Am i wrong? 1st T. purchase (B.smithi didn't get paperwork?)

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
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0
Am i wrong? (almost) 1st T. purchase (B.smithi didn't get paperwork?)

Hey guys,

Ill keep this brief. I've been wanting to keep T's for a while now and finally decided to pull the trigger after months of reading.
So.. i finally find a shop that sells 'em and i head out to buy my first B.smithi juvi.
I'd already chosen 1 (out of 3) and paid for her/him when i realised i didn't get any papers (cites) to sign.
When i asked about it they said they never do that because they raised the spiders themselves from slings and offered to give me some handwritten receit (the ones you got in 1950) instead after some bugging.

I was of understanding you (seller and buyer) BOTH need to sign papers stating species, Quantity, age and w/e for all Brachypema's?!
They weren't willing or understanding and i made a fuzz (and luckily got my money back)

I felt just completly uncomfortable with the whole situation, esp. as this would have been my very 1st T.
I'm hoping to raise him/her for a long time and maybe even breed in a couple of years, i can only imagine that's gonna end bad if i don't even have legal papers to show for the mom/dad.

Am i wrong/paranoid?
I don't want any wild caught species even though chances of it being one are low in EU i think/hope.

Thanks
 
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Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
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0
I could try printing out the documents myself and go back tommorow, try to force them to sign.
If their not willing i guess they have problems, aren't to be trusted and i'll never buy my 1st T off them.

?

I'd rather buy of a dealer than a pet store anyway tbh but i can't find anyone close.
 

skar

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
434
I personally wouldn't care, you got what you wanted.
You have a receipt why are you flipping out over a little tarantula they gave you for free ?
 

coldvaper

Arachnosquire
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
122
Maybe in your country its a big deal to get paper work. Here I have never gotten paper work for inverts.
 

DansDragons

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
391
paperwork on CITES species is only important if the species is shipped overseas. if you buy a captive species from within your country there's no need to sign any papers.

someone please correct me if i'm wrong.
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
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0
Nope, got my money back.. didn't take the spider and def. didn't get it for free
Should've been more clear i guess.

Every topic i've read so far (on the dutch boards) indicate that all Brachypelma species are protected under Cites 2.
Stores are mandated to make you sign one (B's only, other T's seem fair game) stating it's captive bred, etc. which is why it's odd they reacted that way when i asked about it.
 

Amoeba

Arachnolord
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
603
Wild Caught Brachypelmas are on the CITES list. Captive Bred slings are not. If you had a bad gut feeling then you act on it but you may have passed on something legit over paranoia
 

metallica

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
2,512
someone please correct me if i'm wrong.
ok, here we go.
in Holland (the op is from Amsterdam), the same as the rest of the EU, there is freedom of movement of persons and goods. tarantulas in this case are considered goods. for CITES II species (Brachypelma species in this case) this means you do not need a CITES permit when you buy the animal in the EU and live in the EU.
you need to prove however that the spider was bought, captive born in the EU from EU stock. this can be a simple declaration, handwritten on standard paper. So the 1950's receipt would suffice for the buyer. for their own paperwork however they would need to write down the name of the buyer.... but this is no problem for the buyer if the seller does not keep correct records.

if you buy CITES II from outside the EU, or export from the EU to a non EU country you will need the whole CITES permit. this is not difficult, nor expensive, it takes 6 weeks and cost ( well it did in 2004) 50 euro.

hope this helps

Eddy
 

High_Rolling_T

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 8, 2010
Messages
140
paperwork on CITES species is only important if the species is shipped overseas. if you buy a captive species from within your country there's no need to sign any papers.

someone please correct me if i'm wrong.
Nope, you're correct. CITES only has to do with the shipping of species(whether it be WC or CB at that) across international borders and nothing to do with the purchase from a local source. Chances are your local pet shop has no idea what CITES even is unless they specifically order CITES species from an international source. In most cases though, local pet shops order from a supplier in the same country who takes care of all the work to get the species in the country.

