Anti-algae Solution's Effects on Crayfish

Verneph · Feb 17, 2012

This may not be the correct forum for this, but whatever. A mod can move this if I am wrong. Sorry if I am.

I have a couple of fish tanks, but the one in question has a rather significant algae problem. It's...everywhere. I would like to do something about it, but any anti-algae solution I have found does not say anything in regards to its effects on crayfish/crawdads, which I have two of in this particular tank. The only other thing in this tank is a small Koi fish which makes me hesitant to simply introduce an algae eater as it is generally not recommended to mix tropical fish with "gold fish".

Anyone know if anti-algae solution would hurt my crayfish?

Najakeeper · Feb 17, 2012

I had crayfish years ago but from what I remember, you should not use it with crabs, crayfish, shrimp etc.

Verneph · Feb 17, 2012

Najakeeper said:
I had crayfish years ago but from what I remember, you should not use it with crabs, crayfish, shrimp etc.

I was afraid of that. What you recommend to deal with the algae then, you know, beyond manual scrubbing?

Najakeeper · Feb 17, 2012

Less light and maybe snails?

Verneph · Feb 17, 2012

Najakeeper said:
Less light and maybe snails?

Snails eat algae? Hm, that's a thought then. Though, I'd be concerned about my crayfish trying to eat the snails...

I turn the tank light off every night to simulate a day-night cycle. I suppose I could make it night all the time.

Chicken Farmer · Feb 17, 2012

certain kinds of snails eat algae, and it depends on the algae type. anti-algae products usually do more harm that good, to fish and inverts. if you try a snail try a nerite.

an algae eater or pleco will make more of a mess, since they poop a Lot and can get 2ft, unless you get a bristle nose or other smaller variety, plecos are also tropical.

how big of tank is it? koi can get 3-4 ft. here is an F.A.Q on them. http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/776/

cut down on light unless you have live plants in there. maybe just use the light when viewing. i have 2 goldies in a large tank and they are filthy, i have algae also and i use those magnet algae scrapers. i prefer my tropicals over the goldies, but i got a free tank so that why i have goldfish, they are the fancy type also. will be doing a pond this spring most likely.

Verneph · Feb 17, 2012

Chicken Farmer said:
certain kinds of snails eat algae, and it depends on the algae type. anti-algae products usually do more harm that good, to fish and inverts. if you try a snail try a nerite.

an algae eater or pleco will make more of a mess, since they poop a Lot and can get 2ft, unless you get a bristle nose or other smaller variety, plecos are also tropical.

how big of tank is it? koi can get 3-4 ft. here is an F.A.Q on them. http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/776/

cut down on light unless you have live plants in there. maybe just use the light when viewing. i have 2 goldies in a large tank and they are filthy, i have algae also and i use those magnet algae scrapers. i prefer my tropicals over the goldies, but i got a free tank so that why i have goldfish, they are the fancy type also. will be doing a pond this spring most likely.

The tank is small, only a five gallon and honestly I'm not even sure he's a true Koi fish. He was what I'll just call a "Walmart rescue", if that makes any sense. He's only about two and a half inches long, and hasn't gotten much bigger since I got him. I've been told that Koi's only grow to fit their environment, but I have no idea how much truth there is to that.

A Nerite, you say? I'll look into that.

The Snark · Feb 17, 2012

Algae is the base of the food chain. Anything that kills it has the potential to disrupt all life above it. Find animals such as mentioned above or sucker fish or whatever that lives within the food chain to eat the excess food or modify your ecosystem in some manner. You can also experiment with various chlorine compounds or similar growth inhibitors in an attempt to find the weakest possible solution that does the job, not kill but inhibit algae-interrupt it's growth cycle. As example, start with .01 ppm chlorine and slowly increase concentration until algae can't 'bloom'. Low concentrations won't kill algae or harm other animals, just disrupt the life cycle at the base of the food chain.

Entomancer · Feb 17, 2012

Getting another fish really isn't going to get rid of the algae.

Algae is a primitive plant, so that means it needs light, nutrients, and water. It has the water, but you can control the nutrients and the light to make it go away.

Keep the light on for less time during the day for a while is one way to get rid of it, but a more effective way is to remove its nutrients from the water, namely nitrogenous waste products from the crayfish and the crayfish's food. This is most easily done by changing the water in the tank weekly (about 30% should be adequate) and by making sure that the filter cartridge is changed at least once a month. Another thing you could do to keep the water cleaner (thereby removing the algae's food source) is to buy a secondary filter for the tank; you can never really have too much filtration, and most crayfish species aren't too bothered by the increased flow and like the increase in dissolved oxygen.

Something else to consider about fish is that freshwater lobsters are tough enough to capture and kill or seriously wound most fish near their size; if you got an "algae eater" to eat the algae, chances are that the lobster would eventually kill it, or the fish would get large enough to mortally wound the crayfish in search of a snack (it wouldn't be hard for a larger plecostomus to bite off the antennae or eyestalks of a crayfish). As for snails, you might as well serve your crayfish some escargot; it would make short work of a snail.

