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Rigelus
07-23-2006, 06:07 AM
<poop> I just found out that my A.australis and L.q are forbidden scorpions in Denmark.
Yet just over the border in Germany (where i got mine) theres no problems. Crikey those characters have got it all, no speed limit on the motorways, cleanest red light area in europe and curried bockwurst.

"What to do now :? " he asked in a not asking a question sort of way, "guess that put's a downer on discussing them on the Danish forums :confused: ".

Steffen
07-23-2006, 06:54 AM
Get rid of them. Btw. they have been illegal to keep since Jan. 2003.

http://147.29.40.91/DELFIN/HTML/B2002/0102105.htm

ScorpDude
07-23-2006, 06:59 AM
Either get rid of them or tell nobody about them :P

Darwinsdad
07-23-2006, 07:47 AM
Your best option is very obvious. You need to get rid of the specimens in question and do so in a legal and if at all possible humane way. Selling them back over the border in Germany would seem the most sensible but since I am not in your position I can but only speculate.

Rigelus
07-23-2006, 11:23 AM
Yes Steffen i didn't know that but do now i guess and Darwinsdad (was'nt he a priest!) that option is allready in effect.

I was leaning over to communal scorpions anyway.

ReptileMan27
07-23-2006, 12:25 PM
Im sure if you kept them no one would now the difference if you didnt advertise that you had them. But thats up to you :)

Steffen
07-23-2006, 12:42 PM
Im sure if you kept them no one would now the difference if you didnt advertise that you had them. But thats up to you :)
It's a small country. If he got stung, it could have ill effects on the whole hobby and the media would go crazy and write about KILLER SCORPIONS and the politicians might just someday consider to make every single animal illegal. This is a worst-case scenario and perhaps a bit exaggerated aswell, however the theory is very realistic in Denmark these days. There is no antidote either.

Another thing that comes to mind is, if he didn't know about the laws of the country, I would assume he haven't been in the hobby for a very long time and therefor those species wouldn't be the best choise for him.

Even if we forgot about these facts for a while, your are in fact, actually encouring him to break the law! Seriously bad advise...honestly!

Example: Not that long ago a man died in Sweden. The man had a P. imperator. Guess what the press wrote? Every single person in Scandinavia knew about it in a second and obviously P. imperator is the most deadly and aggressive beast on the planet, wich mainly feeds on small kids and weak people.

JSN
07-23-2006, 01:15 PM
yeah, I'd keep them, and if someone ever asks (which they probably wont), just say "oh their such and such" and dont tell anyone the real species...

monty_
07-23-2006, 01:19 PM
Example: Not that long ago a man died in Sweden. The man had a P. imperator. Guess what the press wrote? Every single person in Scandinavia knew about it in a second and obviously P. imperator is the most deadly and aggressive beast on the planet, wich mainly feeds on small kids and weak people.

The scorpion didnt kill him. I think he died of some infection.

Rigelus
07-23-2006, 02:29 PM
No Steffen, i've not been in the scorpion section of exotic insects for so long, just a touch over half a year but our tropical room has been up and running for about 4 years now so i'm not that green.
As for what i should and shouldn't have well thats up to me now isn't it!.
I'll concede that in this particular case the law is not on my side so theres no argument there but all this "a beginner should start at the bottom of the ladder" cr*p wears pretty thin with me.

BTW, do you drive? are you up to date with all the traffic laws.......

Steffen
07-23-2006, 02:34 PM
Exactly Monty. That's the whole point. :)

Rigelus - No I don't drive. Anyway I don't think you can compare it. Even then, do you think it justifies breaking a law because you break another one? :P

PIter
07-23-2006, 02:42 PM
Androctonus spp., Buthus spp., Centruroides spp., Tityus spp., Hottentotta spp., Leiurus spp. samt Parabuthus spp.

