solifugids actually lives longer than we think

[Randolph XX()]

Just got a news from my friend in Taiwan
his captive hatched solifugids (presumebly G.granti) is still alive and kicking now, and not mature yet(plz check the solifugids molting thread i posted a while ago)
the story goes back to a wc mom laid 13 eggs, and it is only one left now
it has been two yrs since hatched
the point is
they hibernate in winter!
my freind just let it hibernate under normal winter temperature in Taiwan, around 15-20c, and it just wakes up in spring
2004/8/4 born
2004/8/19 first molt
2004/10/21 second molt
hibernated
2005/7/14 third
2005/8/31 fourth
2005/10/3 fifth
hibernating now

pictures will be updated soon

[Bungholio]

This is a very interesting point, I´m never heard it about solifugids.
Do they hibernate in they natural habitate too?

[Anthony]

That is good information, thank you.

[Ryan_White]

Hmm well I heard that they are seasonal animals.. just like a praying mantid, which explains why mine only lasted a few months.. anyway this'll be an interesting turn of invents I think solfugids are very cool..

If their mortality rate does rise i'll be looking to get another..

[Cheshire]

Keep us posted. That is really cool

[Scorp guy]

sound interesting randel!

[Randolph XX()]

update
it's awake now
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/randolph20/sunspider06.jpg
see
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=48763
for molting
the reason that solifugids have such short live span is the frequency of feeding!
my budy feed this bugger one meal worm per week, non during the hibernation period
he used to feed them daily like everybody said, and they all got fat then die without any reason
hope this help

[Wade]

I suspect much of the "common wisdom" concerning these animals is incorrect. You always hear that they have to be kept hot, in big cages, and fed alot. All three of these may, in fact, be incorrect and actually detrimental to their longevity.

It should be pointed out that lifespan may be variable fom species to species as well as individual to individual.

Wade

[danread]

Also bear in mind that what happens in captivity might not occur the wild. Just because one solphugid has lived for two years in artificial conditions doesn't mean this happens reguarly in the wild (although thats not to say it doesn't).

Cheers,

[bistrobob85]

I would be really interested to know if feeding frequently would burn the solifugid's methabolism that much... It would probably be necessary to purchase a small group and see which ones live the longest...

[Randolph XX()]

I suspect much of the "common wisdom" concerning these animals is incorrect. You always hear that they have to be kept hot, in big cages, and fed alot. All three of these may, in fact, be incorrect and actually detrimental to their longevity.

It should be pointed out that lifespan may be variable fom species to species as well as individual to individual.

Wade
true wade, but the thing is, it's not mature yet
as 5th instr, so it's quite possible it will live for longer than two yrs

I am not sure if the case of CB scorps can compare to the situation

i received few CBB A.australis which were born in July 05, and one of them is 6th instar now, cuz i feed her as much as she wants under the temp of 90F

a lot of scorpion breeders in Taiwan reports that most CBB scorps(Androctonus, Parabuthus) fed well and raised by constant hot temperature(85f+) have tendency to mature faster in smaller sizes and have shorter lifespan
for example WC P.trans can reach 15 cm, but cbs that mature in a yr are mostly around 10cm. Same case apply to A.australis, WC 10cm, CBBs 7-8cm
with only 2 yrs lifespan, and those WC scorps which have been through seasonal change and not well fed live for 5+yrs

besides , they do have a short period of winter in the dessert, but the assumption is hard to make due to lack of field research evidence

but if this only happens in captivity, it is still good for the hobby to keep solifugids that way

[Wade]

Metabolism of all arthropods is regulated by temperature, so it would be surprising if solipugids were an exception, so your comparison to scorpions is probably quite appropriate. By heating and feeding heavy, keepers may be pushing their captive solipugids to the end of their lifespan faster.

Also, G granti is a desert species from a region that does not experience extreme winters, so such species may live longer than temperate ones, such as those that occur in the US. Most of the Galeodes in the trade are collected as WC adults and may be at the end of their lifepan already. We will need more success with breeding or at least rearing babies from WC females to get the whole picture. Could be these hot-climate species just take longer to reach adulthood than previously assumed.

Wade

[Randolph XX()]

Sorry to bring this up again
by the short period of winter i stated above is the winter in Taiwan, which is different than the winter in North America
it's about 15 C,even Even hotter then a summer night here in Canada

[Ganoderma]

Taiwan has a winter? i must have been sleeping.

do you guys hapen to have more info on conditions? what sort of cage setup were they in? heat, humidity, water etc? any idea on habitat conditions they were foudn in? were they the taiwanese specie?

[BLS Blondi]

It is good to hear that they can live a while in captivity. I have been wanting to get one for a while. Who out there in the US has any for sale?

[rattler_mt]

being that i find large ones(for here) early in the spring i would think that they can hibernate, we can have snow on the ground for up to 6 months so i cant believe these things only live for 6 monthst when ive found a wide range of sizes at any point during the late spring, summer and early fall. never tried to keep one long though. might have to try and let it hibernate in my unheated garage.

[Randolph XX()]

well, just a deli cup
no heating, no water supply, as I SAid b4, they are G.granti, the Arabian sps

[zinto]

That picture you posted of it is what it's living in??? :?

[Randolph XX()]

Yes
my friend keeps all his CBB desert scorpions (Androtonus, Parabuthus, Hottentona) and desert solifufids this way

[zinto]

That seems awfully cruel to me...

[Randolph XX()]

well, He doesn't live in AZ, instead, he lives in Taiwan where the space is quite limited to have or even breed inverts privately
besides, he is an experienced hobbyist, and i can assure u all his animals live pretty well, at least eat, moult, breed well

and don't get started with the "Psychological" perspective of inverts
if they are stressed out, they won't eat, moult, or even breed that well

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

besides
i havn't heard any one who keeps solifugids in a bigger tanks live longer than his, so wat do u say?

[zinto]

well, He doesn't live in AZ, instead, he lives in Taiwan where the space is quite limited to have or even breed inverts privately
besides, he is an experienced hobbyist, and i can assure u all his animals live pretty well, at least eat, moult, breed well

and don't get started with the "Psychological" perspective of inverts
if they are stressed out, they won't eat, moult, or even breed that well

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

besides
i havn't heard any one who keeps solifugids in a bigger tanks live longer than his, so wat do u say?