Also, there are actually many slime-forming organisms that can get into fishtanks and aquatic setups and form colonies; only some of them are algae, and many of the fish/snails, etc sold as algae-eating animals require much more than just a little algae to sustain themselves. Plecostomus are Loricariid catfish, and most Loricariids will eat plant matter, but are more omnivorous and need their own diet. Loaches are the same way, but don't have the thick armor-like scales of Loricariids, so would be a tasty morsel for your crayfish.

Finally, even if you did get a fish that somehow didn't fight/eat the lobster, and you fed it a well-rounded diet (which is what they really need to do well; you wouldn't feed an Iguana or a Box Turtle iceberg lettuce and expect them to live comfortably, would you?) and it still ate some algae, the fish would be excreting NH3 as a waste product, which just goes right back and feeds algal growth.

So I would just keep the tank cleaner and maybe get a second filter.

Edit: You have a koi, too?

Well, for starters, fish growing to the size of their tank is a terrible lie. If I put a baby great white shark into a 40-gallon, would it just be a pint-sized Jaws? No, it would keep growing and growing, so long as the water remained in good quality (good luck with that in a 40G and it was fed the right diet).

The golfish/koi is the reason why the algae is there. Amongst fish, the goldfish/koi/carp make a *lot* of nitrogenous waste compared to body mass; a 6-inch goldfish would need about 15 gallons of water minimum, preferably more around 20, and it would need 30 shortly after that. Once you move the goldfish/koi, your problems should go away. If you want to give it to someone else, most comet goldfish/koi do better in ponds than in tanks. Once it warms up, maybe you could find someone you know or a neighbor that has a pond and ask them if they want a goldfish for it.

Verneph · Feb 20, 2012

LordRaiden said:
Getting another fish really isn't going to get rid of the algae.

Algae is a primitive plant, so that means it needs light, nutrients, and water. It has the water, but you can control the nutrients and the light to make it go away.

Keep the light on for less time during the day for a while is one way to get rid of it, but a more effective way is to remove its nutrients from the water, namely nitrogenous waste products from the crayfish and the crayfish's food. This is most easily done by changing the water in the tank weekly (about 30% should be adequate) and by making sure that the filter cartridge is changed at least once a month. Another thing you could do to keep the water cleaner (thereby removing the algae's food source) is to buy a secondary filter for the tank; you can never really have too much filtration, and most crayfish species aren't too bothered by the increased flow and like the increase in dissolved oxygen.

Something else to consider about fish is that freshwater lobsters are tough enough to capture and kill or seriously wound most fish near their size; if you got an "algae eater" to eat the algae, chances are that the lobster would eventually kill it, or the fish would get large enough to mortally wound the crayfish in search of a snack (it wouldn't be hard for a larger plecostomus to bite off the antennae or eyestalks of a crayfish). As for snails, you might as well serve your crayfish some escargot; it would make short work of a snail.

Also, there are actually many slime-forming organisms that can get into fishtanks and aquatic setups and form colonies; only some of them are algae, and many of the fish/snails, etc sold as algae-eating animals require much more than just a little algae to sustain themselves. Plecostomus are Loricariid catfish, and most Loricariids will eat plant matter, but are more omnivorous and need their own diet. Loaches are the same way, but don't have the thick armor-like scales of Loricariids, so would be a tasty morsel for your crayfish.

Finally, even if you did get a fish that somehow didn't fight/eat the lobster, and you fed it a well-rounded diet (which is what they really need to do well; you wouldn't feed an Iguana or a Box Turtle iceberg lettuce and expect them to live comfortably, would you?) and it still ate some algae, the fish would be excreting NH3 as a waste product, which just goes right back and feeds algal growth.

So I would just keep the tank cleaner and maybe get a second filter.

Edit: You have a koi, too?

Well, for starters, fish growing to the size of their tank is a terrible lie. If I put a baby great white shark into a 40-gallon, would it just be a pint-sized Jaws? No, it would keep growing and growing, so long as the water remained in good quality (good luck with that in a 40G and it was fed the right diet).

The golfish/koi is the reason why the algae is there. Amongst fish, the goldfish/koi/carp make a *lot* of nitrogenous waste compared to body mass; a 6-inch goldfish would need about 15 gallons of water minimum, preferably more around 20, and it would need 30 shortly after that. Once you move the goldfish/koi, your problems should go away. If you want to give it to someone else, most comet goldfish/koi do better in ponds than in tanks. Once it warms up, maybe you could find someone you know or a neighbor that has a pond and ask them if they want a goldfish for it.

Thank you very much for that information. I was afraid the Koi might be a problem.

