Deadly Species?

[Frostbyte]

What makes a person wanted to keep black widows and other really venomous species? I got my first scorp because I was afraid of spiders. I now have over 30 Ts and scorpions but still have a fear of house spiders. Is this normal? Has anyone else dealt with something like this ???

[Angelo]

Originally posted by Frostbyte
What makes a person wanted to keep black widows and other really venomous species? I got my first scorp because I was afraid of spiders. I now have over 30 Ts and scorpions but still have a fear of house spiders. Is this normal? Has anyone else dealt with something like this ???

im not scared of house spiders, i just dont like the fact that they are walking around my house, unlike my tarantulas:D

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by Frostbyte
What makes a person wanted to keep black widows and other really venomous species?

Probably for the same reason why you keep T´s - a interest for the animals.

/Lelle

[Richard_uk]

I was seriously scared of spiders. Even the smallest sp would make me have a panic attack if it came near me. A lot of my friends used to make fun and thought it was great to throw small spiders at me. I wasn't laughing.
A few years back I was after an unusual pet and the one thing I really wanted was a tortoise. I found a supplier and had even got enough money to buy one, but after doing the research I was unsure I would be able to give it the condition it needs. I heard about all the problems that go with hibernation, and how they can die if all the food isn't digested in their stomachs before they go to sleep. I decided that even though I really wanted one, it wpuld be unfair to buy ione and have it die on me.
After a couple of weeks I was watching TV and I saw some scorpions on a tv programme. I thought that, that would be a great unusual pet to have and I located one from a nearby supplier. After i got my first the collection grew, finding each one more fascinating than the last! I found that my interest grew wider and I really wanted to have a tarantula too. I wen't to the shop and the owner placed a red knee on my hand. I was petrified but after a few mins I calmed down and actually felt quite safe with it. He placed it back in its tank and asked me to pick it up. This made me very scared as It kept twiching as I got near! After I managed to hold it I felt great! I bought the spider straight away.
A few weeks later I was at my stepmom's house and she was pannicking because of a house spider in the kitchen (Tegenaria domestica) I fouind that I wasn't scared of it. I simply picked it up in my hands and placed it outside. Since that day, no spiders have scared me. I even have a 'pet' house spider that lives behind the bathroom sink! They are actually beneficial to have around the home so i leave him be.
As for dangerous spiders etc, I am looking to get a DWA license to allow me to keep dangerous creatures here in the UK. I think that as long as you treat them with the respect they deserve, and you realise that they are a hands off animal then you are only at minimal risk.
Bit of a long post but I think its kinda on topic! :D ;P

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by Richard_uk
As for dangerous spiders etc, I am looking to get a DWA license to allow me to keep dangerous creatures here in the UK.

Can anyone apply for a licence to keep potential dangerous species and as long as the applicant follows the rules regarding housing etc he can get permit? Do they check if this person is knowledgable enough to keep these kind of animals in the first place?

Note: I dont knock on you. Im just curious how that system of licencing works.

/Lelle

[Richard_uk]

Hi Crotalus,

Anyone can apply for the license, but not everyone will get it. After applying, stating wich species / how many / do you intend to breed a vet is sent round to check your premises. It is up to them to grant the license or not. They check that you have the knowledge to look after them and have them in secure housing. The rules do alter slightly from county to county. I know of one area where the license is granted after only applying for it. I know another area where the license will not be granted unless you have a special secure building built for the purpose of keeping the dangerous creature. It is also a costly affair, as liability insurance is required before the license is granted and the license is apparently paid for in advance and is not re-fundable if turned down.
I believe most of what I have said is correct but I have not yet applied for a license so i am not 100% sure. The information is what has been passed to me over the few years I have been collecting.

[Kugellager]

The danger of Widow spiders is overrated.

They are capable of causing death but this is very rare. Most people who are envenomated experience no more than nasuea and a headache...it can be worse...ask Indigoeyes.

My experience with them is that they are very easy to work with and to manage when moving from one container to another. The females are not designed to walk on flat surfaces...the males manage much better but have venom that is not considered dangerous.

They are all over the place her and I have found one or more in my garage every year. I have several at any time...very easy to care for and a beautiful species to keep with proper care.