You could survive in a 6x10ft area, doesn't mean you'd like to. I haven't heard of anyone keeping solifugids in larger tanks living longer either, but maybe that just means they shouldn't be kept. I think it'd be awesome to have one of those as a pet, but since I haven't really seen any successful ways of keeping them, I'm not going to have one.

I'm not going anywhere near the psychological issues either. I understand that it will show through eating habits and whatnot if the creature is stressed. And that's unfortunate for your friend that he doesn't live in an area where more space is available, but that shouldn't mean that the insects should have to suffer.

It just doesn't seem right to me to keep the solifugid in such a small container. I obviously won't have any affect on what your friend's actions will be, it's just my opinion. They obviously don't survive in that small of an area in the wild. Anyway, this is just how I feel about it.

-Nick

[ShadowSpectrum]

Here's my theory on Randolph's friend's setup. With an enclosure that small, the scorp, solifugid, etc, probably treats it's whole enclosure as it's hide or retreat. Inverts don't really leave their retreat other than to hunt and breed. But if food, water, breeding partners, and everything else it would ever need are all provided, it really has no reason to leave its retreat. If the invert had alot more open space in the tank, without a proper hide, than that could be a problem. I would think the animals are thriving if they are giving birth in those enclosures.

Anyways, interesting stuff Randolph. I want to get some solifugids after reading this now :)

[Randolph XX()]

well input shadow
i don't really know how to explain all this to a guy who thinks he can tuck me into a 6 by 10 box.....

[Steven Gielis]

I can tell that many Solifugae species hibernate during the colder season in their natural habitat. As a student at the university I found some rare but good information of Solifugae in the wild. Overfeeding can kill these animals. Because they have no system to warn them as they eat to much. In the desert you have to eat what you can get! I had also some succes with solifugae. I was able to let them mate an had also eggs and small larvae wich where unable to move. I had more than 70 eggs.Unfortunantly it went bad at the molting. Because the eggs are normally kept in the tunnelsystem of the mother, they hatch under very specific parameters of humidity and heat. Now I am making a special tank for them so I can reproduce the parameters.
Some pictures:

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1706/eieren1wl.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5674/eierengroot5gy.jpg
the eggs + hatching

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4290/larve5zx.jpg

The larvae (non moving)

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8554/verveldesolifugae0jp.jpg

Larvae, moving, they didn't survive this stadium

http://img222.echo.cx/img222/5628/soli13un.png

male

http://img278.echo.cx/img278/6855/eitjes8rx.png

http://img278.echo.cx/img278/7029/eitjes19ct.png

female with eggs

[zinto]

well input shadow
i don't really know how to explain all this to a guy who thinks he can tuck me into a 6 by 10 box.....

It's called "putting yourself in their shoes" also known as an example that puts it on a more personal level....

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there? Thanks for the input.
-Nick

[lucanidae]

I think it'd be awesome to have one of those as a pet, but since I haven't really seen any successful ways of keeping them, I'm not going to have one.

We've known for years that solfugids hibernate and live for a good number of years. We've also known how to keep them successfully and breed with moderate success. All this was published in The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) by Fred Punzo in 1998. I've read most of the book, and I definetly reccomend it for anyone who wants to keep/breed these animals. I'm very surprised more people on these boards haven't found this one yet.

[cacoseraph]

It's called "putting yourself in their shoes" also known as an example that puts it on a more personal level....

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there? Thanks for the input.
-Nick

zinto, solis are so different from humans that drawing any comparisons beyond the fact both are animals is very misleading and counterproductive

of all the solis i've kept, the longest lasting (about 6 months) were all in small delicups with no waterdish. the shortest lived were given HUGE cages relative to animals size.

anthropomophizing inverts will generally lead you into trouble. like Randolph said, the ultimate gauge of successful conditions is breeding and producing young.

[Steven Gielis]

We've known for years that solfugids hibernate and live for a good number of years. We've also known how to keep them successfully and breed with moderate success. All this was published in The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) by Fred Punzo in 1998. I've read most of the book, and I definetly reccomend it for anyone who wants to keep/breed these animals. I'm very surprised more people on these boards haven't found this one yet.

That book belongs to my collection :D

[zinto]

zinto, solis are so different from humans that drawing any comparisons beyond the fact both are animals is very misleading and counterproductive

of all the solis i've kept, the longest lasting (about 6 months) were all in small delicups with no waterdish. the shortest lived were given HUGE cages relative to animals size.

anthropomophizing inverts will generally lead you into trouble. like Randolph said, the ultimate gauge of successful conditions is breeding and producing young.

You're probably right in that comparing humans to any invertebrate is not the best comparison to be made. All that I am trying to say is that in the wild, "solis" obviously do not stay in an area the size of a deli cup. For that reason, it doesn't seem right to me to keep them in such a confined space. I think it's strange that they even survive in an area that size but even stranger that they do so poorly in large areas in captivity. I'm obviously not going to change the world; I'm simply voicing my opinion. That's what the boards are for, right? :)

lucanidae - thanks for the reference, I'll definitely look into that book!

-Nick

[lucanidae]

I am trying to say is that in the wild, "solis" obviously do not stay in an area the size of a deli cup. For that reason, it doesn't seem right to me to keep them in such a confined space. I think it's strange that they even survive in an area that size but even stranger that they do so poorly in large areas in captivity.

In that book Punzo suggests that the reason solfugids do not do well in captivity is because, in short, they run themselves to death. Therefore, keeping them in small cups would reduce the panicked running that causes a lot of early demise.

However! Punzo does not reccomend keeping them in such confined spaces. Instead, he provides a good 'recipe' for substrate that the animals seem to prefer. He also suggests having the substrate deep with appropriate (descirbed in detail in the book) retreats. It is the soil type, depth, and retreats, along with appropriate feeding that leads to captive success by reducing the frantic running that leads solfugids to often "run themselves to death". The deli cup method is a shortcut to more proper care.

[Tarantula]

if he house all 300-500 inverts each in 10 gallon tanks, it will be awfully cruel to him

Not cruel at all.. As he chooses himself how many inverts he keeps. Its not impossible to sell inverts... or resist buying many.

