C.schioedtei losing a very unexpected battle ;_;

thruthetrees

Arachnosquire
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
107
:cry: I got this little guy a few months ago. The guy that owned it was killed in a hit/run a few months prior to the family rehoming 2 of 4 C. schioedtei w/me. They were rehoming them because they didn't know how to care for them. They had 0 water and totally dry substrate. They were labeled as P. cambridgei. I set them up w/arboreal enclosures immediately w/moist substrate and water (like I keep my P. irminias)... when I took them out to rehouse, I knew immediately they were not Psalmopoeus and was able to ID as C. schioedtei pretty quickly.

The other one has molted 2x since I got them (first molt was within days). This one, no molts. It has eaten about 6x since I got it (refused a few meals here and there). They always, always have water in bottle caps and 2/3 moist substrate. They are usually in their dirt/webs and hate light... This morning I got home and this guy was above his burrow. I was going to try to snap a photo, and very carefully turned the enclosure... He looked a little weird (crumpled up a little) but I've seen some of my avics in weird positions at times... so I didn't really think anything was wrong yet. Then I saw moist white stuff on his mouth parts--I had seen him out 2 days before (I didn't notice any white stuff but he darted into his burrow so fast I might have missed it).

I moved the enclosure a little more so it would actually notice (I thought I was just being very sneaky...) and it didn't move... Then I knew something was wrong. I put an ICU together really quickly and grabbed some Q-Tips--the white stuff wiped right off--the little fella threw a threat display with his first pair of legs and bit the Q-tip. I used 3 or 4 Q-tips and gently wiped his mouth parts (the q-tips were moist) to make sure it was clean... knowing how much they hate light, I put him in the closet with a heat blanket (NOT on the ICU, just near it because it was about 65 here today--it was on a low setting and the ICU never got over 75F). I was too concerned with cleaning him and getting him into a dark quiet place to take photos... He wasn't moving well when I put him in the ICU (very slow/draggy hind legs) but at least was alive enough the throw a threat and grab the q-tip.

About an hour ago I checked him (around 10 hours of him being in the ICU) and he was not in a full curl but already smelled bad... He moved 2 legs a bit so I shut the closet. I figured I would check once more before bed & get some pics in the hopes he could rebound & I might be missing something or doing something wrong. He is really curled up now :( I am certain he's a goner :( Of course I will wait a day or 2 before trash (it already smelled and it was still alive...).

Should I put it in the freezer? I think it's barely alive still but I don't want it to suffer... :cry:

Here is a photo just now ("he" is around 2.5")


And, his enclosure (the lid has a 2" vent)


I was crying when I put him in the ICU this morning... Now I am sobbing like a baby--I don't think there is anything left to do to help him (aside from maybe the freezer? :cry:) and am scared/sad someone will confirm this terrible and probably obvious fact of impending death :cry:

Can anyone shed some light as to why this would happen? As far as I know, none of my other Ts have white stuff on their mouths. I have been here all day and when I have seen a T in view, I have inspected (I have mostly arboreals so that makes it easier to see the mouth parts... nobody else is acting weird, etc...) I put the ICU in another part of the house just encase. I don't think it's nematodes from what I have read & don't think mites--I didn't see anything moving. The white stuff did smell bad though... Again, it wiped off very easy (the q-tip sucked it up).

Does the enclosure look alright? (It was due to be misted in the next day or so, I would mist the substrate 1-2x a week depending on how moist it was)... There was a fuzzy/molding cricket bolus in there--I check enclosures every day or 2 for water & cleaning (as needed!! I don't bother touching my Ts enclosures unless there is a bolus, or empty water, etc and then use tongs to get that stuff out...) He must have tossed the bolus/part of cricket out yesterday after I left.

Is it possible he was in the wrong conditions for too long before I got him? The other one is doing just fine & kept the same way... Fed the same things (LPS crickets & dubias from my colony). Anything I am missing that may have caused or contributed to this?

I can't stop sobbing... I've had a horrible 2 weeks, I spent 5 days sick in the hospital and have been slowly recovering. This just took the horrible to a whole new level...

