Help from the horse people

Laceface

Arachnoknight
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I have been helping a coworker with her horses. She has four, one of whom is an utter terror, who I have NO idea what to do with anymore, and the other is just a chicken to catch.
This horse, Thunder, seems scared of the halter/lead, though he could just be playing. If you walk towards him, he will start to back up if you get too close. If he sees anything in your hands, he turns and walks/runs off. When you do catch him, he is a sweetheart, but apparently the only way they can do so is to toss a lead over his neck while he is in his stall.

Last time I played with him, I would walk towards him and stop if he started to get nervous, wait for him to settle down, and start forward again. If he saw the rope, or if I moved my hands he was gone. Treats do not entice him, and even empty handed he doesn't like his head touched. How can we work on fixing this?
 

Aurelia

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Approach him from the side, adopt a passive stance-eyes down, arms relaxed. Walk in a zig-zag pattern towards him. Don't touch his head, pet him on the neck. Would you like your face being touched by someone who just walked up to you? Have you tried putting the lead rope over his neck before slipping on the halter? I doubt that the rope or halter is the problem, it's probably your body language. If you stop when he gets nervous, that means you're nervous too. Horses like leaders, and if you're not confident, then you're going to make him nervous.

I think some ground work in the round pen to gain his trust would also help, but it can also be overdone. I'd recommend getting help from a professional.
 
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Teal

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I would start by moving him into a smaller enclosure.

How old is he? What is his history like?

Most horses that are catch shy, are so because they are either high strung enough to be that flighty, or have had bad experiences.

Being that horses are prey animals, their first instinct when approached is to flee.

They are very curious, and like to follow though... so if you approach him and he starts to back up, turn around and either walk slowly backwards towards him, or turn around and walk away a few steps and then stop. If you are staring at him, you are acting like another animal that wants to hurt him.

Aurelia had great ideas about moving with eyes low, arms loose, and walking in a strange pattern instead of just straight for him.

Always approach from the side with a shy horse. Prey animals grab horses by the head/neck a lot of times, so something coming at them straight on is viewed as a threat. Approaching from the side is a little less threatening.

Always talk softly and calmly... they DO listen.

Is the horse being haltered every time someone approaches him?

I would recommend just going out there and spending time with him. Sit in the middle of the round pen and let him come up to you (unless you have fear of being trampled, if he's high strung). If you don't feel comfortable with that, lean against the fence on the outside with your back to him and just talk. These things are always how I start the gentling process with horses that are new to me, and I end up with puppy dog horses that will come right up and put their head on your shoulder anytime you go out to them. It works well for horses that don't like to be caught... because they are allowed to express their curiosity.

I've never written up about how to work with a catch shy horse before, I've only shown people.. so I hope some of that made sense! lol
 

reverendsterlin

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I would approach him with treats. Get him used to that and then give him treats when you approach him with a halter lead, still give him treats when you approach him with and place a halter on him. Make the experience rewarding for him.
 

thumpersalley

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You can also keep him in an arena or round pen with his halter & lead on after youve caught him from his stall. Let him drag that around for a little while, stepping on it & so on. In the horses mind, they cant blame you for them stopping because they stepped on it when you werent near them & seem to accept being walked up to. Use body language too. When they turn left, you turn with them, like cutting cattle. Walking them along the arena or stall. Kim
 

Laceface

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When I approached, I did the eyes down, from the side. I didn't think about the strange pattern, I'll start on that next time.

He isn't running because he is high strung, it is definitely because he doesn't want you to touch him. When ever I do get to him, I always hold out my hand and let him make contact.

They don't have a round pen, but I could stick him in the smaller half of their pasture and just hang out and see what he does, he is curious, he just loses his nerve if you reach for him.

As for the treats, I don't want to do anything treat related with any of these horses. The 3yr old has zero manners, and I don't want another reason for him to bite, if he knows I have treats on me.

Thunder, the shy horse, is 6 or so, and I do not know his history. Just that they got him about 6 months ago, he has about a 1 inch scarred tear in his bottom lip, and he doesn't like being haltered.
 

Aurelia

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It really sounds like you need a professional to work with both of these horses. People who don't know what they're doing with horses can easily make bad habits worse, even if they have the best of intentions. Trust me, I consulted my riding instructor when I saw this thread. A professional can see the horse in person and pinpoint the problem. We can't do that on a message board.
 

Laceface

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I'm fully aware of that, but she doesn't want to do that. My sister even offered to come work with em for a week, if the owner would pay her plane ticket, but she doesn't have the money for it. And I know, that is horrible. (My sister is very good with horses, riding with lessons for 20 or so years, and has fixed many problem horses). I'm really just hoping to at least make it safer for her to be around them.
 

bitzy1

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I have been helping a coworker with her horses. She has four, one of whom is an utter terror, who I have NO idea what to do with anymore, and the other is just a chicken to catch.
This horse, Thunder, seems scared of the halter/lead, though he could just be playing. If you walk towards him, he will start to back up if you get too close. If he sees anything in your hands, he turns and walks/runs off. When you do catch him, he is a sweetheart, but apparently the only way they can do so is to toss a lead over his neck while he is in his stall.