Therefor he has himself to blaim to have to keep his inverts in small delis...

[ShadowSpectrum]

I also have a question regarding ShadowSpectrum's post: What you're saying does make some sense, but do you think that it would never leave it's hide? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm actually asking because I don't know how they'd act. If everything was provided in its hide, would it just stay there?


I would believe so. If abosolutely everything it needed was provided, inside it's shelter, I don't think it would have a reason to leave. Inverts don't have psychological and emotional needs that need to be met, only physical. They don't talk walks in the park to enjoy the scenery, reduce stress, stay in shape, for the hell of it. They reason they leave is to find food, or if their retreat has been destroyed, etc.

I also would like to add that I believe there is no one right way to keep inverts. Sure, there are plenty of wrong ways, but if what you are doing works for you, than there is no need to fix it.

[Randolph XX()]

gee, don't turn this into a everlasting neverending debate like feeding rodents to inverts sorta thingy, okay?
I am simply offering a fact that:
keeping solifugids with seasonal temperature change as letting them hibernate under 15 degree and feeding them with proper amount of food like my frriend does in Taiwan makes his lives longer than most of other keepers'
and if anyone else is intersted in whether keeping a solifugid in a delicup is ethicaly right or not, please open another thread for the debate
The End

[Galapoheros]

I can tell that many Solifugae species hibernate during the colder season in their natural habitat. As a student at the university I found some rare but good information of Solifugae in the wild. Overfeeding can kill these animals. Because they have no system to warn them as they eat to much. In the desert you have to eat what you can get! I had also some succes with solifugae. I was able to let them mate an had also eggs and small larvae wich where unable to move. I had more than 70 eggs.Unfortunantly it went bad at the molting. Because the eggs are normally kept in the tunnelsystem of the mother, they hatch under very specific parameters of humidity and heat. Now I am making a special tank for them so I can reproduce the parameters.
Some pictures:

<snip>

female with eggs


Those are nice looking strange animals. I've had the same experience with a large desert species in the US. Same thing.... The eggs hatched but no movement. Everything just seemed to slow down and stop. I see these on the road running, running, running... non stop. I think the book that was mentioned (The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnida, Solifugae) would clear things up for allot of us.

[Steven Gielis]

It possebly went wrong because of hibernation. The dealer couldn't tell me where the animals came from. I guess Northern Africa, possebly Egypt. I have got the eggs in the late summer. So guessing at the timing and the big size off the eggs they need to hibernate. The second instar moved but this had yolk in the abdomen and that shouldn't be.

[Michael Jacobi]

Instead, he provides a good 'recipe' for substrate that the animals seem to prefer. He also suggests having the substrate deep with appropriate (descirbed in detail in the book) retreats. It is the soil type, depth, and retreats, along with appropriate feeding that leads to captive success by reducing the frantic running that leads solfugids to often "run themselves to death". The deli cup method is a shortcut to more proper care.

Erik,

Would you please elaborate on that substrate mix for those of us who don't have the book?

@ all:

This is a very interesting discussion that illustrates how little we know about keeping these animals in captivity. In Dr. Breene's article in the second issue of my ARACHNOCULTURE magazine, he suggests that poor captive longevity is due to confining these active animals in small quarters where they become sluggish and die. He must have missed Punzo's reference :eek: As editor, so did I. :eek: :eek: I have some juvenile G. granti that I am keeping in 2.5 gallon aquariums on two-three inches of a sand and peat mix with a couple of hiding places. I have a monster over 3 inches in length that is in a 5.5 gal. This discussion has me considering moving it to 2.5 gallon as well.

By the way, can anyone tell me how to sex solifugids?

Cheers, Michael

[lucanidae]

he suggests that poor captive longevity is due to confining these active animals in small quarters where they become sluggish and die. He must have missed Punzo's reference As editor, so did I.

As I've said before, I am AMAZED about how unknown this book is. It is by far the top reference on solifuges, written by the world expert on them. Definitely, no article is complete without referencing this book.



I have had a few requests to reveal in more detail what is contained in Fred Punzo's book, so here we go!

To limit how much I have to type and the amount of Punzo's book I purely quote I will select the top few quotes from the ten pages of detailed information. Feel free to continue to PM me for more detailed sections. Please excuse typos.

"Most solifuges become extremely agitated when captured and placed in a cage or holding container. They often move continuously around the perimeter, stopping intermittently in attempts to climb the walls of the cage. Frequently they will not stop until exhausted to the point of immobility. They are capable of literally walking themselves to death. Any strategy and provision that will reduce random ambulatory movements will increase the probability of survival" (Punzo, 250)

"Another way is to use the type of substrate that facilitates the excavation and construciton of burrows. When captive solifuges are allowed to seek shelter within an appropriate container or burrow, their locomotor activity decreses significantly. This, in turn, will increase their survival capacity." (Punzo, 250)

"As a general rule, survival of adults and larger nymps is maximized when the length of the cage is apporimately 6x the body length of the solifuge, and its width 4x the body length. The height of the cage for adults should be at least 9 inches in order to accomodate the required substrate depth." (Punzo, 250)

"I have achieved the best results by using a sandy loam soil consisting of 14.1% clay, 7.1% silt, and 78.8% sand." This produces a substrate with a soil surface hardess of 3.0-3.5 kg/cm -2 " (Punzo, 251)

"For optimum burrow construction, a cage should be used that will allow a substrate depth of 3.5-5 inches." (Punzo, 251)

"As a general rule, most solifuges should be maintained at temperatures in the mid to upper 20's C (70s F)." (Punzo, 252)

Punzo, Fred. The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnidae, Solifigae) Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston, 1998

Their is a TON of more detailed information in the book, including keys to all the genera of solifuges, and succesfull breeding and subsequent rearing of young in captivity. Anyone who wants to succesfully keep and breed these in captivity, needs this book!

Enjoy!
Eric

[lucanidae]

Hey Micheal!

This one is just for you.