John
];')

[danread]

Lelle,

do you not need any form of license to keep so-called dangerous animals in Sweden? If so, you're really lucky. I would like to keep a few of the more venemous true spiders that are around, but the cost of a DWA license in this country is more than prohibative for me. With the review of DWA in the UK that is being carried out next year, there are going to be even more animals added to the list (although maybe a few taken off), including iguanas, large monitors, and large pythons and boas. Its pretty frustrating, because part of me agrees with it, and part of me really doesnt. To get a DWA license in some counties in the uk costs up to £450 per year.

Dan.

[Wade]

It sounds like the problem with the DWA license is it's WAAAAY too broad in it's definition of what constitutes a "Dangerous Wild Animal". I have no problem with the government wanting to keep track people keeping big cats (and other large mammals) or even venomous snakes (up to a point), since these animals could be a threat to the public at large if they escaped. While iguanas and monitors are certainly capable of inflicting some serious injuries on thier keepers, they're not going to go out and hunt people!

Listing spiders and scorpions is absurd, IMO. If widow spiders were dangerous, we'd be dying by the thousands here in the US since nearly all of us have them in our backyard. It sounds like animals get added to the list based on reputation, weather or not it's justified. I think they even list some non-buthid scorpions which makes no sense whatsoever.

Wade

[G. Carnell]

yea, if only they could just ban all the 50 or so (more? less?) actually dangerous species, and leave the other 500+ alone, so that we can keep them without a permit then everyone will be happy,

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by danread
Lelle,

do you not need any form of license to keep so-called dangerous animals in Sweden? If so, you're really lucky. I would like to keep a few of the more venemous true spiders that are around, but the cost of a DWA license in this country is more than prohibative for me. With the review of DWA in the UK that is being carried out next year, there are going to be even more animals added to the list (although maybe a few taken off), including iguanas, large monitors, and large pythons and boas. Its pretty frustrating, because part of me agrees with it, and part of me really doesnt. To get a DWA license in some counties in the uk costs up to £450 per year.

Dan.

In some countys here yes but only for venomous snakes, in other counties there are no licences needed. No arachnids or other ven animals licenses are needed anywhere in Sweden.

/Lelle

[Crotalus]

And no reptile, no matter how venomous, are hunting people. Why should some be allowed to enjoy their hobby while others are banned? This is exactly how they wrote the law in Denmark - some animals were allowed to be kept while others were banned. And it all was based on ignorance and, i must say, on a herp society that hates venomous snake keeping and their keepers.

/Lelle

[Wade]

Venomous reptiles are becoming increasingly popular here, and the number of venomous shows has tripled in the last couple of years. Every year we hear more and more stories of people getting bit by their pet cobras because they were drunk and wanted to show off for their friends. Subsequently, more and more state, county, and city governments are pushing for exotic pet bans.

This is a shame, because it will ruin it for the responsible keepers. The libertarian in me wants to shout that anyone who pokes their cobra for a laugh deserves what they get, but the realist in me knows the government won't see it that way. If one of these 15 year olds buying gaboon vipers (where the hell are the parents???) gets killed by his pet, we're screwed.

A rational licensing system, that's hard enough to get to discourage impulse buys, but within the means of anyone who's seriously interested, would be a good thing IMO. Grovernments just don't have a great record for coming up with "rational" systems, however. I see a major crap storm on the way.

Wade

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by Wade
Venomous reptiles are becoming increasingly popular here, and the number of venomous shows has tripled in the last couple of years. Every year we hear more and more stories of people getting bit by their pet cobras because they were drunk and wanted to show off for their friends. Subsequently, more and more state, county, and city governments are pushing for exotic pet bans.

This is a shame, because it will ruin it for the responsible keepers. The libertarian in me wants to shout that anyone who pokes their cobra for a laugh deserves what they get, but the realist in me knows the government won't see it that way. If one of these 15 year olds buying gaboon vipers (where the hell are the parents???) gets killed by his pet, we're screwed.

A rational licensing system, that's hard enough to get to discourage impulse buys, but within the means of anyone who's seriously interested, would be a good thing IMO. Grovernments just don't have a great record for coming up with "rational" systems, however. I see a major crap storm on the way.

Wade

Its the sellers responsibilty not to sell to idiots or minors. Always have a minimum age and iterogate the person before you sell anything. Make him present references that he is capable of keeping venomous snakes.

