Volker Von Wirth & Haplopelma schmidti "Gold Morph" x S. hainana

I was told that Volker Von Wirth mated these two, but nobody seems to know the results of this. Did Volker ever get a fertile sac from this mating? Did he mate a black morph male with gold morph female or vice versa?

Thanks,

Jake

Hi,

my name is Volker von Wirth and I've never mated Haplopelma schmidti together with Ornith. hainana!

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

my name is Volker von Wirth and I've never mated Haplopelma schmidti together with Ornith. hainana!

Cheers, Volker

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I apologize for not spelling it right...my german is wearing off...slowly but surely.

Either there's a misunderstanding or I have truely been told lies (intentional or non-intentional).

Sorry for the mishab...

Later,

Jake

Hi Jake
If I remember rightly Volker was keeping "longipedum" x lividum crossbreeds for taxonomical study? Probably best to ask him via email though I think it was mentioned in a thread here a while ago.

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

my name is Volker von Wirth

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sorry, but then you are not the right Volker

Eddy

Hi,

Leon is right, I've bred Hapl. sp. "longipedum" with Haplopelma lividum. The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig! I'm preparing the description of the Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" but this will still take some time.

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

Leon is right, I've bred Hapl. sp. "longipedum" with Haplopelma lividum. The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig! I'm preparing the description of the Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" but this will still take some time.

Cheers, Volker

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I am interested to see the crossing experiments between these Chinese Ts:

1) Plesiophrictus guangxiensis X Chilobrachys hubei
2) Plesiophrictus guangxiensis X Chilobrachys jingzhao (i saw this name in Journal J Biol Chem dated June 18, 2004. Any chance to get this rare T?)
3) Plesiophrictus guangxiensis X Chilobrachys tschankoensis (saw this one in Scotts Tarantulas page)

There should be more exciting new species from China awaiting discoveries by westerners. The recent dusty red new Orphnaecus species from Philippines is a good example that more will be coming.

Hi,

Chilobrachys tschankoensis is not identifiable. I had access to the Holotype before 4 Weeks ago, and I can tell that it is a 8 mm (Bodylength) small Specimen which can't be identified, because this is a juvenile!So, if somebody shows a pictures or gives informations about this Species, it is really doubtful that he has this Species!!!
BTW, all this newly described Theraphosid Material from China was described without comparing any Typematerial from the further Theraphosidae from this region. This is nonscientific! Unfortunately I have no contact to Mr. Song, the describer of the new Chilobrachys Species,otherwise I would ask him why Chilobrachys hubei and Chilobrachys jingzhao are not identical to Chilobrachys dyscolus or Chilobrachys paviei, from which I've examined the Holotypematerial!

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

Leon is right, I've bred Hapl. sp. "longipedum" with Haplopelma lividum. The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig! I'm preparing the description of the Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" but this will still take some time.

Cheers, Volker

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Do you have any photos of the hybrid?

Hey Eddy,

I hope all is well with you and that we meet together again at the October Meeting here in Stuttgart. BTW,is this the blue Cyriopagopus in your advatar?



hartelijke groete, Volker

ShaunHolder said:

Do you have any photos of the hybrid?

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Hi,

no!

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

Chilobrachys tschankoensis is not identifiable. I had access to the Holotype before 4 Weeks ago, and I can tell that it is a 8 mm (Bodylength) small Specimen which can't be identified, because this is a juvenile!So, if somebody shows a pictures or gives informations about this Species, it is really doubtful that he has this Species!!!
BTW, all this newly described Theraphosid Material from China was described without comparing any Typematerial from the further Theraphosidae from this region. This is nonscientific! Unfortunately I have no contact to Mr. Song, the describer of the new Chilobrachys Species,otherwise I would ask him why Chilobrachys hubei and Chilobrachys jingzhao are not identical to Chilobrachys dyscolus or Chilobrachys paviei, from which I've examined the Holotypematerial!

Cheers, Volker

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Thanks for the great info! In that case many so-called new species may just be previously described species. Probably Chinese tarantulas have the most synonyms in comparison to other Ts around the world. But that's how science works in China ... too bad.

VolkervonWirth said:

The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig!

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Hi Volker,
It's nice to see someone is taking the time to correctly determine new species. If I can ask, why did you do this experiment? By asking this I'm wondering if no additional stable morphological characters have been determined. Also, is this a case of sympatric speciation or are geographic barriers involved.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve Nunn said:

Hi Volker,
It's nice to see someone is taking the time to correctly determine new species. If I can ask, why did you do this experiment?

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Hi Steve,

My phylogenetic research work is preceded in a good way and now I'm at the level where I have to identify the OTU's. For this, it is neccessary to examine the Holtypes of especially the Type-Species of the different Genera of asian Theraphosidae. Because of this I'd examined a lot of Material from the different Museums of Natural History here in Europe. I've examined Material from SMF, ZMB, ZFMK and MHNP within the last two Years. In February I'll try to examine the important Material of BMNH. It's not only that I examine the Material, I also photograph all the relevant characters, so that it isn't neccessary that the Typematerial will be examined by some furter workers in the future, because every examination destroyes the Types more and more (often the Material is very fragile).They can simply use my pictures. On the other Hand I'm able to compare Theraphosid Material for identification every time with the characters from the Typematerial from which I possess the pictures.
Why did I do the crossbreeding Experiment? There are some Species Concept used by Biologists, but often they depents on human subjectivity, because they are well foundet on character comparison and character assessment. The only Species Concept, which is out of human subjectivity, is that one from Prof. Ernst Mayr. It says:" Biological Species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."[Mayr,E. in Wheeler & Meier (2000): Species Concepts and phylogenetic Theory - A Debate. Columbia University Press, New York]
So, I've tried to find out, whether Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" can interbreed with Hapl. lividum. If such a crossbreed will produce fertile offsprings then both "Species" (better say "form" or "Phenotypes") should belong to one and the same Species - in the sense of the biological Species Concept after Mayr - because they can interbreed and are not reproductively isolated to each other! The result within my experiment is, that there is only one Hybrid which survived 'till today and I'm not sure that this Hybrid will be able to mate and to reproduce himself. To my opinion, because of the actual results of the crossbreeding experiment, there is an evidence that Haplopelma lividum and Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" are real Species, although they are phylogenetically very closely related to each other! From taxanomomical standpoint, I had the impression that both Species could belong to one and the same Taxon, but now with the results of the crossbreeding experiment...!