:cry:
 

synyster

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
532
Sorry for your loss...

What you have described does sound like a nematode infection. Usually when symptoms appear, it is already too late for the spider. I would quarantine the other spiders in the farthest room from where they are just in case, cause if it turns out to be a case of nematode infection, flies (any type) that have come into contact with the sick spider can carry the infection and spread it amongst the other spiders as well. I have heard about entire collections getting wiped out by nematodes and this way. Better be safe than sorry...

Again, sorry for the loss, it alwys sucks to lose a nice T...
 

herpetologyfrk

Arachnopeon
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
16
I had a pokie like this after I rehoused him. It was maybe a week later when I notice he was in a full on death curl and I thought he was a goner. I set up in a ICU deli cup, wrapped it up with a towel, and put some heat on him and within a few days he was better then ever. :)

So I wouldn't reccomend freezing it only because my pokie looked to be much more worse of then your schoedtei.


Good luck and keep us updated!


Nick
 

jbm150

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
1,650
This really sucks, I'm sorry for the loss. I'm not sure it's necessarily nematodes, it might just be "vomit". I had a tiny little versi sling die on me a few weeks ago and it had a little white stuff around it's mouth. A long time ago, while my H. mac was in the throes of DKS (or whatever), it was vomiting up fluid that eventually turned white. If I'm not mistaken, a symptom of nematode infection is the inability to move the pedipalps. During it's threatpose, did it raise it's pedis as well as its front legs?
 

synyster

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
532
I agree, the palps do become unused, but not likely paralysed. It's just that the specimen will always have it's palps curled beneath the chelicerae and if in defense mode, when it will strike, raise it's palps high so that they do not touch the object it's about to strike at.

Jeff did make me think about the fact that I might have eagerly concluded a nematode infection. Let's review the symptoms:

As we said, the palps will not/rarely touch ground.
The spider will produce copious amounts of webbing.
If there was a water dish and the spider had access to fresh water at all times, it usually will spend most of it's time around the dish, or bathing its palps inside.
Complete lost of appetite.
A bad smell will be scent at all times.
And of course, the most common observation is the white mass around the mouth.

I still recommend you to quarantine your collection in another room, even though it is not a sure shot, but will considerably help if it is nematodes. If infected phlorid flies are present in the enclosures though, the infection can easily spread from one to another. Keep us updated on how it all goes and tell us if these symptoms mentioned were present.
 

catfishrod69

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
4,401
yeah that really sucks kate...you might as well keep up the icu, maybe raise his temp to about 80-82...hopefully he will pull through for you...
 

ImDeadly

Arachnosquire
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
104
Another important and probably obvious rule is too always deal with the healthy T's first and then the sick one last. Never interact with the healthy ones after the sickly one under any circumstances. You may already know this but I wouldn't feel like I said all I could if I didn't say it. The moldy bolus is an indication that there could be more mold, maybe even in its burrow. Mold is bad for these sensitive critters. Now that my mind is going, Is it possible that the T under dire circumstances due to hunger and/or thirst may have attempted to eat a moldy bolus thus causing the vomiting and sickness? Anyhow, keep up the ICU and have a second ICU handy for sanitary purposes and if you haven't already, clean and sanitize the enclosure and if necessary set it back up for the T if/when it recovers. Good luck.
 

thruthetrees

Arachnosquire
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
107
Thank you for your input everyone...

This guy didn't lay down much of any webbing after he constructed his burrow (that was done within the first 2-3 weeks he was in his new enclosure and he hardly made any additions to it it web wise--he burrowed out more substrate).

I didn't see him around his water really ever (he was out above his burrow quite a bit but any sound or light would send him bolting for cover). This included night spying (something I frequently do).

He had a decent appetite--I thought he was in premolt several times when he refused meals but sometimes I think it might have just been the prey was too big or not right --like a cricket that hops like crazy as opposed to wandering aimlessly into his fangs... I don't damage or prekill prey for all my Ts--I try to pay attention to which ones are more skittish of boisterous prey and which aren't interested in lifeless meals. This guy seemed to prefer crickets and dubias that were much smaller than him.