:wall:

You guys have some damned lame laws!

sick4x4
07-23-2006, 03:35 PM
i think we as hobbiest, should set the example...we are tring to futher the hobby, not hinder it...i know, i know, its not the responce we really want to hear...yet we are the people with the knowledge to disern right and wrong...we have at sometime broken laws.going to fast, not wearing a seatbelt,smoking pot!!!ect.ect....thats not an excuse to futher break them. so using that as an example isn't warnited...and its kinda petty and childish...if its not lawfull to keep these species then dont..encourging someone to break the law is foolish...best thing to do is find out what it would take to get them legal..write letters, find out the people u need to talk to, and talk to them....if knowledge is what it is needed then you have a wealth of it here on the boards..im glad u posted this statement..its something that should be made clear to all hobbist's....dont be the one selfish guy that ruin's it for everone else.....experiance speaks for itself...perfect example michael has finally done enough work to get aussie t's in the U.S. of coarse there might have been a few with these t's illegally but because of years of work they are finally legal to get in the U.S....follow this example..and one day in the very near future..they will be legal..thats what the hobby is about!!this was'nt directed at anyone so please dont take offence...remember we are the only voice for these animals....

Crotalus
07-23-2006, 06:26 PM
<poop> I just found out that my A.australis and L.q are forbidden scorpions in Denmark.
Yet just over the border in Germany (where i got mine) theres no problems. Crikey those characters have got it all, no speed limit on the motorways, cleanest red light area in europe and curried bockwurst.

"What to do now :? " he asked in a not asking a question sort of way, "guess that put's a downer on discussing them on the Danish forums :confused: ".

You can thank your danish herpetological society (http://nhf.dk/homepage/)
for that law. They worked over 15 years of trying to get that law in use and a few years ago they succeeded. One thing that should be mentioned is one of the boardmembers breeds a smaller crocodile species (perhaps caiman) and that species was not on the list of forbidden animals..
That societys member should be ashamed.

dGr8-1
07-24-2006, 06:12 AM
Boy! this is one tough topic. The law as against our hobby (better yet our passion and love for these animals.)

Best of luck guys.

Steffen
07-24-2006, 06:38 AM
Crotalus - That can't be the whole truth. Why would NHF be interested in making inverts illegal? The society only concerns herps. As far as I've heard, Henrik Herold should have something to do with it aswell.

ScorpDude
07-24-2006, 06:49 AM
Just say you bought it as a desert hairy and didn't know better, you do hear stories every now and again of dangerous being mis-id'd and being sold as harmless scorpions.

Rigelus
07-24-2006, 08:23 AM
No Steffan you've got it all wrong, you to 4x4.
My point with the driving had nothing to do with law Vs law. My point was that just because I didn't know the law had changed 4 years ago, it don't make me a moron...Or, you don't have to know the highway code inside and out to be a competent and safe driver.

However Steffen does have a point!
For all you's out there who may have heard that Denmark has a free and liberal society I've got some bad news for you, it's hasn't. Hysterical, conservative and naive I would say. One person with a big complaining mouth can do a lot of damage over here, especially if their complaint has a ring of "sensibility" to it and won't actually cost anything to implement.

As for changing a law that took 15 years to bring into effect. I can say right now that it would take a better man than me to pull that off. The opposition would be real tough and at the end of the day I'd be a foreigner living in Denmark trying to tell them what to do. Remember the hysterical I mentioned....!!!

No that sort of thing would have to be initiated by a Dane and a Dane within the loop to boot.

I wonder on a country by country basis just how many people have been stung and killed by these species that are banned in Denmark. I'd be especially interested in knowing how many people had died in other Scandinavian countries plus Germany, Belgium, France, UK, Holland, Austria and Switzerland.
Is there anyone out there in these respective countries that have ever heard of anyone being killed or seriously injured for that matter by a dangerous scorpion that was kept by a hobbyist?

Arietans
07-24-2006, 09:43 AM
This topic is fascinating. I thought only my country was insane.

