Hi All, Please check out: Studies of Burmese Pythons in Florida: will they expand range? Comments

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Arachnobaron
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I figured that Burmese pythons would not have the capability to survive in non tropical environments. Central Fl is way different than South Fl.
 

findi

Arachnodemon
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Aug 31, 2009
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Hi ,

Thanks for your interest. Yes, very different environments, and this affects even native species. For example, studies have shown that Green Anoles from s Florida cannot survive most winters in the north. Some populations of Burmese Pythons get into temperate regions in their natural habitats, but these are not likely the source of pet trade animals; also, conditions other than temperature affect survival - genetically-moderated heat seeking behavior, quality/availability of shelters, etc.

Interesting to track, despite the potential problems...

Best, Frank
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
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May 1, 2004
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2,290
Hi ,

Thanks for your interest. Yes, very different environments, and this affects even native species. For example, studies have shown that Green Anoles from s Florida cannot survive most winters in the north. Some populations of Burmese Pythons get into temperate regions in their natural habitats, but these are not likely the source of pet trade animals; also, conditions other than temperature affect survival - genetically-moderated heat seeking behavior, quality/availability of shelters, etc.

Interesting to track, despite the potential problems...

Best, Frank
Actually, the pythons that "get into temperate regions in their natural habitats" are Indian Pythons, not Burms. While it has long been accepted that Burmese Pythons were a subspecies of Indian Pythons, a recent study conducted in Germany of their DNA has shown that the Burm split off from the Indian millions of years ago, genetically, and they have different DNA, so the recommendation has been made to the taxonomic community to re-classify them as Python molurus and Python bivitattus, respectively. Unfortunately, I had the site with the information bookmarked on my now-defunct PC, and have not had the funds to do a data transfer to a new hard drive, so I'm relying on my laptop.

Studies conducted in Aiken, South Carolina and in FL concluded that these snakes have no natural "hibernation instinct" and actually will engage in behaviors that are LEAST conducive to survival when exposed to cold temperatures, such as basking out in the open in the cold instead of denning in a warm, artificially-heated den inside the enclosure, which a native temperate species would do. Anyone who has kept Burms will tell you how prone they are to respiratory infections from becoming chilled just for a short time, as in power outages during winter storms, where they might be exposed to temps around 50 degrees F for a few hours, let alone subfreezing temps for days. The entire basis for the inclusion of these and other large tropical constrictors in the Lacy Act, something being pushed very strongly by the AR movement, is the Reed and Rodda document, which has been roundly criticized by the scientific community as a whole, regardless of their "stake" in the debate, for being extremely flawed and unscientific. The report relies solely on the premise that "global warming", a phenomenon which is itself highly controversial and political in nature, will result in such drastic heating of US climate zones that in the next decade the climate of areas of the US as far north as NJ and San Francisco, CA, will be basically the same as that of southern FL now, allowing invasive species from the tropics to proliferate there. It's comparable to using flying dragons as an explanation of UFO's, using one piece of unverified, and largely-fabricated "evidence" to support ANOTHER. It's an excuse to destroy an entire industry which has managed to exhibit at least small growth during a time of economic strife. The recent Congressional hearings on the impact of this and other job-killing policies of this Administration showed that many members of Congress and inside the USFWS really could care less if jobs are lost, a legal industry destroyed, and millions of animals are suddenly without monetary value. One FL Congressman stated that he didn't see how ending the trade in snakes would have any economic impact because "people weren't lining up at Wal-Mart to buy snakes". That's the sort of mentality we're up against.

pitbulllady
 

findi

Arachnodemon
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Hello and thanks for your interest.

While there are many useful net-based sites available, for taxonomic/range information I would suggest relying upon peer-reviewed articles. I'm not sure you haven't, but either way - the designation of the Burmese Python as a distinct species has been accepted by professional herpetologists for some time now. The reference for the definitive article is Sauria 31 (3): 5-11.

It is to the Burmese Python as currently classified, and not the Indian, that I was referring. In southern Nepal and portions of India, Myanmar and China, especially where this species lives near or above 1,000 ft ASL, a means of surviving the winter (dormancy, hibernation, brumation and so on) is necessary. Documentation of the Burmese Python's presence in such habitats is recorded in journals such as Copeia, Herpetologica and Herpetological Review. Unfortunately, these leading journals are not available online to non-subscribers, and are quite expensive (I'm fortunate in having had a career that allowed me access, and also subscribe to several on an individual basis).

As I stated earlier in this thread, and in the article related to it, it is not likely that the current population of pythons in Fla will spread very far; the studies you cite are the same ones I reviewed, and I agree. A USGS study that may bear on your point, which predicted a huge range expansion, has been discredited in the herpetological community (as far as I know).

That being said, and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, genetic differences within a species have been shown to influence cold season tolerance; had the US pet trade founder stock come from the northern, high-altitude parts of the range (unlikely, given the small populations in these areas, political factors, etc.) survival north of Florida might have been possible.

I'm not really qualified to comment on the economics of python control laws, etc.; certainly there are valid arguments on each side of the various issues involved. Having been involved in the investigations of several constrictor and venomous snake-related deaths, and knowing, on a professional level, what is involved in safely working with them, I cannot countenance the keeping of highly dangerous animals in most private collections. Of course, dogs, pigs, horses and others kill people as well, but it is difficult to draw valid parallels between snakes and domesticated mammals.

Regards, Frank Indiviglio
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
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ALL of the snakes in Nepal and India are Indian, not Burmese, Pythons. Again, recent DNA analysis and comparison of the two have separated them into two distinct species, although most taxonomic writings still have not caught up with that, just as you will still see domestic dogs mentioned as Canis familiaris, rather than the officially-accepted C.lupus familiaris. Python bivitattus is not found in India or in Nepal. IF these were actually the same species, it would already be illegal to transport them across state lines without a US Dept. of Interior Endangered Species permit, as the Indian Python, P. molurus, is a CITES Appendix I species.

pitbulllady
 

findi

Arachnodemon
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The leading herpetological journals, Copeia, Herpetological Review and Herpetologica, are current and references to Burmese Pythons therein take the Jacob (Sauria) re-classification into consideration; per the citation I forwarded, the taxonomic change was initiated in 2009, certainly not recent by today's standards, although not accepted by all at that point...but no need to belabor this. If you have an authority esatablishing that Burmese Pythons are not found in Nepal and India, please forward; certainly I could have missed something.
 
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