Do Ts sleep?

I have been puzzling this question over ever since I got into spiders - I mean, they stay in one place for so long, never moving, so what are they doing with themselves?

In some ways they remind me of cats - staying motionless for long periods of time, saving their energy, only to burst into action if there is danger, or something prey-like walks by.

And of course, if I had to hold my breath every time I walk, I don't know if I would be the busiest walker either...

Anyone know? :?

Greensleeves

i think mine sleeps b/c it scrunches itself up and then doesn't seem to notice when crickets crawl on it, but who knows?

I've seen stuff that resembles sleeping - whether it is or not.

Sometimes, I pick up the cage of one of mine, and move it to a spot where i can get the T out.

Sometimes they move when I move the cage, sometimes they move when I brush them initially.

Sometimes, however, I can move them, brush them, and they don't move at all. Then all the sudden after repeated brushing, it'll snap out of it and start moving as though it just "woke up".

Whether it is ACTUALLY sleeping or not is another question. Most to all animals sleep though - so I'd think spiders have periods of even more reduced brain (or whatever it's called) activity.....:?

I'm convinced they do or atleast they go into moments of no activity so you figure their brain would be resting too?

I've had many instances that if they were awake they would have known I was around a long time ago (the T sixth sense). But, then I startle them by either cleaning their cage or giving them water and they freak out running around frantically looking for a place to hide.

Seems like the symptoms of someone in a deep slumber only to get a rude awakening. Or like you said like a cat. Have you ever scared a sleeping cat? They react much the same way

Jim B.

And if you have ever noticed if you startle them they show those groggy symptoms like the just woke up.

Like:
"Where's my hide, where's my hide? It was just here a minute ago?"

Jim B.

hello!

waiting on a foot of snow

as for the question at hand, part of it depends on your definition of "sleeping" -- the other part is the actual research regarding T neuroscience.

i'm taking this wicked Invertebrate Neurscience class starting in 2 months. I know we have a module on Invertebrate Neuro Circadian Cycles, so we should cover all of the theories and new research of T's and Neurscience.

I'll of course bring back any and all information regarding T's and their neuro system... it's a part of T-studies that is VERY open to research (as is most of the knowledge in the T field!).

at any rate, i'll can't wait to start doing my own research in the T-neuro area, and I'll definitely bring some of the big stuff we study to the boards!

take care,
Dave

p.s- as far as a concise little "intro to T-brains", here we go:
In the field, the term "supraesophageal ganglion" (SEG) is usually used. It refers to the three major areas above the esophagus (hence, 'supraesophageal') and is composed mainly of ganglia and neuropils (hence 'ganglion'). There three major areas are (anterior to posterior):

(1) protocerebrum. These are the "newest" and highest parts of the brain, also controlling vision, proprioception (where the T body parts are in space), balance, etc. Interestingly enough, the optic nerve has its corpus and terminus in the protocerebrum. Also in the protocerebrum is the 'corpus' (this is basically a central meeting and switching place for T ganglion)

(2) the deuterocerebrum. This area mostly controls the reduced antennae, spinnerets and silk production (though there is a silk-arguement i think, regarding where in the ganglion the T controls the production of silk).

(3)the tritocerebrum. This part of the brain focuses mostly on the oral parts (chelicerae, esophagus, etc..). It is argued that this part of the brain partly controls venom release, but its in debate right now.

so thats a VERY SIMPLE BASIC breakdown. if anyone wants to talk about T neuro, drop me a PM or email!

"supraesophageal ganglion"

Click to expand...

Go Dave


FINALLY something scientific

Do share more.

Originally posted by abstract
I've seen stuff that resembles sleeping - whether it is or not.

Sometimes, I pick up the cage of one of mine, and move it to a spot where i can get the T out.

Sometimes they move when I move the cage, sometimes they move when I brush them initially.

Sometimes, however, I can move them, brush them, and they don't move at all. Then all the sudden after repeated brushing, it'll snap out of it and start moving as though it just "woke up".

Whether it is ACTUALLY sleeping or not is another question. Most to all animals sleep though - so I'd think spiders have periods of even more reduced brain (or whatever it's called) activity.....:?

Click to expand...

Yeah the same thing happens with my rosie and whenever it dosen't move its body is reasting on the soil not raised above the soil

mike

also guys snakes don't have eyelids so it seems like they are not sleeping so maybe Ts are sleeping we just can't see it because we are so used to seeing animals close their eyes when they sleep

sure thing marcie!! I'll make my entry back onto the boards with scientific stuff, instead of the normal crap i prattle off

but seriously, part of the whole question depends on what is meant by "sleeping" -- It also neccesarily depends on your opinions on the actual neural structure of the T to begin with! Then you have to factor in the actual research thats been done...
...



but that doesn't mean there's an easy answer right now


later
dave

Originally posted by RugbyDave
sure thing marcie!! I'll make my entry back onto the boards with scientific stuff, instead of the normal crap i prattle off

but seriously, part of the whole question depends on what is meant by "sleeping" --

Click to expand...

I would think it mostly being unconcious versus concious. Granted T's aren't likely to be pondering the nature of the universe but they are aware of their surroundings and themselves and are thus concious. The thing that makes me think they are "self aware" is the difference in personalities within a particular species. What else could account for the differences if it were simply a windup toy that acts 100% on instinct and is "preprogrammed"? Across a particular species sure there are general common behaviors but then you find the same in human beings. As far as them sleeping actually goes it would seem to me that if they *weren't* sleeping they would never get surprised and I've seen mine get surprised several times as others have mentioned here. Sometimes you can wave your finger around in front of it's face and it does nothing, other times it will see you coming and it will maybe move or adjust it's position, and others it clearly didn't know you were there and acts startled.

