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西行寺 幽々子
05-01-2009, 01:17 AM
this species i think it is Scolopendra subspinipes subspinipes before, but now i think i make a mistake

the last leg completely different from Sc. sub. subspinipes, please tell me what is it, Scolopendra morsitans or Scolopendra cingulata or others?

from Vietnam, but i think the distribution should more extensive

so far i found the biggest size is 15CM, but can't sure it is max size
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=11527



http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13024
Stomatal is triangle, not circle



http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13023
this is last leg, shorter and thicker than subspinipes


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13025
moult

if anyone want to more detail pic, please tell me , i will take some new photos

thanks

Draiman
05-01-2009, 04:47 AM
It looks more like Sc. alternans to me.

Androctonus_bic
05-01-2009, 05:46 AM
This is an alternans

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Teonanacatl/espinas_alternans.jpg

And the terminal legs are not similars, and also their not live in Vietnam.

S. cingulata not live in Vietnam

I think it is male S. morsitans.

But wait for experts.

Cheers
Carles

peterbourbon
05-01-2009, 07:28 AM
Hi,

S. alternans does not occur in Vietnam if the speciman on the pic is really caught in Vietnam.

Furthermore: If it's S. morsitans, then it's surely no male.

I suppose it's Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides.

Regards,
Turgut

Androctonus_bic
05-01-2009, 07:32 AM
Wow!
Is the first time that I've seen this ssp.

Dificult to ID! Thanks Turgut!

Cheers
Carles

peterbourbon
05-01-2009, 07:47 AM
Hey,

i didn't say i'm sure. ;)
But the terminal legs and distribution points toward this subspecies.

I have the description in original German language here.
Here is the translation (then maybe the owner can look it up for himself ;)):

Translation from
Attems C. (1938) "Die von Dr. C. Dawydoff in französisch Indochina gesammelten Myriopoden":
Prefemur of terminal legs less than twice as long as thick, relation of length to width: 5.5 : 3.2. dehaani found in the same location features a relation of 8 : 2.5. Terminal legs with 2 ventral, 2 medial and 4 dorso-medial spines, the prefemoral process is mostly bigger than the other spines. Coxopleural process with 3 spines. The sternites lack paramedian sulci (like some specimen of dehaani). The tergites feature more or less clearly noticable paramedian sulci. Location: Hagiang (Haut Tonkin); Thakek (Laos).

This variation combines somehow the taxonomical characters of subspinipes and cingulata. The average length and width of terminal legs' prefemur resembles cingulata, but it differs from cingulata by lacking paramedian sulci on sternites that are clearly noticable in cingulata. Furthermore the spines on terminal legs' prefemur are much stronger/bigger than in cingulata (where those spines appear tiny). The coxopleural process is longer than cingulata's process. In all those features this species resembles subspinipes and this is also affirmed by geographical distribution. "Subspinipes" is the most common species in Asia and "cingulata" only occurs in mediterranean area and bordering countries.

Chilobase points out following distribution area: Vietnam: Hagiang, Haut Tonkin. Laos: Thakek

Regards,
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-01-2009, 08:45 AM
peterbourbon ,thank you very much for your carefully reply

it is really caught in Vietnam, so far, i have seen 5 pedes from a vietnamese, and he give me two to keep, the 5 pedes looks have all the same features of terminal legs , if it is Sc. morsitans, the 5 pedes are the same sex, that is small probability

Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides, this is really a new name to me, i first seen it

and thanks for you give me the literature too

peterbourbon
05-01-2009, 09:02 AM
Hey,

you're welcome. :)
Thanks for sharing the pics.

I added a sketch with a comparison of ventral side (underside) of terminal legs (left: dehaani, right: cingulatoides):

http://www.scolopendra.info/pics_external/cingulatoides_terminals.jpg

I think you should look on the underside of the terminal legs. That could make some things clearer.

(Nevertheless i think subspinipes-species needs revision, but for now S.s. cingulatoides still seems to be a valid subspecies).