"There are some well defined anatomical differences between adult male and female solifuges that will help you in determing the sex of your animals (see Ch. 4 for a more thorough discussion of sexual dimorphism). In most species, the bodies of females are typically longer and more robust. Males have more slender bodies and longer legs. The males of most species have a flagellum located on the dorso-distal region of the doral chelicera." .... "Ther chilcerae of males are usually narrower than those of females and possess few teeth (Figure 4-9, 4-10). The ratio of the chiceral length dived by the chiceral width (jaw index) is reliably larger in males than females. In most species, the malleolar organs are broader and more prominent in males (Figure 4-12)" (Punzo, 257)

Punzo, Fred. The Biology of Camel-Spiders (Arachnidae, Solifigae) Kluwer Academic Publishers, Boston, 1998

This book is great!

[Steven Gielis]

Here is a good picture of the flagellum from the male Rhagodes phalangium. It's in the red circles :) You can also see the chelicerae. In this species the male has also beautifull blue colored head. For the family of Rhagodidae it looks like two small hooks. Buth it is different in shape depending on the family.

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/3989/flagellum10zb.jpg

[bistrobob85]

Thanks for making this a sticky, thats a really interesting thread :). Did i mention that i was never interested in solifugids before i read it?

phil.

[Cheshire]

Thanks for making this a sticky, thats a really interesting thread :). Did i mention that i was never interested in solifugids before i read it?

phil.

I just PM'ed Debby and Scott and asked. Every time I wanted to dig it up, I couldn't find it. I think this thread has gone a long way in helping our understanding of these creatures. Maybe one day, they'll be a tarantula alternitave.

[Wade]

Good to see this thread resurrected!

Punzo's book is great, and truly the definitive work on the subject. Although I'd recomend it also, be forewarned: it's pricey! When it came out, I think it was $139, and last time I saw it listed it ws $150! I was able to talk the nature center where I work into buying it, but it was way out of reach for the personal library. Of course, if had a better paying job than the nature cebter then maybe I could afford it.

Anyway, I think that the deli cup method is possibly a very viable method of rearing them. We can discuss cuelty etc, but in light of the fact that these are VERY high-stress animals by all accounts, that in fact drop dead from stress, suggests to me that they are at least content in the cups. It is not difficult to recognize a stressed solifugue! However, I do not think it is likely to have them reproduce in cups, so while it might be a possible method of getting them to adulthood, after that something else will be needed.

I'd like to add annother bit of husbandry that may or may not be useful in the future culture of these things. I recently purchsed two (large yellow ones of Egyptian origin, presumabley Galeodes) of these, one of which appears to be "gravid" (if that is an accepable term with these!). I wanted to keep in mind Punzo's (and Randolphs!) information regarding cage size, but at the same time wanted to be sure that there'd be enough space to allow for burrowing. I chose two medium-sized plastic "critter keeper" type cages, filled about halfway with a sand/paver base mix. various pieves of flat stones and cork bark are burried within to provide burrow opprotunities, as well as a piece of cork on the top to have surface shelter.

I then wrapped black plastic (taped in place) around the terrariums. I did this to make the whole cage darker and more secure, reasoning that transparent sides might be a stress factor. I considered using an opaque container to begin with, but then I wouldn't be able to peek inside at all.

I have not had them long enough to know if this method extends the lifespan or if I will be successful in getting and rearing eggs. However, I can say that it has resulted in calmer animals. There is no spastic running, no panicked digging, in fact they seem content to hide out under the surface hide rather than in a burrow, and at night can be observed hanging out in the open. In fact, in these set ups they are rather sedate animals, at least until prey is introduced!

On the humidity issue, my guess would be that the ideal cage would be deep with substrate that is somewhat moist at the bottom, but kept dry at top. Getting this to happen without developing mold problems will be the challenge, but can no doubt be done.

Wade

[danread]

One way of getting round spending $150 on the book is to use google book search http://books.google.com/. It's excellent for referencing, although if you want to read the whole book, it would be a lot easier to buy it, since you can only read three pages around each search.

If you search for the Biology of Camel spiders (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0792381556&id=cUnt7bAEcMAC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=The+Biology+of+Camel-Spiders&sig=zQyi41iKLZmpXH2hZrGaBGpG9LA), there is a limited preview online, although it seems to have quite a lot of pages uploaded.

Cheers,

[Brian S]

I'm not going anywhere near the psychological issues either. I understand that it will show through eating habits and whatnot if the creature is stressed. And that's unfortunate for your friend that he doesn't live in an area where more space is available, but that shouldn't mean that the insects should have to suffer.
And how do you know they are suffereing? Inverts are way different from us. If fed well they will often stay in one place for a loong time.

It just doesn't seem right to me to keep the solifugid in such a small container. I obviously won't have any affect on what your friend's actions will be, it's just my opinion. They obviously don't survive in that small of an area in the wild. Anyway, this is just how I feel about it.

-Nick
Again, How do you know this has such a negative effect on them? Inverts dont feel emotions like we do.

[lucanidae]

It isn't about the 'feelings' of the animals. When you take an animal from the wild it is generally considered appropriate to attempt to recreate to the best of your ability its natural habitat. Captive animals tend to survive and thrive more often this way. That is why people are so concerned about temperature/humidity requirements and substrate type. I find that the best aquariums and zoos are the ones who do the best job of recreating naturalistic environments. I know putting a tarantula or any other invert in a glass box is far from its natural environment, but the point is to attempt to do as much as possible. It is easy to take the extra steps with solfugids to try to create a more natural environment where they can burrow to solve the stress problem; putting them in a small delicup is a shortcut that detracts from the overall quality of care for the animal.

If people aren't willing to get a 2.5 gallon tank and mix some soil toghether to try to keep solfugids alive in captivity, then they shouldn't be removing them from the wild.

[Cheshire]

OK, guys: take your sphincter necklaces off. NOW.

This bug is obviously NOT suffering. It's lived a great deal longer than any other solfugid in captivity being cared for in the standard way. It's well fed and assuming it is still alive it has lived SIX TIMES LONGER THAN THE NORMAL STANDARD.

How can you think possibly think it's suffering? It lives in a BURROW about the SAME SIZE in the wild.

Randolf is here trying to show us how to actually care for these things, citing an amazing example of success with these bugs and here you guys are, hassling him about ethics that simply DON'T APPLY.

Wake up.