Anyway that's my two cents.

I've never been comfortable with the idea that Ts are mindless automatons. They are capable of learning through observation (i.e. Darrin's waterdish tapping Ts), not just the usual conditioned reflex behavior that we take for granted. I tend toward the view that they're more complex than most people think, so I suspect that they may "sleep".

With regard to proving that they "sleep", unless someone wants to hook up an EEG to a T. blondi (or other large T), I'm not sure how to figure this out. And BTW, when you anesthetise a T or cool it down until it's "unconscious", how do you describe the T's neurologic status under those conditions? Given the apparent lack of information, the best you can say is that their behavior appears to indicate that they sleep. This isn't a trivial observation; you don't want to startle a large, defensive T into biting you.

@longbord1,
I don't know if snakes "sleep" but I have noticed that they will close down their pupils while lying motionless. If you "wake" them, the pupils open up and they become obviously alert to their surroundings. I noticed this behavior when I had two Boa constrictor imperators.

Karen N.

Ts aren't simply automatons, I don't think, but I have a hard time finding them to be self-aware. While it is true that there are some remarkable animals that can do some incredible things with vision, memory and adaptation with not much in the way of hardware to work with, there simply doesn't seem to be enough 'stuff' to power actual consciousness in Ts. Their brain is very large and advanced, with 'combined' ganglia, for an invertebrate, but they are still limited. I also don't feel that they sleep the way we do. I envision it more like standby mode on a computer monitor - if nothing is going on for awhile their neural network drops into a kind of passive state of non-activity until something, external or internal, sets it into 'active mode' again.

Adrian

I think the whole point IS that we'll definitely never fully know these things...

research MUST be taken with a grain of salt, but with an eye towards the questions....

these things can go hand in hand, and while i see both sides to the question, I, too, disagree with the theory that T's (and other inverts for that matter) are just mindless beings, with the "four F's"... but thats not the point here

the research in the Invert world is quite fascinating. I still dont have a great grasp on all of the methodologies. My advice to anyone wondering these things would be to peruse the Journal of Arachnology.

That being said, you must remember, ---> research should be done not to prove, but to fail to disprove. <---Some people get caught up in these debates, and forget that alot of researchers just want to dig deeper to see whats really going on.. or other researchers do what they do in order to rule something out....

either way, it's true that the research and theories are fascinating! I mean, literally, I find most people's theories on Ts (who have truly thought things through, of course) enthralling.

While its all fun and interesting and good for me to theorize, I can't wait to bring back more technical stuff... all this new research going on is amazing! It will be interesting to debate and talk about!

take care all
dave

(also, we've discussed this before too ((search "tarantula memory"), but like i said, alot of this depends on your thoughts on the T-neural system. Anyone else have any other home-cooked theories?)

and for what it's worth, T's do have the largest brain of all the inverts, which is why most of the studies are done on Ts... imagine, getting paid to do field and lab research on Ts

good question, and one that was asked tonight during my tarantula presentation to the Young Naturalists Club at a local school.
I told them that nobody really seems to know, and that more research is needed...
Interesting stuff!

Ok, would you please stop giving DUH answers like "depends on what you mean by sleeping."

I think we can safely assume that the original thread starter meant the word sleep to mean generally that the temporary resting state of the higher brain functions (no, not the mammal or primate version of higher brain function either so don't give me that crap), and not necessarily the mammal version that involves REM.

Although I have taken many bio classes, none of them was anywhere around neural science.

But personally, I think they do need to "hibernate" and "reboot" every once in a while. Can't imagine any creature having to be fully conscious for 20-30 years at a time.

i wouldn't be surprised at all if they go into periods of mental dormancy...

it may be sleep or it may not be, but it is probably similar...

from what i understand scientists don't really understand exactly why people sleep. so i doubt they'd be able to compare what invertebrates do to humans.

hello all

i'm not answering questions with "depends on what you mean by sleeping" ..

i mean, it really does depends on what you mean by sleeping .. sleep is more than just what you said, and some people may look at it as a stopping of brain activity .. some people may look at it as actual sleep... some people may look at it as nothing more than "sleep mode"... some people may look at it as a stopping of neural activity...

so it does depend, but thats not answer -- actually, thats what should be driving the actual question.

take care all!
dave

Originally posted by belewfripp
. . . I envision it more like standby mode on a computer monitor - if nothing is going on for awhile their neural network drops into a kind of passive state of non-activity until something, external or internal, sets it into 'active mode' again.

Adrian

Click to expand...

That sounds like sleeping to me. Nobody ever claimed they *dreamed* like people.

Sounds dead, sounds... "sleep," sounds computerized, and sounds dead again.

[QUOTE!

(1) protocerebrum. These are the "newest" and highest parts of the brain, also controlling vision, proprioception (where the T body parts are in space), balance, etc. Interestingly enough, the optic nerve has its corpus and terminus in the protocerebrum. Also in the protocerebrum is the 'corpus' (this is basically a central meeting and switching place for T ganglion)

QUOTE]

Could T's be simllar to Dophin's, who's eyes work independantly. Dolphins will " sleep with one open " to let half of the brian rest. So for a T only 16% of their brain would have to be working to still " keep and eye out " ?