/Lelle

[Wade]

Originally posted by Crotalus
Its the sellers responsibilty not to sell to idiots or minors. Always have a minimum age and iterogate the person before you sell anything. Make him present references that he is capable of keeping venomous snakes.

/Lelle

Responsible vendors do this, but many do not. The increased popularity of venomous herps has led to many not-so-responsible individuals getting into the act.

Wade

[danread]

exactly. How are you going to ensure that all dealers are responsible? There are always people out there with less than perfect morals looking to make a quick buck. I am torn between the two opinions, on one hand i want the freedom to buy what i want, i know that i will only get something i am capable of keeping and looking after saftely. On the other hand, there does need to be some degree of regulation because of the idiots out there. I think some sort of test, plus a reasonable fee, just to show you are serious would be a good idea for some animals, especially the more venemous ones. And i'm not totally against the idea of something similar for large lizards and snakes. There are far far too many negrlected and mistreated boas, pythons, iguanas, and monitors in this country because someone bought a small cute reptile and then quickly found it outgrew their capability to keep it. Some sort of licensing might be a good idea, but not so it is massively prohibative to serious keepers. I think something along the same lines for venemous spiders and scorpions.

Dan.

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by danread
exactly. How are you going to ensure that all dealers are responsible? There are always people out there with less than perfect morals looking to make a quick buck. I am torn between the two opinions, on one hand i want the freedom to buy what i want, i know that i will only get something i am capable of keeping and looking after saftely. On the other hand, there does need to be some degree of regulation because of the idiots out there. I think some sort of test, plus a reasonable fee, just to show you are serious would be a good idea for some animals, especially the more venemous ones. And i'm not totally against the idea of something similar for large lizards and snakes. There are far far too many negrlected and mistreated boas, pythons, iguanas, and monitors in this country because someone bought a small cute reptile and then quickly found it outgrew their capability to keep it. Some sort of licensing might be a good idea, but not so it is massively prohibative to serious keepers. I think something along the same lines for venemous spiders and scorpions.

Dan.

I dont think its possible to stop those kind of people anyway - no matter what the regulations are. But they will be known and nobody will sell to these people and eventually they disappear to another lucrative hobby. I still believe (and know for a fact) that most ven keepers here are responsible and dont sell their animals to anyone just for a few bucks.
Mentorship is a good way for a beginner to get into the hobby, and that show that the person have a genuine interest for the animals.

/Lelle

[Wade]

In the US, the venomous reptile hobby is going through something of a growth spurt at the moment. I think the serious venomous herp keepers need to practice a little more internal policing. I think it would be a good idea for larger herp societies to develop a sort of certification program, where hobbyists and dealers would have to demonstrate a certain level of knowledge and responsibility in order to get certified, and that certification could be revoked if the individual was found to be behaving irresponsibly. The criteria could include husbandry skills, housing, and written out description of the protocol that would be followed in the event of a bite.

This certification would of course not carry the weight of law, but when government does decide to get involved, the serious keepers would be able to step up to the plate and make a solid argument that resposible individuals should be allowed to keep these animals.

On the mentoring idea, the state of Florida actually seems to have rational permiting system. Venomous keepers are required to undergo an apprenticeship with an experienced keeper wherein they help out and learn the ropes before they can get their own snakes. I say this as a non Floridian, the reality may be abigger pain.

BTW, IMO this is all off topic in regards to arachnids. I don't think any arachnids compare to venoumous snakes in terms of risk to the keeper. A scorpion or spider may have extremely powerful venom, but they lack the long distance delivery system of snakes. Widow spiders "dangerous wild animals"? Bah!

Wade

[danread]

I competely agree with you wade, there is far less danger in a venemous arachnid, like you said, far less striking distance and speed of attack. It is a shame, i would like to keep latrodectus species, but the license over here would cost far far more than the cost of the animal, its caging and all of the feeding requirements for the rest of its life!

Cheers,

Dan.

[cotton]

latrodectus and loxosceles make very interesting and quite non-aggressive captives. people just get freaked out, by all the media and urban legend behind these species. Like Wade said most of us here in the states have widows all around our houses, especially if you live in the southern regions. As for venomous snakes... I agree with my herpetologist mentor of many years.... DONT!. If you arent a pro or you are just a complete moron then you have no biz dealing with potential death. I think it casts a bad light on everyone in the herp trade when someone gets tagged, it just adds fuel to the anti-reptile fire.