[Brian S]

If people aren't willing to get a 2.5 gallon tank and mix some soil toghether to try to keep solfugids alive in captivity, then they shouldn't be removing them from the wild.
From what I have read right here that hasnt been working. Everyone that tries to put them in a big tank are the ones that are having the frequent deaths. You need to keep an open mind :)

[Randolph XX()]

chill out every one, there will always be a smart A@s somewhere try to prove himself

David Suzuki said there was a guy from a conference raised his hand saying green house effects cause global cooling and it is actually good for the world, global warming is just a big hoax

Some hobbyists just think they are "saving" wc aimals from suffering in pet shop by purchasing them and just get pissed of while they saw their animals are used as feeders somewhere else
but wat is the real suffering to a species? import thousands of them from the wild each year and just lay straight up then die in your own hand, fair to call that ethical?
i think i am kinda out of the topic
cheers anyway

[lucanidae]

From what I have read right here that hasnt been working. Everyone that tries to put them in a big tank are the ones that are having the frequent deaths. You need to keep an open mind

It's working for Fred Punzo, the guy who wrote the book on sofulgids. Using his specs that's about the size tank you would need for some of the medium sized species. For years he's been repeatedly successful in breeding them in captivity, the greatest sign of healthy well maintained animals.

This bug is obviously NOT suffering.

I didn't say anything about sufferring, I opended my post by saying it wasn't going to be about the animals 'feelings'.

It's lived a great deal longer than any other solfugid in captivity being cared for in the standard way. It's well fed and assuming it is still alive it has lived SIX TIMES LONGER THAN THE NORMAL STANDARD.

What exactly is the standard way in this hobby? I don't think I've see anyone standardizing substrate types or tank size or temperature. The lack of a standard is the problem.

How can you think possibly think it's suffering? It lives in a BURROW about the SAME SIZE in the wild

Solfugid burrows are actually quite extensive in the wild, according to The Biology of Camel Spiders. The book contains several drawings of all different types of solfugid burrows. If you can find a better source that shows that their burrows are small please post it.

@Randolph

I hope you know I'm not attacking you. I think it is great that your friend has been able to keep one alive for so long, :worship: :clap: :worship: and thankyou for bringing it up. I just think that there is a better system to keeping these alive in captivity, one that has been tested for many years, published, and allows for the animals to make their own burrows.

My last post described why it isn't about the animal's 'feelings', but the overall point behind keeping exotics animals, attempting to recreate their home in yours.

[Cheshire]

It's working for Fred Punzo, the guy who wrote the book on sofulgids. Using his specs that's about the size tank you would need for some of the medium sized species. For years he's been repeatedly successful in breeding them in captivity, the greatest sign of healthy well maintained animals.



I didn't say anything about sufferring, I opended my post by saying it wasn't going to be about the animals 'feelings'.



What exactly is the standard way in this hobby? I don't think I've see anyone standardizing substrate types or tank size or temperature. The lack of a standard is the problem.



Solfugid burrows are actually quite extensive in the wild, according to The Biology of Camel Spiders. The book contains several drawings of all different types of solfugid burrows. If you can find a better source that shows that their burrows are small please post it.

@Randolph

I hope you know I'm not attacking you. I think it is great that your friend has been able to keep one alive for so long, :worship: :clap: :worship: and thankyou for bringing it up. I just think that there is a better system to keeping these alive in captivity, one that has been tested for many years, published, and allows for the animals to make their own burrows.

My last post described why it isn't about the animal's 'feelings', but the overall point behind keeping exotics animals, attempting to recreate their home in yours.

My post wasn't aimed at you at all, stag man ;)

However, the average lifespan in captivity seems to be about six months. The standard conventional wisdom is lots of food, lots of space which kills them off fairly quickly.

Solfigud burrows may be extensive in the wild, but they are still narrow which is KEY in keeping these in captivity due to the need to make the bug think it's in close quarters.

[bistrobob85]

You know what, guys, i'm REALLY considering to start a ''test group'' of solifugids in 2.5 gallon tanks with lots of soil and not that much heat and not that much food... I'd try to get hold of a few young ones and i'd try to keep them alive and healthy as long as possible... Sadly enough, i dont have any solifugids right now, but i have room for sure!!!! I'd encourage other people to try it too so that we can actually figure out how do to it and write a document about it...

phil.

[JSN]

I was going to do something similar, but its been raining for a while, so my chances are slim of catching any of these guys...when I do, you guys will hear about it, and I will post everything thing I can...

[Wade]

Attempting to set a standard by which these animals should be kept, when so little is understood about their husbandry needs, is pointless and possibly even detrimental to their future in arachnoculture. We really don't know what they need. While life in a deli cup may not seem desireable to me, this experiment suggests very interesting possibilities regarding their husbandry.

Punzo's book is a great reference for anyone interested in solifuges, but it isn't the end-all, be-all and I doubt he intended it to be. First of all, the caging he describes isn't very big, he recomends 6X the BODY length of the animal for cage length, which for most NA species is going to be 6 inches or less! Still bigger than a cup, but hardly the roomy cages that have often been advocated. He even admits that luck was part of his success.


Also, he only discusses ONE species in his husbandry section, Eremobates marthoni. Expecting the husbandry information for this one North American species to apply to all is akin to expecting all tarantulas to have the same care needs as Aphonopelma chalcodes.

I also don't think that Punzo was saying that the exact specifications he used are what is required, rather he is sharing what has worked for him. You cant read techincal works like this one (the husbandry section is only one chapter) as you would a care sheet or pet care book. Some of what he describes sound more like laboratory processes than real husbandry requirements. For example, he says the substrate was changed once a week to aoid contamination! I tend to doubt this is really needed, more likely he is describing, in detail, everything he did.
Clearly there is more room for experimentation here. While I don't think that keeping them in cramped cups represents the future of these animals in captivity, it does give us valuable clues. For starters, it suggest that tactile closeness is a more important factor than a visual barrier when it comes to stress. In other words, a snug-fitting hide may be more desireable than a roomy one. It also tells us that tropical species (which are poorly studied) may have a much longer lifespan than NA species which we tend to think of as annual in duration.

Anyway, I hate to see an interesting topic descend into a unresolvable debate. We could go back and forth about it forever, but it gets us no closer to understanding the needs of these animals.