Last time I played with him, I would walk towards him and stop if he started to get nervous, wait for him to settle down, and start forward again. If he saw the rope, or if I moved my hands he was gone. Treats do not entice him, and even empty handed he doesn't like his head touched. How can we work on fixing this?
what i would do is i would approach him with treats get HIM to come up to you. pet him somewhere else than his head or his neck once he gets used to your touch, gentelly and slowely put the lead rope up around his neck wait a few more minutes and let him no that you mean no harm. once he is calm again put on the halter. give him a treat every time you put on a new tack or every time he lets you touch or get near him. if that doesnt work tie him in the stall put the tack on him and wait till he cools down, also do some research and see if any of the horses used to be abused or had a bad experience with tack or riding or a carless owner. try this every day if he is not showing improvment. hope fully this helps. thnx
bitzy1{D
 

bitzy1

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When I approached, I did the eyes down, from the side. I didn't think about the strange pattern, I'll start on that next time.

He isn't running because he is high strung, it is definitely because he doesn't want you to touch him. When ever I do get to him, I always hold out my hand and let him make contact.

They don't have a round pen, but I could stick him in the smaller half of their pasture and just hang out and see what he does, he is curious, he just loses his nerve if you reach for him.

As for the treats, I don't want to do anything treat related with any of these horses. The 3yr old has zero manners, and I don't want another reason for him to bite, if he knows I have treats on me.

Thunder, the shy horse, is 6 or so, and I do not know his history. Just that they got him about 6 months ago, he has about a 1 inch scarred tear in his bottom lip, and he doesn't like being haltered.
t
that scarred tear could have been from the bit, you are going to have to patient and retrain him. try the treat thing but keep the other horse in the stall
 

Laceface

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Pfft, you can go up to that horse with treats, he'll take em, but you sure aren't touching em!

I doubt it's from a bit, its dead center on his bottom lip. Who knows what it is from, but they use a hackamore on him, for fear that a bit will hurt it (it wont)
 

Aurelia

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what i would do is i would approach him with treats get HIM to come up to you. pet him somewhere else than his head or his neck once he gets used to your touch, gentelly and slowely put the lead rope up around his neck wait a few more minutes and let him no that you mean no harm. once he is calm again put on the halter. give him a treat every time you put on a new tack or every time he lets you touch or get near him. if that doesnt work tie him in the stall put the tack on him and wait till he cools down, also do some research and see if any of the horses used to be abused or had a bad experience with tack or riding or a carless owner. try this every day if he is not showing improvment. hope fully this helps. thnx
bitzy1{D
NO NO NO NO NO! You NEVER train a horse with treats, you train a dog to shake hands with treats, horses are VERY smart animals and can easily manipulate anyone gullible and stupid enough to try and "train" them with treats. Someone will get hurt eventually. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
 
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arachyd

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Are his ears back when he's trying to keep from being caught? If they're perked up he's probably playing with you but if they're back (flat back, not just pointed backward to listen to you as he leaves you in a cloud of dust) he may be scared. If you don't want to use food treats you can try grooming "treats". I've had luck with horses that didn't want to be touched by making a point of always approaching with a rubber curry comb in my hand. Few horses can resist a good, vigorous currying once they get a little used to it. This is a good time of year for it as they start getting itchy from shedding. I've had some of the most skittish mares go from running circles around anyone in the pasture to walking up to me and grunting in ecstasy while I'd curry their bellies. Gradually introduce a lead line. If he runs try simply walking away a short distance and ignore him for a little while. He may come back to see what you're up to, giving you another chance to get close. It works with some horses. The above suggestions, especially about using an indirect approach are good. It does sound like the horse had an injury which made him head-shy.
 

bitzy1

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NO NO NO NO NO! You NEVER train a horse with treats, you train a dog to shake hands with treats, horses are VERY smart animals and can easily manipulate anyone gullible and stupid enough to try and "train" them with treats. Someone will get hurt eventually. :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
just tryin to help. im young and dont know much i was hopeing some of my words can help someone
 

bitzy1

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Pfft, you can go up to that horse with treats, he'll take em, but you sure aren't touching em!

I doubt it's from a bit, its dead center on his bottom lip. Who knows what it is from, but they use a hackamore on him, for fear that a bit will hurt it (it wont)
i didnt know exactly where the scar was located some horses are very sensitive in the mouth area. how deep is the scar?
 

equuskat

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Some good suggestions have been made, especially Aurelia's first post, but I have one thing to add:

In my 25 years of riding and 15 years of training professionally, including two stints under Grand Prix trainers, CONSISTENCY FIXES PROBLEMS.

Horses thrive on routine. Going to catch a horse at the same time every day and including feeding and grooming in a regular, daily routine solves SO MANY problems.