In addition to Brachypelma spp., CITES II also has Aphonopelma albiceps and Aphonopelma pallidum listed. They don't have any other Theraphosidae listed as far as I see just with a quick check of their site. However, for scorpions they do have Pandinus dictator, Pandinus gambiensis, and Pandinus imperator. I never knew P. imperator was a CITES II species.

Edit: Thanks for clarifying the EU thing Metallica, I forgot all about that.
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
0
Cool, that's helpful for sure

Maybe it's enough (Store name/type: B.smithi/my name&adress/price)
But no signatures or declarations of it's origin and that's what bugged me.

Now, let's say hypothetically i get tired of her after 5 years, or want to breed her/him.
This case i'm the seller. The petstore closed down and the owner is dead.
Why would my brown piece of paper still be enough proof of her being a captive bred, or is it as long as i sell/loan within the EU?

Excuse my stupidity
 

metallica

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
2,512
the piece of paper will still do. but if you sell the spider yourself within the EU, you will have to set-up a declaration. this way the animal can allways be traced back to the original owner/ breeder.

if you have anymore question on specific Dutch/ EU regulation i suggest posting on the Dutch board (www.vogelspinnenforum.nl) or contact the Dutch society (www.vogelspin.com)

cheers

Eddy Hijmensen
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
0
Isn't the whole point of them making me sign those paper to distinguish between the 2 !?!?

All local dealers i've spoken to so far were very quick to mention there's paperwork assigned to Brachy's

Edit: @ amoeba

--

Thanks eddy, i'm still uncertain of HOW they would be able to trace back it's breeder.
I thought that was the point to signing one of those legal papers in the 1st place.

I just want to do this correctly
 
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Najakeeper

Arachnoprince
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,050
You are fine as long as you have a piece of paper from the owner that states it is captive bred.

However, you would have problems if you took the spider out of EU. For example, I can not got to Germany, buy a B.smithi and come back to Switzerland.
 

TaylorW

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
5
Isn't the whole point of them making me sign those paper to distinguish between the 2 !?!?

All local dealers i've spoken to so far were very quick to mention there's paperwork assigned to Brachy's

Edit: @ amoeba

--

Thanks eddy, i'm still uncertain of HOW they would be able to trace back it's breeder.
I thought that was the point to signing one of those legal papers in the 1st place.

I just want to do this correctly
if this is gonna be your first T why are you so hung up on breeding? for all you know it could be a male and not live 5 years. are you wanting a pet T or something to make you some money? my advice is to own a T for a while before you ever consider breeding.
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
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Oct 7, 2011
Messages
0
chill dude, i'm saying hypothetically in 5 years from now, or not.
If it turns out male i'd be totally fine with it, and wouldnt breeding be the right thing to do anyway eventually?
Seems like that's kinda what nature wants it to do before it dies right?

Sorry i gave you impressions i'm rushing into this, or to make money. I promise you i'm not.
I (used to) have arachnophobia and waited/read for months before deciding on a smithi as a good starter to get over my fears.
I do have addictive personality so that means finding out every little thing there is to know about things before diving in the deep end.Also, I dont rule out getting more, but only after settling in and getting comfortable for a good while of my 1st growing up.

It's too look at and feed but mostly knowing it's there should be good enough as i made quite a nice hiding spot for him/her.
I personally think more people should think/look ahead in time a bit when getting a pet, especially one you can't really ''pet''.

But Anyway, all of that is besides the point.
All i ever wanted to know if whether this way of selling/buying a Brachy is OK
and i'm still not even sure
 

metallica

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
2,512
if this is gonna be your first T why are you so hung up on breeding? for all you know it could be a male and not live 5 years. are you wanting a pet T or something to make you some money? my advice is to own a T for a while before you ever consider breeding.
he is not hung up on breeding... he is hung up on getting his paperwork done. wish more people were like this when getting their first tarantula.
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
0
he is not hung up on breeding... he is hung up on getting his paperwork done. wish more people were like this when getting their first tarantula.
Yes,thanks!
wish i could do with that many words

Anyway, i have one more option which is to wait for a really nice and helpful dealer located about 60 miles south of me who was the first person i contacted about his T's (he had a beautiful B.emilia but she's just too big for my 1st, as well as some unsexed juvi smithi's)
He'll either send by mail or deliver personally for a fee, but he can't make it until oct.30th.