Wade

[lucanidae]

Punzo's book is a great reference for anyone interested in solifuges, but it isn't the end-all, be-all and I doubt he intended it to be. First of all, the caging he describes isn't very big, he recomends 6X the BODY length of the animal for cage length, which for most NA species is going to be 6 inches or less! Still bigger than a cup, but hardly the roomy cages that have often been advocated. He even admits that luck was part of his success.

I'll admit the book's husbandry section is short compared to the rest of the few hundred pages, but unfortunatley it is about the only real published work about successful long term husbandry with a large sample size. The rest of the book however, is quite an impressive in-depth reference, by far the best written to date.

As for the size of the cage, 6 times the body length worked: if proper burrows can be established, perhaps larger lengths can work as well.

Expecting the husbandry information for this one North American species to apply to all is akin to expecting all tarantulas to have the same care needs as Aphonopelma chalcodes.

Exactly. And having a sample size of one solfugid of one species survive in a deli-cup is no reason to think we should all buy solfuids and house them in deli-cups; expecting them to live out full healthy lives.

I also don't think that Punzo was saying that the exact specifications he used are what is required, rather he is sharing what has worked for him.

Right! But what worked for him can work for us too. It worked for him on a fairly large scale, so I think it is a good starting place.

I completely agree with you, a LOT more needs to be learned about the captive husbandry of these animals. But, I still think that Punzo's book is the best starting place we have. Putting an animal that in the wild is seen running across the desert at full speed in a deli-cup where it can barley turn around and can't dig it's own burrow just so we can have it in our home just dosen't seem right.

[rattler_mt]

an interesting note on tunneling(please keep in mind i have not attempted to keep these guys long term) we have a small(2.5-3cm) species here in the frozen north. i have caught a few dozen of them over the years and generally turned them loose after a short time. untill this thread i was not aware they made tunnels. most that i captured were put in small containers(generally small glass jars) with just a lil bit of dirt, basically enough to cover the bottom and give them traction. a few millimeters at most. it never failed, it would be up and running around when i went to bed and the next morning it would be gone and i would panic. what i found out is that these guys, if there isnt enough soil to burrow they will build............well...........an "igloo"? out of the dirt to hide in im not sure if they are using saliva or what to hold the dirt together. i sat and watched one actually build one a few years after the first "disappearance". it dug a small depresion down to the glass and slowly started building walls from the glass up around it and over the top of it basically with just enough room for it to turn around in. was neat to watch. just a bit of info i thought might be of interest

[lucanidae]

Cool! Would be excellent if you could catch another and see what happend if you gave them more substrate to burrow in.

[rattler_mt]

plan on it. unfortuantly ive never been very good at finding them reliably. one year i found a half dozen. once i caught 5 of them over a course of 5 nights in a row, for some reason they were attracted to my sister and i just had to wait for a scream in the middle of the night, all different individuals cause i kept them all for about a month. other years i dont find any. i dont have a lot to do this week so im headed out to do some shooting and flipping boards and rocks and see what i can find. the main place i have always found them though is basements with about 3/4 of the total ive caught being seen racing across the cement where i catch them with a cup. ive found a dozen or so flipping rocks over the years. if they tunnel that would be why i have a hard time finding them outside of the basement of my parents house. oddly enough the 5 that ran across my sister happened in the living room on the main floor.

[Herp13]

I have an itching question, what does like 15-20c convert to in Ferenhieght? I really like them and just wanted to know the temperature that he succesfully hibernated them in:)

[Raqua]

I have an itching question, what does like 15-20c convert to in Ferenhieght? I really like them and just wanted to know the temperature that he succesfully hibernated them in:)
Roughly 50-60 F

[KRC]

The Denver Natural History Museum is actually doing a study on these guys right now, such as identification, DNA, enviornment, and were they are native to and were they are moving to. The lady who is in charge of it came over to were i work and asked for any specimens we might find.

So if anyone is close enough to Colorado to do so, i would suggest sending specimens (she will take dead or alive ones) you may find to them so that they can continue with their research, which is sure to exspand the knowledge pool of these wonderfull animals.

[RodG]

I have just finished reading all the messages posted on this thread and what
fun reading it was! I even went as far as ordering The Biology of Camel-Spiders off of Amazon.com.

[JSN]

if its of any interest, I've caught a few solifugids recently, and so far they have not died on me in the last 3 and half months I've had them...

[Zach Valois]

Hello,
first let me say this has been an amazing documentation of the ideas in
current Solifugae captivity. I think all awnsers lie in the practice of habitat recreation, they have awnsered mine so far.
And scientific publications such as Punzo's work are absolutly in-vaulable.

I'm currently studying arachnid morphology and systematics, partly focusing on
the order Solifugae. If anyone does have these die, please freeze them in several bags, and send them to me. (Other than individuals from Denver; in which should be sent to Paula Cushing) I will pay money for the dead specimen(s) aswell as shipping ofcourse.


thanks,

Zach

[Longbord1]

maybe this solifugid survived so long because it is in fact not able to move around as much. It never really expends any energy.

[LeilaNami]

this is interesting! many of the books I've read on solifugids say a possibility of only a one year lifespan due to their high metabolism

[Randolph XX()]

maybe this solifugid survived so long because it is in fact not able to move around as much. It never really expends any energy.

good hypothesis, i guess u need much more samples to make this statement

[Steven Gielis]

They are always running. Even in small boxes. They can try to run for hours on the glass... Punzo also suggests that animals die of to little movement and to much food. In this example I think the animal get his food on fixed times and I assume it's just enough to keep it alive and in good condition without getting fat.

[Timmy]

What kind of substrate do solifugids generally need?

[desert solifuge]

I read the entire Thread and I never got to know what happen to the solifuge of Randolph XX's friend ???
Did it dyed after hibernation?
Cheers

[Randolph XX()]

Hi all
this one did wake up from the hibernation, and moulted another time
Unfortunately, it died from this bad moult

[desert solifuge]

You know it could have dyed of "natural" cause, if so your friend is the second person in the world to manage to breed solifugae for a entire life cycle.
Do you know if he kept the specimen in alcohol or something.
Thanks for replying
Cheers

[Timmy]

What kind of substrate do solifugids generally need?

anyone?