I've kept the light off in the tank and algae has already started to discolor a bit but now there is another problem... There's this bizarre white dirt-like stuff at the bottom of the tank. It looks kind of like clumps of wet dust but it almost looks like it's growing on the floor stones. At this point, I'm thinking I need to clean out the whole tank. Thoughts anyone?

Chicken Farmer · Feb 20, 2012

it could be that scum stuff off the top of the water you get if there isn't a filter or enough water movement. i forget what its called. it doesn't hurt anything. to get rid of it, us a gravel vacuum.

Necromion · Feb 20, 2012

typically the rule Ive often been told for goldfish typically is 1 gold fish for every 30 gallons, due to the aforementioned waste problem. However considering the size of the typicall koi I would probably figure one for every 40 or maybe even 50 gallons (a bit ridiculous perhaps but it would help). another thing that would help is to use an over sized filter in the tank like using a filter for a 70-80 gallon tank in a 55 gallon. as this "might" be able to help deal with the excess waste build up.

This site has a lot of information available on gold fish just scroll down and you will see a list of articles on goldfish. they also have a excellent group of people that you can email about your problem and perhaps maybe they can point you in the right direction. http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwlvstkind1.htm

Quazgar · Feb 21, 2012

Necromion said:
typically the rule Ive often been told for goldfish typically is 1 gold fish for every 30 gallons, due to the aforementioned waste problem. However considering the size of the typicall koi I would probably figure one for every 40 or maybe even 50 gallons (a bit ridiculous perhaps but it would help). another thing that would help is to use an over sized filter in the tank like using a filter for a 70-80 gallon tank in a 55 gallon. as this "might" be able to help deal with the excess waste build up.

This site has a lot of information available on gold fish just scroll down and you will see a list of articles on goldfish. they also have a excellent group of people that you can email about your problem and perhaps maybe they can point you in the right direction. http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwlvstkind1.htm

I would think that it (obviously) depends on the size of the koi. A 55 may be overkill for a 3" koi, but probably won't be enough for a 2' one. When I give recommendations to people about goldfish and koi, I usually recommend about 5 gal of water per inch of fish, though that is admittedly a rough and unscientific estimate I use.

Entomancer · Feb 21, 2012

Verneph said:
Thank you very much for that information. I was afraid the Koi might be a problem.

I've kept the light off in the tank and algae has already started to discolor a bit but now there is another problem... There's this bizarre white dirt-like stuff at the bottom of the tank. It looks kind of like clumps of wet dust but it almost looks like it's growing on the floor stones. At this point, I'm thinking I need to clean out the whole tank. Thoughts anyone?

If it looks fuzzy, it's probably aquatic "mold" (protozoan organisms, actually). Now that you have removed the light from the ecosystem, the algae is dying and something else is using the waste from the animals to grow.

Yeah, at this point I would just do a giant water change and attempt physically remove the algae and the water mold (if that's what it is). Don't disturb the gravel though; you probably already have some nitrifying bacteria growing down there, and stirring up the gravel bed too much could harm or kill them. You don't want that; they metabolize NH3 and release NO2 and NO3 (first NO2, which is reabsorbed and converted into NO3); NO3 is much less dangerous than NH3 or NO2, so losing your beneficial bacteria would be bad news.

Verneph · Feb 22, 2012

LordRaiden said:
If it looks fuzzy, it's probably aquatic "mold" (protozoan organisms, actually). Now that you have removed the light from the ecosystem, the algae is dying and something else is using the waste from the animals to grow.

Yeah, at this point I would just do a giant water change and attempt physically remove the algae and the water mold (if that's what it is). Don't disturb the gravel though; you probably already have some nitrifying bacteria growing down there, and stirring up the gravel bed too much could harm or kill them. You don't want that; they metabolize NH3 and release NO2 and NO3 (first NO2, which is reabsorbed and converted into NO3); NO3 is much less dangerous than NH3 or NO2, so losing your beneficial bacteria would be bad news.

Good to know, thank you. I'll siphon out most of the water and clean it as best I can. Don't know how I'll get the "mold" out without disturbing the gravel though.

Chicken Farmer · Feb 22, 2012

most of the good bacteria is in your filter media. gravel vacs were made to clean gravel. all you do is push it down in the gravel. if you don't have on just stir the gravel up while siphoning.

Anti-algae Solution's Effects on Crayfish

Verneph

Arachnosquire

Najakeeper

Arachnoprince

Verneph

Arachnosquire

Najakeeper

Arachnoprince

Verneph

Arachnosquire

Chicken Farmer

Arachnosquire

Verneph

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The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods

Entomancer

Arachnobaron

Verneph

Arachnosquire

Chicken Farmer

Arachnosquire

Necromion

Arachnoknight

Quazgar

Arachnoknight

Entomancer

Arachnobaron

Verneph

Arachnosquire

Chicken Farmer

Arachnosquire