Regards,
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-01-2009, 10:02 AM
ok, i just take some new photos about the underside of terminal legs, and i have mark the important stuck by red round

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13037

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13036

it looks a Sc.sub.cingulatoides ,right?

by the way, i found this colour looks more good when it on a dark background
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13035:)

peterbourbon
05-01-2009, 10:08 AM
Hey,

if you are sure it's caught (not only sold) in Vietnam, then i'd personally go for S. subspinipes cingulatoides.

Congrats! :)


EDIT: Wait! I see i have translated one section wrong: i said "2 medial and 4 dorso-medial spines", but it must be "medial and dorso-medial together 4 spines"...and exactly those 4 spines we can see in your first pic. So i'm more confident in IDing it as S.s. cingulatoides. ;)


Regards,
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-01-2009, 10:37 AM
yes, it be caught in Vietnam , a vietnamese catch them in north Vietnam, and give me two for present, i have kept them about 9 months

thanks for your help

西行寺 幽々子
05-01-2009, 12:28 PM
in the reply, i learn many about S. subspinipes cingulatoides, specifically is the medial and dorso-medial together 4 spines, i just found i have another interesting example

this pede i have keep it a long time, about 1 year or more long, i always
call it dehanni before, so you can see the pic,looks like between dehanni"orange leg" and "Chinese Giants", but it have a diffrerent terminal legs too
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=11524
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13042


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13040

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13041

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13039

so , in these pic, the stuck on the terminal legs is different from dehanni too, and i have mark the stucks by blue round, it looks like S. subspinipes cingulatoides

this pede live in Burma, Vietnam , and Yunnan(Southwest
of China), mine from Burma, and it very big, most can grow longer than 20CM,mine is 19CM now

is it another S. subspinipes cingulatoides? and is S. sub.cingulatoides very common in Aisa too like dehanni or S.sub.subspinipes?

this is a moult pic http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13038 you can see the colour is different from dehanni, but very like S.sub.subspinipes "Philippines"

peterbourbon
05-01-2009, 05:31 PM
Hey,

distinguishing dehaani from other subspinipes-subspecies is very easy, it doesn't have spines at all on the underside of the terminal legs, so it would lack those two.

It's a little bit trickier to distiniguish the nominate (S.s. subspinipes) from cingulatoides only by spines, cause both can have two spines on the underside.

On the one hand my guess is based on the collecting site (Vietnam) and on the other hand it's the subspinipes-untypical thickness of terminal legs.
I'm not sure S.s.cingulatoides is a widespread species, cause it's officially only stated for Vietnam and Laos (which doesn't mean anything, of course).

So...i would not exclude Burma from cingulatoides-distribution, cause if you say your pedes were collected from Northern Vietnam, cingulatoides may be distributed in the "northern stripe" of Burma, Laos and Vietnam. But i don't know for sure.

Regards,
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 03:38 AM
so if you sure it is not a dehanni, what name we temporarily call it is the better? Sc.sub.subspinipes?

i feel the stucks on its terminal legs like S. subspinipes cingulatoides, it have seven stucks on each terminal legs , medial have 5, and underside have 2( please see the pic carefully)

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 07:06 AM
Hi,

i have an idea: You should check if it has a tarsal spine on 20th legpairs - if not, it's maybe a darker form of S. multidens. (It's not easy to check, but i would give it a try).

Maybe S. s. cingulatoides must be synonymized with S. multidens, because Attems does not give much information about that subspecies (i find a lot of resembling taxonomical features, so i'm unsure how to distinguish S.s.cingulatoides from S. multidens clearly - it's only the additional location info "Vietnam" that points more towards S.s.cingulatoides).

The S. multidens in trade have thicker terminal legs compared to S. subspinipes, but they all have a red headplate and a dark-green / brown body (even mentioned in the species description).

For the second species: Please check the tarsal spines on 20th legpairs, maybe that helps to go on.