[desert solifuge]

They are usually desert creatures, so sand and loose dry soil is the most adequate for them, usually the same conditions you would use for desert scorpions.
But remember that for the time being, I have no knowledge of "non biologists" breeding them, so if you get one, not only will it probably dye in a very short period of time but it was taken from the wild.
Just a thought you should have in mind before making a decision.

[konrad16660]

thats impressive I have heard they are really hard to keep alive in captivity. good work!:clap:

[konrad16660]

i would agree. i buy from shops sometimes because half the shops starve their little critters. i just bought a pink toe and it loves me to death because i feed it regularly. i'm fattening it up and getting it back to health. also...things like scorps and some other arachnids will go their whole life without moving from a small area. such as burrows and whatnot. they can't really re-locate in the wild really well considering they work mainly off of either vibrations or a very weak sence of site mainly consisting of light shadows.
anyways that little bugger you had had a great life i am sure.
:)


chill out every one, there will always be a smart A@s somewhere try to prove himself

David Suzuki said there was a guy from a conference raised his hand saying green house effects cause global cooling and it is actually good for the world, global warming is just a big hoax

Some hobbyists just think they are "saving" wc aimals from suffering in pet shop by purchasing them and just get pissed of while they saw their animals are used as feeders somewhere else
but wat is the real suffering to a species? import thousands of them from the wild each year and just lay straight up then die in your own hand, fair to call that ethical?
i think i am kinda out of the topic
cheers anyway

[Tarantula_Hawk]

wow this thread has become long since the last time i saw it (which was a while ago).. anyways i wanted to add some of my experience..this happened 4 years ago..i was in a trip in ethiopia and during stops i'd happen to go around lifting rocks looking for camel spiders...after finding some kinda large yellow scorps i finally ended up in a nice really pissed camel spider.. 4cm body and 6.5 from pedipalp to leg.. anyways i managed to bring it back home in Rome (not gonna tell u how lol).. so i placed it in 50cm cage with about 10cm of sand and rocks.. i was small so didnt have much experience but i fed it regularly, not making him fat... 4 months passed and he was fine... one day he stopped moving, and curled up like a ball under a rock.. he didnt eat nor moved.. but i could see he sometimes slowly moved his legs..A LOT of time passed with him staying in this condition.. probably 6months and im not exagerating.. i was sure he was dead.. one day he wakes up from nowhere.. was during the summer.. he wakes and molts.. unfortunatley during the molt something went wrong and one of his chelicerae didnt harden and bended like rubber.. he coudlnt eat and eventually died.. i gotta say when he woke up he wasnt active as he was when i first cought him but he still walked around and dug..... im assuming the time he passed curled up under a rock was because he was hibernating?.. just wanted to opst my experience.. and Btw i still have him (dead ofc) and his molt :)

[Randolph XX()]

Now i wonder is there any model set up for us to look up to now?
ex, like Martin Hubber and V.V. wirth's Haplopelma and other burrowing spiders bookshelves type set up

[desert solifuge]

The bibliography on solifuge behaviour or general biology is scarce and spread in several scientific publications, the only overview is the website www.solpugid.com (that although incomplete, is my opinion the most reliable source of information on the group) and the already mentioned Punzo's book.
There are no general advices except for the ones found there, which are based on one North American species or at most, on one family, but solifugae are a pretty diverse order, I wouldn't say that the advices are valid for all solifuges species, especially considering that, for what I have seen, most of the available specimens for sale are of foreign origins and not North American at all.

Which reminds me that there is a member of the list who is selling Israeli solifuges,
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=885013
unfortunately I can't reply to his post and so I can't place my questions there, but I have been to Israel and being aware of Israeli laws I must ask:
Can someone collect solifuges in the wild, (as is obviously the case) and sell them online ???
Can someone legally sell solifuges at all ???

[desert solifuge]

Here are some sites that debate captive kept solifugae care:

http://www.technospider.com/~ts_tgearheart/pages/solifugid.htm

And another one:

http://www.goldenphoenixexotica.com/scorp.html

Although the specimens in this one are not pregnant, has the author probably discovered latter, a gravid female would actually look like that

http://www.solpugid.com/Galeodidae.htm

[Arachnoporium]

I was given a tip my someone who knows more than I. They are oppertunistic burrowers and will inhabit and reconstruct a burrow. This is not on soft desert sand but hard solidified sand become slightly moist as the bottom of the burrow. I have had great luck using ZooMeds 'Excavator' for G. grandi and fuzzy Solifugids. What kind of substrate do solifugids generally need?

anyone?

[Scorpendra]

what other requirements would you say solifugids need? should heat and humidity closely mimic those of a desert environment or be lowered to an extent in order to prevent their metabolisms from burning up too quickly?

[mitchnast]

well, heres what ive done, i have 2 desert-collected specimines, i put potting soil down as the base, then planted desert-dwelling short grasses and put a few rocks around,
then i spread dried rocky desert grit/sand over that, resembling the desert, and added some gneiss and shale stones from the desert for hiding spots.

i wetted the potting soil first, it should hold the moisture to radiate ambiant humidity up thru the sand. burrowing should also work well in the potting soil.

the plants provide habitat simulation and break up the animals roaming lines. then also provide a challanging obsticle, Ive noticed them exploting around the base of the grass and wedging in and out.

i expect they will hit the winter dormancy stage soon, i have a cuppbord in the basement that goes about 5-10C all winter and stays sorta humid, similar to the bottom of a pile of desert rocks in the winter. so we shall see how that goes. that shall be the hibernaculum

[mechwar]

It is good to hear that they can live a while in captivity. I have been wanting to get one for a while. Who out there in the US has any for sale?

Jason at TheArachnoporium.com has fuzzy solifugids for sale.

[Pink-Poodle88]

I've wanted a solifugid for a long time, but because of the supposed relatively short lifespan, I never planned on ever actually get one. This is why even though I love all arthropods, I prefer to keep tarantulas mainly, though I do like to keep others as well.

A bit off topic, but I really hate all the rumors that your average person thinks about solifugids or "camel spiders" thanks to the media(though those of us that know better know that they aren't spiders at all in the first place, but that's irrelevant) such as them getting two feet long, running 40 miles per hour, killing and eating camels, chasing people down and sucking out their brains... all sorts of ridiculous crap like that which sounds like it came from a low budget 1950's horror movie.