Here, I need to belong to a Herp society for a minimum of one year. Then one of the other members has to "donate" an indigenous animal to me. I am still not allowed to sell, transport or export it.

Furthermore, I have to do a "venomous animals" course if I want to keep something dangerous.

But....

A twelve year old can buy a Saw scaled viper at a petshop, and he only needs his parents permission.

Rigelus, even though it frustrates and angers you, you will make the rest of the hobbiests look very bad if you did get stung. It does suck, but the bigger picture is always more important. Our hobby is generally frowned upon by society. No one can understand why you would want to keep something that could potentially end your life. To further their cause, they will use every bad thing as an argument.

Whether people have died or not isn't the point, but what I can tell you is that people have been severely disfigured by their captives.

The governing bodies usually look at things as a whole. While we never really agree with it, they do have an argument. If your scorpion had to escape and sting a child, who subsequently dies or is disfigured because no doctor knows what's wrong, you might see things slightly differently. You may argue "but my scorpion will never escape", which it might not. But your neighbour's might.

Unfortunately there are people out there that spoil this hobby for responsible keepers. We just have to grin and bear it, and keep trying to educate the public that not everyone that keeps these things are phsycologically challenged.

Crotalus
07-24-2006, 10:30 AM
Crotalus - That can't be the whole truth. Why would NHF be interested in making inverts illegal? The society only concerns herps. As far as I've heard, Henrik Herold should have something to do with it aswell.

The society have over and over the years written articles on why they want to see a ban against some terrarium animals. The society only concerns some terrarium animals such as corns, kings etc.
Now they got the law and in that law some inverts was included. No one protested, not even Exotiske Insekter.

Steffen
07-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Yes it's a bit sad. Most members of Eksotiske insekter keep spiders and stick insects etc. and not that many keep scorpions, so that might have something to do with it. I'm one of the few scorpion freaks left in EI. :D

Crotalus
07-24-2006, 10:54 AM
Yes it's a bit sad. Most members of Eksotiske insekter keep spiders and stick insects etc. and not that many keep scorpions, so that might have something to do with it. I'm one of the few scorpion freaks left in EI. :D

Seems like some species, both inverts and herps, was sacrificed over others. Truly a sad story.

Rigelus
07-24-2006, 11:33 AM
Yeah but thats just it..No one is really interested in our actual welfare and good being, it's just a political tool.
If laws were passed to help and protect us and make us feel more secure and that was the overriding principal behind all decision making then how come smoking is legal, how come anyone (with the money) can buy a car that can go 200 mph, how come hospitals are underfunded and how come we have a system that allows a smart, quick-tongued prosecuter to send a innocent man to jail.
No no no Arietans, laws are not just passed so that you and i can have a better life (allthough admitted it is a bi-product, sometimes).
Laws are also passed to make money and/or give political control. Besides, just because something is law doesn't make it right. Just look around the laws of different cultures throughout the world to convince yourself of that. Einstein said a good thing once (i guess he said a lot of good things) that has allways had meaning for me, he said "everything is relative".
My common sense is someone else's crazy thinking and somebodys else's sunday dinner is my rabbit's food.

Yeah i know i'm subversive and critical but you know what, i can't help it..My youth was spent waiting for the commies and the yanks to start world war3.
Sort of knocked the cosy nosy rosy society of the pitch..

Lastly Arietans i'm not really angry or frustrated, just dissapointed. Oppression by politicians is one thing but oppression that is instigated by joe public is just so sad. I used to say that "if we could just get rid of religion then we can really start to progress as a race" but nowadays i know thats wrong. It's not religion thats gotta go it's humans that have got to grow up and develop.

Hold up there, weren't this a thread about forbidden scorpions........."swallow", It must have been that crooked, twisted and bitter world dictator that rose up in me again...

Steffen
07-24-2006, 12:39 PM
Either way, regarding topic, I wouldn't keep lethal scorpions even if they were legal. I'm actually afraid I got stung. But I would keep some of the less dangerous Centroides species though. :)

PIter
07-24-2006, 12:46 PM
Exotiske Insekter.