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 07:28 AM
ok, i can do it now, but i can't understand "the tarsal spines on 20th legpairs" very cleanly(sorry for my bad English...)
can you mark it in my first or second pic? let me know where i need to take photos, if you can, draw a draft is ok too, thanks

and there is another colourful of the pede, it have all the same features with mine, just colour different, but i have no chance to get one, the pic is not mine
http://www.hwjbbs.com/UploadFile/2008-12/200812291132311383.jpg

by the way, my multidens dead in last Summer, and i not get a new one, so i can't show a macro photos of multidens now, sorry for it

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 08:46 AM
Hey,

you have to take closer look at the pair of legs before terminal legs (it's important: only the legs on segment 20 are important). Here is a sketch where you can find the tarsal spine on the leg (i don't mean the two claw spines):

http://www.scolopendra.info/pics_external/sketch_tarsalspine.jpg


I think you must take a macro photo from a side angle to see it - not easy, cause it's small (if the centipede features it).

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 10:11 AM
well, there are some new photo, i don't sure it is you want

really very hard, i think i have do my best, i can't take more chearly pic...

it seems not have it , this is the 20th leg
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13045
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13047
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13046

by the way, the 19th leg seems have a tarsal spine if it is
this is the 19th leg
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13048

so what do you think of ?

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 10:28 AM
Hey,

yes, i think it lacks the tarsal spine on 20th leg - and you can see this tarsal spine on 19th legs, exactly. Nice macro pics!

The macro pictures are taken from the first centipede that seemed to be cingulatoides or another one?

Refering to the subspinipes-related species i only know Scolopendra multidens and Scolopendra subspinipes japonica
that lack the tarsal spines on 20th legpair. It is not clear if Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides lacks it or not, because Attems does not say anything about that taxonomical feature.

multidens and s. japonica only differ in color (multidens: noticable red head plate differs from green/brown colored body, s. japonica: headplate same color, mostly greenish like the whole body), paramedian sulci on sternites (underside of the centipede you may notice two furrows on each segment...mutidens: they are faintly noticable and don't reach the back margin of each segment, s. japonica: sharp and good noticable furrows) and paramedian sulci on tergites (same furrows, but from above...multidens: they begin from second segment, s. japonica: they begin from 3rd segment...and don't count the headplate).

Sounds complicated. ;)

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 10:50 AM
all the pic from the second pede(the red one), the first one i haven't seen it about this features, so what will i do? go on to take the same part photo of the first pede?

and in your word, you think the second is a multidens, right? but so far still don't know the first one have the tarsal spine or not, if the first one really a cingulatoides and not have the features, that mean cingulatoides not have the tarsal spine on 20th leg too, right?

ok , tell me how to do now? if you need me take more photo that need wait sometime, the four pic i just take have cost about 1 hour and i think i need to the battery charge now

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Hey,

yes, i personally think the second centipede is a Scolopendra multidens, based on the taxonomical features we have seen here so far.

It would be nice to see the same 20th legs from the first centipede we assumed to be cingulatoides. If it features a tarsal spine on 20th legs then it can't be S. multidens and hence must be S.s. cingulatoides somehow (..and then it may be a proof that S.s. cingulatoides really exists).

If it lacks tarsal spines on 20th legpair (maybe you can check both legs) then we have a problem...or better: I could only assume by location if it's cingulatoides or not (and maybe Attems took S. multidens for S. s. cingulatoides...and cingulatoides is only a different local color morph of S. multidens...but i'm only guessing).

Since differences in subspinipes-subspecies seem sometimes weird and irrational (I'd personally synonymize mutilans with nominate, cause there is no real difference besides coloration and "paramedian sutures don't reach the end of each sternite completely") i don't wonder about the actual confusion between multidens, s. cingulatoides and s. japonica.

I have a Scolopendra subspinipes subspinipes from Malaysia that also lacks a tarsal spine on 20th legs on one side, but the other leg features it (but ofc has way thinner and longer terminal legs) - so most of the differences between those subspecies are based on variable taxonomic features (except lack of ventral prefemoral spines in dehaani).

