be met, just like each rosie can have a drastically different attitude (some nice, some devil spawn) so I feel it is very important to pay close attention to each individual T's behaivior and make adjustment in a timely manner to see what the T respondes well to. As I said, I never did isolate any of them and I was able to make adjustments based on this theory and I have not had a T develope D. S. in almost 16 months. There is no sience behind what I'm saying, just my own logic so take all of this just as it is, my own expirience. If anyone has any questions for me, I'll answer them the best I can because I'd love to be able to compare notes and maybe we can figure something out. I hope this helps.

IrishPolishman
01-19-2009, 10:52 PM
Actually I read that post when I initially encountered my problem. Seems like it's more or less just a thing of chance but we must do our best to keep the T's in the proper stress free environment. I think i'm still gonna stop by the invert lab at Ohio State and see if I can drum up something that we didn't know about.

scottyk
01-19-2009, 10:59 PM
1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.




One more try....

1- This statement has zero basis in fact...

2- I'm sure you can use the search function without my help. ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject.

3- "I have said ICU's are bad in treating ds from the beginning".

Yes, and that is exactly the statement that I and others have been trying to tell you is wrong. No one knows what causes DS, if it's bacterial, or how to diagnose it.

The ICU is still your best chance of helping a sick tarantula. The fact that nothing that has been discovered yet that will cure DS does not change that. Especially as you can't diagnose it pre, or even post mortem.

Irishpoliceman, sorry your thread got hijacked, and I'm sorry about your tarantula. My concern is the misinformation being posted will be taken as fact by the next person to search ICU.

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 11:04 PM
BUT how would you sterilize the patient ???

You are assuming way too much based on way too little.
Cooling a T to the point where you hinder bacteria will likely harm the T as well !!

You wouldn't sterilize the patient. They would live in a sterile bubble. I'm assuming no/very few patients do this because life in a bubble would suck.

It would harm the t, but they could survive it.

Endagr8
01-19-2009, 11:13 PM
One more try....

1- This statement has zero basis in fact...

2- I'm sure you can use the search function without my help. ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject.

3- "I have said ICU's are bad in treating ds from the beginning".

Yes, and that is exactly the statement that I and others have been trying to tell you is wrong. No one knows what causes DS, if it's bacterial, or how to diagnose it.

The ICU is still your best chance of helping a sick tarantula. The fact that nothing that has been discovered yet that will cure DS does not change that. Especially as you can't diagnose it pre, or even post mortem.

Irishpoliceman, sorry your thread got hijacked, and I'm sorry about your tarantula. My concern is the misinformation being posted will be taken as fact by the next person to search ICU.

1. whatever That was imo
2. Nope:razz: you can post some links. I've read TKG cover to cover, it never even mentions ds.
3. I was referring to you in my earlier post, buddy: you said they improved chances (for a t with ds), which would be a sign of success. I disagree. They are not effective against ds.

Everything I have said is imo. Obviously if you've openly admitted that ICUs are unsuccessful in treating ds, we need to try something other than just throwing every diskinetic tarantula into an ICU.

Irishpoliceman, I'm sorry that we've turned this into a debate. My condolences to you and your tarantula.

scottyk
01-19-2009, 11:25 PM
1. whatever That was imo
2. Nope:razz: you can post some links. I've read TKG cover to cover, it never even mentions ds.
3. I was referring to you in my earlier post, buddy: you said they improved chances (for a t with ds), which would be a sign of success. I disagree. They are not effective against ds.

Everything I have said is imo. Obviously if you've openly admitted that ICUs are unsuccessful in treating ds, we need to try something other than just throwing every diskinetic tarantula into an ICU.

Irishpoliceman, I'm sorry that we've turned this into a debate. My condolences to you and your tarantula.

1-And therefore has no basis in fact

2-ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject. This is my quote from the last post. Where did I mention a diagnosis for DS?

3- I, and others have said that an ICU is your best bet for any sick tarantula. You are the only one pretending to know what DS is and what's best for it, no matter haw much you try to twist my words with a straw man argument.

I'm still waitng for you to explain how you diagnose ds. You must be able to if you are making recommendations as to where to "throw every diskinetic tarantula".

Endagr8
01-20-2009, 12:10 AM
1-And therefore has no basis in fact

2-ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject. This is my quote from the last post. Where did I mention a diagnosis for DS?

3- I, and others have said that an ICU is your best bet for any sick tarantula. You are the only one pretending to know what DS is and what's best for it, no matter haw much you try to twist my words with a straw man argument.

I'm still waitng for you to explain how you diagnose ds. You must be able to if you are making recommendations as to where to "throw every diskinetic tarantula".


I have said earlier that an ICU is extremely beneficial in many cases, excluding DS (IMO).

I never said I knew what DS is, I'm just stating what I would do IF it was bacterial.

If you've ever seen a t with ds, then you can make a pretty clear diagnosis. No one can diagnose prior to symptoms. There are post-mortem sign of ds.

Straw man argument? Twisted words? You're the one who doesn't know what I'm arguing and goes off on tangents on sterile vs. clean.

We each have our own opinions. I agree to disagree.