Guess i rather wait for him and deal with the person i trust most and who does have the right papers.
I don't want my beauty dying in the mail either :(

Thanks for helping

P.s. Sorry eddy.. i might have just sent you the entire story in dutch to the vogelspinnenvereniging.
realised too late that was you, just ignore it:)
 

metallica

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
2,512
kijk op het Nederlandse forum eens bij beurzen. dan heb je alle keuze en er zijn altijd genoeg mensen die je wel willen helpen bij de keuze.
 

Spiderman24

Arachnoknight
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
224
chill dude, i'm saying hypothetically in 5 years from now, or not.
If it turns out male i'd be totally fine with it, and wouldnt breeding be the right thing to do anyway eventually?
Seems like that's kinda what nature wants it to do before it dies right?

Sorry i gave you impressions i'm rushing into this, or to make money. I promise you i'm not.
I (used to) have arachnophobia and waited/read for months before deciding on a smithi as a good starter to get over my fears.
I do have addictive personality so that means finding out every little thing there is to know about things before diving in the deep end.Also, I dont rule out getting more, but only after settling in and getting comfortable for a good while of my 1st growing up.

It's too look at and feed but mostly knowing it's there should be good enough as i made quite a nice hiding spot for him/her.
I personally think more people should think/look ahead in time a bit when getting a pet, especially one you can't really ''pet''.

But Anyway, all of that is besides the point.
All i ever wanted to know if whether this way of selling/buying a Brachy is OK


and i'm still not even sure
I am going to quote pretty mich everyone but in more.simple terms.

What they dod was legal. You can purchase that brachy without a worry. You can legally purchase that tarantula without having to sign anything. Nesides if you want the tarantula this bad in all honesty it shouldnt really matter. Please dont take this the wrong way but you threw a fit for nlthing. They werent refusing to sign they were lettinf you know there was no need and they would even give you a reciept if t made you feel more at ease. I say you go back bet your brachy and enjoy the beautiful thing without making a scene about signing legal documents. please dont take me for being rude or snide. Its just not a huge deal.

---------- Post added 10-14-2011 at 04:05 PM ----------

Sorry for the typos swype text sucks.
 

Tile

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
0
Probleem op dit moment is dat ik met ziekte thuis zit en dus niet lang kan reizen/staan, anders was ik al wel naar Zwijndrecht, Daarle ofLelystad gegaan. Kon eerst geen dierenwinkels vinden in hier in de stad die ze verkochten (google op vogelspin e.d. leverde niks op)
en het vogelspinforum heeft m'n registratie nog altijd niet goedgekeurd (?) dus ik kan daar wel lezen maar niet reageren.
Misschien erg rustig of de eigenaar op vakantie..

Ik lees al maanden overal dat de Brachy's met verklaring komen en had verwacht dat de winkel hier mee zou komen, dus vandaar de
plotselinge angst en onzekerheid. Wellicht willen ze hun handelaar niet prijs geven ofzo? Op zich begrijpelijk.

Als ik een kassabon heb met in ieder geval het Type, de leeftijd, geslacht (001) en de winkel van aanschaf + handtekening van mij en de winkel dan is dat zo voldoende bewijs?
Ik vind het gewoon bizar dat er zo weinig regulering en administratie is, vooral omdat het een beschermde soort is!
Er staat een document op het forum in het NL dat ik zou kunnen uitprinten een meenemen naar de winkel, maar ik vermoed dat zij over veel info ook niet beschikken (kweeknr e.d.)

Dank!
 
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