[G. Carnell]

" Originally posted by danread
. It is a shame, i would like to keep latrodectus species, but the license over here would cost far far more than the cost of the animal, its caging and all of the feeding requirements for the rest of its life! "




if you get the license, i can bring some (L.tredecimguttatus) back from the medeterranean for a cheap price (£7+posting)

the license costs alot yes, but think of all the other cool stuff you can get...

[Crotalus]

Originally posted by cotton
latrodectus and loxosceles make very interesting and quite non-aggressive captives. people just get freaked out, by all the media and urban legend behind these species. Like Wade said most of us here in the states have widows all around our houses, especially if you live in the southern regions. As for venomous snakes... I agree with my herpetologist mentor of many years.... DONT!. If you arent a pro or you are just a complete moron then you have no biz dealing with potential death. I think it casts a bad light on everyone in the herp trade when someone gets tagged, it just adds fuel to the anti-reptile fire.

Im not a pro or a moran but I think I know what im doing when it comes to ven snakes. So why shouldnt I enjoy my hobby...
Thats plain bs if you ask me. As for bites, they can happen even to a pro.

/Lelle

[danread]

Hi George,

Thanks! I'll have a look into it, i know the cost of a dwa license is different in every area, so it might not be to bad where i am.

Cheers,

Dan.

[Lopez]

Can anyone apply for a licence to keep potential dangerous species and as long as the applicant follows the rules regarding housing etc he can get permit? Do they check if this person is knowledgable enough to keep these kind of animals in the first place?

Note: I dont knock on you. Im just curious how that system of licencing works.

/Lelle

Hi Lelle

As Richard has said, yes anybody can actually apply for the DWA. I believe exotic shops have to have them whether they sell DWA or not.
Basically, after applying a local Council inspector will come around and check your premises and talk to you. Basically they want to see locked tanks or at the very least a locked secure cabinet.
Unfortunately, the inspectors often have absolutely no idea what to look for or what they are talking about, meaning that many councils who are lacking an expert will just refuse your application. This is particularly the case in rural areas like where I live.
In addition to this there is the high cost (varies from county to county) and the fact that every new DWA you get has to be declared to the council again (ie if you had one P.nigriventer drop a sac you would be legally obliged to declare every spiderling!)

The thinking behind it is sound but in practice it isn't going to work. If I wanted to keep my favourite species of spider (Phoneutria) then I think I'm mature and sensible enough to provide secure housing for it without needing a fat guy with a clipboard to come round and take £400 a year out of my wallet for the privelage....

[Crotalus]

Hi Lelle

As Richard has said, yes anybody can actually apply for the DWA. I believe exotic shops have to have them whether they sell DWA or not.
Basically, after applying a local Council inspector will come around and check your premises and talk to you. Basically they want to see locked tanks or at the very least a locked secure cabinet.
Unfortunately, the inspectors often have absolutely no idea what to look for or what they are talking about, meaning that many councils who are lacking an expert will just refuse your application. This is particularly the case in rural areas like where I live.
In addition to this there is the high cost (varies from county to county) and the fact that every new DWA you get has to be declared to the council again (ie if you had one P.nigriventer drop a sac you would be legally obliged to declare every spiderling!)

The thinking behind it is sound but in practice it isn't going to work. If I wanted to keep my favourite species of spider (Phoneutria) then I think I'm mature and sensible enough to provide secure housing for it without needing a fat guy with a clipboard to come round and take £400 a year out of my wallet for the privelage....

The license (or whatever i should call it) for ven snakes here works in a similar fashion. Its not applied to the whole country, every region have their own laws (which they would loose if one took it to court). Doesnt effect any arachnid whatsoever.

/Lelle

[Lopez]

The license (or whatever i should call it) for ven snakes here works in a similar fashion. Its not applied to the whole country, every region have their own laws (which they would loose if one took it to court). Doesnt effect any arachnid whatsoever.

/Lelle
Off the top of my head, it applies to all Phoneutria, Latrodectus, Atrax and a few others in this country :(