Exotic insects.

sick4x4
07-24-2006, 01:22 PM
Yeah but thats just it..No one is really interested in our actual welfare and good being, it's just a political tool.
If laws were passed to help and protect us and make us feel more secure and that was the overriding principal behind all decision making then how come smoking is legal, how come anyone (with the money) can buy a car that can go 200 mph, how come hospitals are underfunded and how come we have a system that allows a smart, quick-tongued prosecuter to send a innocent man to jail.
No no no Arietans, laws are not just passed so that you and i can have a better life (allthough admitted it is a bi-product, sometimes).
Laws are also passed to make money and/or give political control. Besides, just because something is law doesn't make it right. Just look around the laws of different cultures throughout the world to convince yourself of that. Einstein said a good thing once (i guess he said a lot of good things) that has allways had meaning for me, he said "everything is relative".
My common sense is someone else's crazy thinking and somebodys else's sunday dinner is my rabbit's food.

Yeah i know i'm subversive and critical but you know what, i can't help it..My youth was spent waiting for the commies and the yanks to start world war3.
Sort of knocked the cosy nosy rosy society of the pitch..

Lastly Arietans i'm not really angry or frustrated, just dissapointed. Oppression by politicians is one thing but oppression that is instigated by joe public is just so sad. I used to say that "if we could just get rid of religion then we can really start to progress as a race" but nowadays i know thats wrong. It's not religion thats gotta go it's humans that have got to grow up and develop.

Hold up there, weren't this a thread about forbidden scorpions........."swallow", It must have been that crooked, twisted and bitter world dictator that rose up in me again...
laws wether or not we like them are laws..this is what makes us different from 3rd world countrys!!!i uderstand what you are saying though, and yes just because its the law dosent make it right...but laws are in place for what ever reason to protect us as a people..wether we like it or not..other wise child molesters, drug dealers, mobs, and every kind of criminal would be running crazy...we cant pick and choose what laws we choose to obey!!!if its illegal to own then dont own it!!!!if for some reason he was to get stung by an aa, or lq and it was illegal to own!!it would hurt or even destory any chance of it ever becoming legal.....so who do you help by owning them!!how selfish is that.....

Prymal
07-24-2006, 01:34 PM
Rigelus,

It's the bane of righteous men - politricks and politricksters!

Rigelus
07-24-2006, 02:00 PM
Woh..back up there 4x4, thats the second time you've gone running off on the high and mighty and also the second time you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
It's now a day after this thread started. Who say's that these scorp's are now in the country. Show me the quote in my posts where i said i was going to keep them.

Steffan:
I don't know why you are scared of getting stung. Don't you trust yourself, are you afraid of your arms suddenly refusing to obey your brain.
I wouldn't want to be stung either but as long as you don't put your hands in the terrarium and follow the "no handling" etiquet and use long forceps and containers to move your scorpions on the few occasions it's required, whats the problem.
Yeah, i know accidents can happen but thats life, right?

BTW a young girl was killed at the start of the year here in Denmark. She had her throat tore out by a pet dog. She bled to death on the pavement before anyone could help her. Her family was totally destroyed. She was only a little girl....
Theres been no mention of making pet dogs illegal.

Rigelus
07-24-2006, 02:04 PM
Politricks and politricksters...chuckle, yeah i like that..

Deolok
07-24-2006, 02:14 PM
Pet dog eh? It could be just some political figure that stands against scorpions because they are "icky," and he found some one sided medically degreed being to say something like, "Whelp, they are deffinently medically significantly venomous and I dont recommend them to be as pet." People dont realize, that its just a reccommendation, not an exact order... But he also didn't realize that those puppy dogs have temperment problems or are not to well suited for small children, but people still have them... Though, laws are laws...Most likely they broken, and whats the worse they could do to you? Take your scorp, and slap you on the wrist with a good tongue lashing...or a fine? {D

sick4x4
07-24-2006, 02:45 PM
<poop> I just found out that my A.australis and L.q are forbidden scorpions in Denmark.
Yet just over the border in Germany (where i got mine) theres no problems. Crikey those characters have got it all, no speed limit on the motorways, cleanest red light area in europe and curried bockwurst.