By asking this I'm wondering if no additional stable morphological characters have been determined.

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There are indeed some few stable taxonomical useful morphological differences between both Species. But I don't want to tell them here. Please wait for the description which will be comming out in the future.

Also, is this a case of sympatric speciation or are geographic barriers involved.

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I don't know,because the whole geografic range of both Species isn't known exactly. We only know some collection areas but it's not clear whether populations of both Species lives sympatrical. Untill now, the only known few collection sites of both Species are not identical!

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

It's not only that I examine the Material, I also photograph all the relevant characters, so that it isn't neccessary that the Typematerial will be examined by some furter workers in the future, because every examination destroyes the Types more and more (often the Material is very fragile).

Click to expand...

Hi Volker,
Excellent! In addition photos (over and above drawings) can be compared in large numbers of all type species in such a brief time. This also helps to eliminate subjectivity of type specimen drawings.

Why did I do the crossbreeding Experiment? There are some Species Concept used by Biologists, but often they depents on human subjectivity, because they are well foundet on character comparison and character assessment.

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Mayr's concept is also what I would believe the most solid defintion of a species to date (within terrestrial Arthropoda anyway). In particular this is why I asked you about sympatric speciation. If in fact the geographic range of both phenotypes crosses, then explaining/locating the isolating reproductive mechanism may be quite challenging. However, just judging the results you have posted would indeed seem to show an isolating mechanism of some sort(I don't know the reproductive morphology of these phenotypes, so cannot comment in that regard) , enough so that the likelyhood of your surviving CB instar being a mule is almost a certainty. It's a shame other researchers don't seem to have enough time to experiment in this regard, GREAT NEWS INDEED!

To my opinion, because of the actual results of the crossbreeding experiment, there is an evidence that Haplopelma lividum and Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" are real Species, although they are phylogenetically very closely related to each other! From taxanomomical standpoint, I had the impression that both Species could belong to one and the same Taxon, but now with the results of the crossbreeding experiment...!

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Ahh, well that answers the question about reproductive morphology. I would ask you more about the reproductive morphology variance between phenotypes but understand your wish to remain quiet until something is published. My guess is that some characters you may have thought were too unstable to reference may indeed be more stable then previously thought (just a wild guess ). Very interesting findings however, given that experiments of this sort are rarely carried out.

Thanks for taking the time to explain so well, I shall look out for the published descriptions, as these will be very interesting.

Steve

Just a question...

What is the most commonly used/accepted species concept within spider-taxonomy? And has this also a significant effect? I mean do different taxonomists on the same family (if such abundance exists...) use different species concepts and are there conflicts?

wow... that is a amazing thread...

I will resurrect it, to ask Volker von Wirth...

do you have interest in construct a web site with a data base with your photographs of all the relevant characters??

bye

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

Leon is right, I've bred Hapl. sp. "longipedum" with Haplopelma lividum. The result is, that at the moment, two Years after this crossbreeding experiment, I have only one alive Hybrid= very high mortality rate! This indicates to me that both Species are real Species in the sense of the biological Species concept after Mayr/Hennig! I'm preparing the description of the Haplopelma sp. "longipedum" but this will still take some time.

Cheers, Volker

Click to expand...

Volker,

one time is no time. Repeat it 100 times and if you have the same result then maybe you are on to something.

Edit: And I never heard before that hybrids would have higher mortality rate?

Old thread but still interesting!


/Lelle

Hi,

will answer the last questions: the most commonly used Species concept in Spider taxonomy is obviously the morphological Species concept, by which the different Species are differentiated by morphological differences.

@Lelle:

Of course I can try to repeat this experiment 100 times, and then, when I'm old and wise, the Species is described by Schmidt since long! The result of this experiment was a hint(!!!) for me that both Species are probably real Species. The description of Hapl. longipes doesn't based on that experiment, but on the taxonomical features by which you can distinguish Hapl. longipes from Hapl. lividum. I think, it's better to use the hint of such an experiment, if possible, than only to distinguish Species by morphological characters!

@TheDarkness

Yes, one day, after a special person is not on this earth anymor , I will create such a Homepage with all my pictures of the characters of asian Theraphosidae, so that you can identify them by this characters. At the moment this is not possible, because I'm worry that "my Special friend" would use this informations for his own sh...ty publications!

Cheers, Volker

VolkervonWirth said:

Hi,

@TheDarkness

Yes, one day, after a special person is not on this earth anymor , I will create such a Homepage with all my pictures of the characters of asian Theraphosidae, so that you can identify them by this characters. At the moment this is not possible, because I'm worry that "my Special friend" would use this informations for his own <edit> publications!

Cheers, Volker

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yes, I understand you... but we can construct a web site with authenticated access, only authorized persons can will see the data... I'm web programmer, if you need help, please, ask me...

I have special interest in this project, I will construct something like this to my work of conclusion of my Biology curse...

Thanks