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 12:40 PM
the first pede have the same features , have no tarsal spine on 20th legs
that is the 20th leg both each side
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13050
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13049

and the 19th leg have a clearly tarsal spine
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13051

sorry for bad pic, beacuse this pede it small, i'm hard to take photos

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 02:14 PM
Hi,

thanks for the nice pics, i suspected that it lacks tarsal spines on 20th legs.:confused:

Based on distribution and size (7.5cm, guess it's bigger you said) i don't think it's Scolopendra susbpinipes japonica.

So we're stuck on Scolopendra multidens or Scolopendra subspinipes cingulatoides.

Again: I think S. subspinipes cingulatoides and especially description of S. multidens must be revised (and distribution maybe expanded to Vietnam) - suppose they are somehow different colorations of the same species. I personally don't see documented differences.

Sorry to let you being stuck like this, but i guess we all made some interesting findings in identification process.

As far as i know the last taxonomic work on S. multidens was done in
Chao J.-L., Chang H.-W. (2003) "The scolopendromorph centipedes (Chilopoda) of Taiwan"
and they removed S. multidens from subspecies status of S. subspinipes because their males lack genital appendages (in opposite to S. subspinipes). I'm not sure if that taxonomical work is adequate enough to justify the replacement step.

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 02:55 PM
i still have some question about it
7.5cm, i don't know what it mean, but two of my pede more longer than it
first pede, mine are 12cm and 13cm, and so far the biggest one be caught is 15CM(so maybe the max size is more long), the second i said it is very big, both red leg or orange leg, more is longer than 20CM(than is why i think it is dehanni before) , and multidens can easy grow 20CM too

another features let me mind, the second pede have a red head, i feel that is a important features to show it is a multidens(all the multidens should have a red head), but the first the head and body have the same colour, and its body colour is very like a Sc. sub.subspinipes( the side of its body is dark gray, that is same with Sc. sub.subspinipes"Philippines"or "Malaysia", but other Sc. subspinipes(like dehanni or mutilans) are white),and the antenna have a special colour different from anyother part of its body

my idea is the two pede should different species, first is Sc.sub.cingulatoides(maybe others), second is Sc.multidens(dark colourful)

by the way,now, multidens be sold in china are all be caught in southwest of china, i have mark it by red round in the map, very nearly Vietnam, Burma
, and laos, so why multidens can't distribution in Vietnam? and i know the same colour multidens live in japan and Okinawa islands too(i mark it by blue round)
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13054

peterbourbon
05-02-2009, 03:20 PM
Hi,

i agree totally and i also excluded S.s.japonica because of size and distribution (maybe it even doesn't exist and the myriapodologists only examined young specimen of S. multidens in a japanese colorform), i think the second one is most probably S. multidens (darker color form).

Regarding the first one: I'm not sure if it's S. multidens or S. subspinipes cingulatoides - coloration is not a reliable feature and you can't distinguish (sub)species only by coloration. Attems does not say anything about the coloration of cingulatoides, he just states the thick terminal legs that you can also see in S. multidens - hence i only see they differ in coloration of headplate. Personally i'd say that's not enough to distinguish a subspecies from even another species.

If i had both pedes in my collection i would label them as
(1) Scolopendra cf. subspinipes cingulatoides
(2) Scolopendra multidens

At the moment I find it's not possible to say exactly what the first pede is (multidens or s. cingulatoides) - we need a reliable revision of Scolopendra subspinipes - species.

Regards
Turgut

西行寺 幽々子
05-02-2009, 03:35 PM
thanks for your help and all the information you give me

Scolopendra cf. subspinipes cingulatoides
Scolopendra multidens
i think that is a good idea too, i will correct the ID of my collection

at the beginning, i just feel i mistake a ID of a old pede, then go to here to ask, but next, it lead so many question and do many discussion :)

but at least, i correct two of my low-level error, i think that is enough

thank you again