"What to do now :? " he asked in a not asking a question sort of way, "guess that put's a downer on discussing them on the Danish forums :confused: ".
from this quote im guessing u already have them..i wasnt tring to say ur going keep them...i was answering 2 other quotes in one should of made that clear...dont get me wrong i agree with you on alot of the points..im just conserned that newbies will get an idea about keeping these illegally because they read this post not the quoted one above but some of the more liberal views on right and wrong...law verses idealism...im just tring to make it really clear!! if the law says you cant have them, then dont thats all...

Steffen
07-24-2006, 02:54 PM
Rigelus - Getting stung, that's just life? I'm sure you meant "That was that life". :D I'm speechless.... ofcourse everyone should use protective methods and equipment, but I think you need to experience some of the faster species.

i.e. do you think you can outsmart this scorpion?
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=69673&highlight=dune+scorpion
I don't think your brain reacts faster than this scorpion or alot other species. Several barkscorpions are lethal aswell... have you ever pissed of a barkscorpion? Lychas i.e. are faster than you would think. Now replace that Lychas with a Tityus or likewise....

Rigelus
07-25-2006, 02:22 AM
No i meant "Thats life" , just like what i wrote.
As i said before Steffan "everything is relative". Your statements make it plain that you obviously disagree with me. Thats your perogative.

Do you have a microwave oven in your house. They do blow up now and again you know!!, probably with the same frequency that people in the west are killed by scorpions.
Do you shield yourself from possible blast damage when you use it.

The chances of actually being killed in traffic are considerably higher than dieing of a scorpion sting. Do you break out into a sweat every time you go out for a drive.

I have respect for these animals but i'm not scared of them.
I'm confident that (and at the end of the day, thats what it's all about) my safety measures are more than adequate. If you feel somehow that it's only a matter of time before you hear your "worst case scenario" in the press then thats up to you. I aint gonna lose no sleep over it.

BTW just to bring this to a close now....Both australis and quinquestriatus HAVE left the country....

Scorp guy
07-25-2006, 02:40 AM
No i meant "Thats life" , just like what i wrote.
As i said before Steffan "everything is relative". Your statements make it plain that you obviously disagree with me. Thats your perogative.

Do you have a microwave oven in your house. They do blow up now and again you know!!, probably with the same frequency that people in the west are killed by scorpions.
Do you shield yourself from possible blast damage when you use it.

The chances of actually being killed in traffic are considerably higher than dieing of a scorpion sting. Do you break out into a sweat every time you go out for a drive.

I have respect for these animals but i'm not scared of them.
I'm confident that (and at the end of the day, thats what it's all about) my safety measures are more than adequate. If you feel somehow that it's only a matter of time before you hear your "worst case scenario" in the press then thats up to you. I aint gonna lose no sleep over it.

BTW just to bring this to a close now....Both australis and quinquestriatus HAVE left the country....



The chances of actually being killed in traffic are considerably higher than dieing of a scorpion sting.

no, not at all;) It depends the keeper, the chances vary by a LOT, an inexpeierenced noob has much, much higher chance of being stung, IF they dont know what they are doing. It all depends.

Steffen
07-25-2006, 05:08 AM
In fact I do get nervous when im driving very fast. But I do need to be transported around. I don't need to have a lethal scorpion. It's still an odd compare if you ask me. :)

Btw. I'm not scared of them either. I just don't need to take the chances, when there is lots of nonlethal scorpions.

Deolok
07-25-2006, 10:00 AM
I think I enjoyed the cigerete comparison the most. Maybe you should move to the US Rig. Move down south and start a scorpion ranch :) Thats my plans.