Pretty much all arachnids(and many other animals as well) have a completely undeserved bad reputation though, which usually leads to fear, hatred, and unnecessary violence towards completely innocent animals. As one who loves and feels compassion for all animals, especially since arachnids and arthropods in general were always my favorites, this kind of stuff really disgusts me. Unfortunately, it probably won't ever change. People will continue refuse to educate themselves and will continue to hate spiders/insects/etc. for completely illogical reasons. Ignorance causes fear, hatred, and violence, common sense. This rule applies to people, culture, and as demonstrated all the time, even animals.

[Arachnoporium]

Keeping many Galeodes granti (supposedly the largest of all Solifugids) I can say with complete confidence that they have nothing on a Haplopelma sp. or a Pterinochilus sp.

They are amazing and certainly alien-like. Yes they can be fast and you surely don't want to get your fingers stuck on those Chelicerae (which look like a beak of sorts). Yes, they can be fast - but I can safely take the lid off of the enclosure and tweezer feed them crickets with no real worries of one running out. Currently the largest I have is 7".

As for longevity, I still have some quite large specimens which I imported in July (CB attempt) and then a whole new batch. If you mimic their natural habitat VERY CLOSELY I feel they can easily live for quite some time.

Zoo Med's excavator was a life saving key, which was a tip I was given from someone who has kept this Egyptian species in the past and is quite knowledgeable on their care. I also received some tips from an Arachnologist in Cairo - in the wild they live on hard, dry cracked sand and are opportunistic burrowers taking over the burrow of a desert rodent and reconstructing it to their own liking.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/arachnoporium/solocheli-stephatjas026.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/arachnoporium/g-granti3.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/arachnoporium/g-granti-4.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t306/arachnoporium/Solifugids-NajaHaje002.jpg

*Bit the bullet today and bought a new computer - should not have any more email issues, although I have hundreds to catch up on.

I've wanted a solifugid for a long time, but because of the supposed relatively short lifespan, I never planned on ever actually get one. This is why even though I love all arthropods, I prefer to keep tarantulas mainly, though I do like to keep others as well.

A bit off topic, but I really hate all the rumors that your average person thinks about solifugids or "camel spiders" thanks to the media(though those of us that know better know that they aren't spiders at all in the first place, but that's irrelevant) such as them getting two feet long, running 40 miles per hour, killing and eating camels, chasing people down and sucking out their brains... all sorts of ridiculous crap like that which sounds like it came from a low budget 1950's horror movie.

Pretty much all arachnids(and many other animals as well) have a completely undeserved bad reputation though, which usually leads to fear, hatred, and unnecessary violence towards completely innocent animals. As one who loves and feels compassion for all animals, especially since arachnids and arthropods in general were always my favorites, this kind of stuff really disgusts me. Unfortunately, it probably won't ever change. People will continue refuse to educate themselves and will continue to hate spiders/insects/etc. for completely illogical reasons. Ignorance causes fear, hatred, and violence, common sense. This rule applies to people, culture, and as demonstrated all the time, even animals.

[bistrobob85]

Does anyone have access to a PDF version of Punzo's book? I know it's an odd question but i'd like to print some copies on which i could write my own comments...

phil.

[Zach Valois]

Never heard of one, although i suggest that the money for the book is very well spent. And there are many online journals articles pertaining to Solifugae. And from what Warren tells me the US Solifugae research team will soon be posting a large collection of Solifugae related publications on their website (solpugid.com).
Though i still doubt that Punzo's entire book will be posted. You can try and contact Punzo himself.

[Venom]

Just a random thought- ( and no, I haven't read the whole thread, so it may have already been posted ), but these things come from the desert, right? Has anyone tried extending their lifespan by radically lowering their night-time temperatures, as occurs in the desert? Perhaps it is more than just hibernating in winter...maybe they are used to cooling off every evening. :? Good idea? Dumb idea?

[Tarantula_Hawk]

not sure about it... but solifuges are known to not be active throughout the whole year so hibernation is probably part of their life

[syph]

ive just ordered a solifugid and im wondering... should i give it ample space like most websites say or now that we're doubting the previous common care rules of them should the conditions be more cosy? i really doubt they need to feed as much as caresheets suggest because there cant be that much food in the desert.

cheers

[mitchnast]

just an update on the two i had, they didn't wake up.
but then i didn't do anything special, maybe if i try again with a deli cup full of peat in the crawlspace next fall....

[eL Tre]

god, certain times of the year and these things are EVERYWHERE on the mesa area i live in. Always have been interested by them, its by far the most agressive insect iv encountered locally...

not sure exactly what the local genus is ill have to look it up.

[mitchnast]

You're probably going to want to start in the family Eremobatidae

[treeweta]

i finally saw my first wild solifugid in california a few weeks ago, a small 3/4 inch specimem, just a fleeting glance, no idea what species.

[j.everson23]

i finally saw my first wild solifugid in california a few weeks ago, a small 3/4 inch specimem, just a fleeting glance, no idea what species.

I didnt know that these were native to California.......:?

[Zoltan]

Hey, j.everson, check out [this] (http://www.solpugid.com/Global%20Distribution.htm) picture, it's a Solifugae distribution map.

[Mr Benn]

Hi!

So what conclusions did we take from this, then?

And does anyone know of any place where I can get any of the larger one's now?

Thanks

[codykrr]

hmm...so ccording to the distribution map...they should be in south west missouri!:? ive never heard of any or seen one....o even heard of someoneseeing onearound here....just how accurate is that map? oh and also for an update....the book "the biology of camel spiders" price has increase quite a bit....cheapest i found $150.00 usd and it ranges all the way up to $270.00 usd.....on kindle it is like $185.00 from amazon.com.

[CaliAgents1688]

Can anyone point me to a good source of where to purchase camel spiders?

I am in Northern California and had a bit of experience with Solfugids in the past, however I would like to keep some more and hopefully add value to this forum with my findings.

Thanks

[codykrr]

acually you should be able to ind them outside. there isnt really anysources to buy these. mainly due to the lack of breeding knowledge. sorry