I can't remember where his palps where in the defense pose--I was so concerned with the white gunk, getting him out of the light and, into ICU... I am pretty sure I would have made a mental note if they were really high up (thinking they were painful because of avoidance).

His palps seemed to work well--he was moving normally, feeling w/them as he walked and, using with food as far as I saw (he carried his prey back into his burrow very quickly).

I didn't notice a smell in the enclosure after I removed the cricket/bolus (smelled like nasty cricket). And, no smell several days ago when I refilled his water cap (I guess it's good I smell the enclosures--I enjoy that natural smell of moist substrate & know if I have missed bolus)... The T itself didn't smell (the white gunk I wiped off did) and after around 10 hours in the ICU he smelled like dead T (I am guessing that is pretty distinct from the smell of nematode?) despite the leg twitching... Perhaps he was already dying inside and it was some kind of vomit. It was really watery, it was not a thick white gunk. More like milk.

Hopefully, it is not nematodes. I peeked in on him a few hours ago and he was in the same position--the one leg stretched out still. I didn't bother with opening the ICU or doing anything to him to see if he'd move--figured a few more hours of solitude can't hurt since I think he is probably already dead... I put his enclosure in 2 ziplocks and in the garage (way away from my collection) and the ICU is in another room away from the collection as well.

DKS--I had 2 N. chromatus slings that had DKS and he didn't show any movement similar to that.

OH another note... I did not see any white stuff around his rear... just this once in his mouth. I make a point to check mouth parts when they're in view (after keeping up with the famous Melly thread--I always want to be ahead if at all possible).

I think I will go flip him over in a while and see if there is more white--I will take photos of whatever I find.

Thanks again for all your input and support...

---------- Post added 10-26-2011 at 03:09 PM ----------

Another important and probably obvious rule is too always deal with the healthy T's first and then the sick one last. Never interact with the healthy ones after the sickly one under any circumstances. You may already know this but I wouldn't feel like I said all I could if I didn't say it. The moldy bolus is an indication that there could be more mold, maybe even in its burrow. Mold is bad for these sensitive critters. Now that my mind is going, Is it possible that the T under dire circumstances due to hunger and/or thirst may have attempted to eat a moldy bolus thus causing the vomiting and sickness? Anyhow, keep up the ICU and have a second ICU handy for sanitary purposes and if you haven't already, clean and sanitize the enclosure and if necessary set it back up for the T if/when it recovers. Good luck.
I never reuse an ICU... I make a whole new one.

I wash my hands thoroughly after dealing with the sick guy...

I feed more often than most people (I don't power feed though) so I don't think it munched on the bolus.

I checked the burrow for mold thinking that might have been the cause but the burrow is not too moist at all--I never misted over his burrow area, I figured the 2/3 of of the enclosure he wasn't using for his burrow was enough damp to spread around without over doing it...

I was working on the last reply before the others came in...

I will probably just trash the enclosure just because I am paranoid. I'd rather spend $5 to get a new one than worry about sanitizing (if the chemical is safe, etc)...

I wont "bother" him just yet--I'll raise the temp a bit more just in hopes for a miracle.

Thanks again everyone!
 

synyster

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
532
Just want to mention again that usually the symptoms appear when it is already too late...

Then again, I really hope it is something else...
 

thruthetrees

Arachnosquire
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
107
OK... Now I am worried.

I took a photo of a little worm thing that I pulled out of it's mouth. It's probably 1/8th of an inch--it was not moving. I can't find a ruler anywhere to get an exact measurement... I moved it away from the mouth just so you could see the T and the nasty thing that came out in the same shot...



PLEASE tell me it's not nematodes...

I have no idea where they would have come from but I am freaking out!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: That is one single worm thing... I haven't seen any others and in the photo, you can see there's no other white stuff...Since I initially cleaned it, that is all that has come from the mouth. It doesn't look like what I see in nematode photos (long thin things in the masses...).
 
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