My mare, Nacho, was UNCATCHABLE for several years, and thus did not get wormed or have her feet trimmed regularly by her previous owner. I took her for training for a while, and had to work her every day and had her on a strict turn-out/in, feeding, and training schedule. The horse's entire attitude changed. Once dangerous, hard to catch, and flighty, she is now a horse that I'm not afraid to put other people on. Even after being turned out and neglected for 2 years after I trained her but before I ended up rescuing her, Nacho allowed me to approach and catch her.

This can be achieved without a barn, too - just put the horse in a smaller pasture and catch him daily. Don't ride him every time he is caught. Groom him, rub on him, then turn him loose again. Rinse, repeat.

It's so frustrating to have a horse you can't catch!
 

Laceface

Arachnoknight
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Bitzy- it's a full out tear about an inch to half an inch long, all the way through. His ears start out forward, but if your hands move, or when you start to get close, they go back. He isn't playing, he is scared. Even if you offer him a treat, he is incredibly cautious about how he takes it.

After last time when we were just trying to get the horses to run, and Jasper reared up biting at me, and would NOT back off, (even when I held my ground, smacked him, etc) I told her I can't help her with him, she needs a professional. I still work with the mini, and the yearling, but not the 3yr old. He needs more then I can give!
 

Shell

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Some good suggestions have been made, especially Aurelia's first post, but I have one thing to add:

In my 25 years of riding and 15 years of training professionally, including two stints under Grand Prix trainers, CONSISTENCY FIXES PROBLEMS.

Horses thrive on routine. Going to catch a horse at the same time every day and including feeding and grooming in a regular, daily routine solves SO MANY problems.

My mare, Nacho, was UNCATCHABLE for several years, and thus did not get wormed or have her feet trimmed regularly by her previous owner. I took her for training for a while, and had to work her every day and had her on a strict turn-out/in, feeding, and training schedule. The horse's entire attitude changed. Once dangerous, hard to catch, and flighty, she is now a horse that I'm not afraid to put other people on. Even after being turned out and neglected for 2 years after I trained her but before I ended up rescuing her, Nacho allowed me to approach and catch her.

This can be achieved without a barn, too - just put the horse in a smaller pasture and catch him daily. Don't ride him every time he is caught. Groom him, rub on him, then turn him loose again. Rinse, repeat.

It's so frustrating to have a horse you can't catch!
+1 to everything here.

I'm sorry I just noticed this thread. I have 27 yrs riding and 15 as well, of professional training (Morgans are my main breed, and have trained and shown a few to World Championship titles at our breed's Worlds, as well as many other Morgans and countless other shows and nationals etc. Also worked a # of years training and riding thoroughbred racehorses, and a little bit of other breeds and disciplines thrown in for good messure lol.) Consistency, absolutely is key. I was actually going to post something pretty much the same as what Equuskat wrote, then I read hers lol So i will just agree. I have used the catch daily and just "play with them" tactic with hard to catch horses and it works.

One of my old mares that I used as one my lesson horses for the kids and new riders got to the impossible to catch point. I leased her to a handicapped riding school one year as I was so busy with shows and young horses in training that I had stopped giving lessons for the season. It turns out they decided they didn't need to use her but never told me, so they left her in a fairly large paddock for the whole show season. Laura was a sweet mare but always a cheeky one, by the time she was to come home it took me 3 hrs to catch her. Once I got her home, I put her in the round pen (my lesson horses and non show horses live outside in paddocks with run in sheds.) I caught her daily, sometimes I rode her, other times just groomed or "played", soon enough she had stopped running laps around me every time I went in.

Of course, Laura wasn't afraid, it was all a game to her. I have used this same method on a few horses I have had in for training that were genuinely scared and had been mistreated etc. As well as on a polo pony for an old boss of mine, that had literally been untouched in a 5 acre field for 5 years (you should have seen its poor feet.) It has always worked for me. It takes time and can be frustrating, but it works.
 
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Laceface

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Because of her set up, and the extent to which Jasper is dangerous, I decided that I don't want anything to do with them-other then the mini.

Her stalls don't have doors, and I have no way to keep jasper out of the way to play with Thunder. When Jasper wants in your space, he will rear,bite, and strike at you to get it. I had to actually thwack him hard, repeatedly with a crop and he was STILL rearing, and trying to bite me. No thanks to that.
 

Shell

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Because of her set up, and the extent to which Jasper is dangerous, I decided that I don't want anything to do with them-other then the mini.

Her stalls don't have doors, and I have no way to keep jasper out of the way to play with Thunder. When Jasper wants in your space, he will rear,bite, and strike at you to get it. I had to actually thwack him hard, repeatedly with a crop and he was STILL rearing, and trying to bite me. No thanks to that.
One of the racehorses I rode was like that. He was pretty good to ride (occasionally he would rear but not like on the ground.) He was absolute HELL to work with on the ground. If you don't feel comfortable, then best not to push it. Im surprised you chose the mini over the big horses though lol I trained/showed mini's for a year for a friend, and those little buggers were pure evil in a cute little body lol. The adorable little pinto filly actually bit the owner so hard on the nose that she needed 18 stitches! I understand alot of them acting that way as they get treated more like dogs then horses. However the women I worked for used to train QH's and she treated her mini's like regular horses, but they were still demons.
 
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