New Snakes And Pics! [Archive]

Phillip

04-20-2003, 10:36 PM

Seeing as how I never had it regurge. If not stress then perhaps the temp is off. I kept it at a constant 83ish. Lower is ok but it has become acclimated to that temp so perhaps the combination of the temp change and the handling which it got hardly any of from me stressed it. Wait a few days and try again and you should have no problem. Another thing is they don't take well to being handled after eating so when you feed it leave it be for a day or two.

Phil

Bry

04-20-2003, 11:59 PM

Well, you might not listen to me as I've not been around here as long as other members. But, I feel I need to say something. The regurge was probably due to stress or temps being too low. When a snake regurges, they lose a lot of their gut flora, and dehydrate easily. Feeding again too soon will most likely cause a regurge and dehydrate them further. I suggest you wait two weeks before feeding to allow them to replenish their gut flora. Be sure to keep them at proper temps and humidity, especially after feeding. In the meantime, I would mix Pedialyte (formulated drink for infants and toddlers) in the water. This will help rehydrate them and replenish their gut flora also. Good luck.

Bry

Deathreaver

04-21-2003, 01:56 AM

Thanks for the advice,
I normally keep my room in the low 80's high 70's, but sometimes at night it will get in the 60's in my home, so I'll keep an eye on the temps. As for handleing, pategirl told me that you don't need to handle them until a few hours after feeding, so I left them both in the empty deli cups for around 2 or 3 hours yesterday after feeding, but I am pretty sure it was stress. I handled her alot on the way home from the show, and I was adjusting her new home a lil with her in it after feeding (fed her after we got home) I'll be a lil more careful. But I don't think I am doing to horribly bad for a first time have legless friends in the house as pets (though I have been know to feed wild snakes out side to keep them near the house, and handle them a lil ;P ) Just to tell you how the corn is she ate her two pinkys and when I tried to give the king her second, after about an hour i gave the pinky to the corn to, so I guess she was hungery cause she took them both in nothing flat. I did put a larger water bowl in both cases too.
Thanks,
DPS

Deathreaver

04-21-2003, 02:17 AM

ps >I ment to say that I didn't handle her much after feeding (just putting her back into her home, and moving her to the side of the tank so i could clean water dish and stuff) yesterday (but my sister might of while i wasn't looking)

Baphomet

04-21-2003, 02:51 AM

Deathreaver,

Get those snakes off that potting soil!

Grey Bands Lampropeltis alterna are NOT moisture-loving snakes, and potting soil (especially that styrofoam/pearlite) can cause impactions if swallowed.

Potting soil is a MAJOR bacteria-farm as well. If too moist, lethal levels of bacteria (resulting from feces) can occur...as well as scale rot due to the dampness.

Go with either Aspen bedding (never pine or cedar), CareFresh, Reptile Bark...even plain ol' paper-towels.

As far as regurging goes, I am sure it was stress related, however, temps in the 60's are much too cool for your Grey Band in the evening...the Corn will do ok with it, but the Grey Band will not.

You will find one thing out about Alterna...they are fussy in regards to thier husbandry and environment.

...Nice lookin' "Blairs" though! :)

Bry

04-21-2003, 04:01 AM

Oh wow, I can't believe I overlooked the substrate aspect. Yes, definitely get them off that substrate as soon as possible. They are a desert species. That substrate really isn't appropriate for any snakes that I know of, even the humidity-loving species. Go with the substrates that Baphomet recommended. Sand isn't a good choice, if that's what you're thinking. The way you described the temps, I have to wonder, do you use a heating pad or a dome light on one side of the tank? One or both is a necessity for all snakes, especially for a desert species. Read some caresheets on temperature and humidity requirements for these snakes. Keep handling to a minimum shortly after feeding, which means transferring snake from feeding tub to its cage. Otherwise, don't handle your snake at all for at least 48 hours after feeding to give them a chance to digest. This isn't intended to flame anyone. I'm just looking out for the best interest of your alternas. :)

Bry

atavuss

04-21-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Baphomet
Deathreaver,

Get those snakes off that potting soil!

Grey Bands Lampropeltis alterna are NOT moisture-loving snakes, and potting soil (especially that styrofoam/pearlite) can cause impactions if swallowed.

Potting soil is a MAJOR bacteria-farm as well. If too moist, lethal levels of bacteria (resulting from feces) can occur...as well as scale rot due to the dampness.

Go with either Aspen bedding (never pine or cedar), CareFresh, Reptile Bark...even plain ol' paper-towels.

I have had good results with calci-sand and for my messy herps I have been using a new product, it is a pelleted aspen..........smells nice, absorbs odors and dries feces up for easy spot removal, and most importantly IMO, very low dust compared to other herp substrates.
It is my feeling to not handle a snake for at least a day, if not several days after they have been fed to prevent them from regurgitating their food items. I have never had a problem with any of my snakes regurgitating.
also, to expand on the paper toweling for substrate I use it during the quarintine period (minimum of 30 days, usually 60 days) to moniter for mites, it makes it easy to check their feces for any problems too.
I use paper toweling exclusively for my frogs as it is easier to clean up, does not look as nice as a planted terrarium though.
Ed

Phillip

04-21-2003, 12:53 PM

I do fully agree that the potting soil needs to go. Any of the previously mentioned substrates would be far better. A couple of statements are however incorrect. 1st off Greybands are not fussy or particular about their environment at all. The only fussy thing about them is that when newly hatched some prefer lizards to mice and can be problematic to switch over. As far as temps for them go the same temps that work for corns work fine for Greybands as well. Yes they come from a more desert environment but the environment they come from also dips down pretty low in the evenings. Now for a young one and more importantly a recently fed one temps hitting the 60s are indeed too low but a constant 80 to 85 is perfect for them and will never cause a problem at all. Also the blanket statement of all snakes need a heat lamp and or heat rock is wrong. If you are keeping your house cool then yes it is needed for some species but many colubrids actually prefer the mid 70s to low 80s and some like mountain kings and mandarins will perish if kept in the high 80s. Corns are another snake that does not need heat if kept at the 80 degree and up range. Gophers are the same way as are Hognose. I have been keeping and breeding colubrids succesfully for around 15 years now and know full well of what I speak on the subject. During this time I have learned not only from my own experiences but from chatting regularily with several breeders with many more years in it than myself like Applegate, Hollister and many others. They don't heat their Greybands either and do very well with them. I do have to agree though that if the house is dipping below the high 70s then yes put a heat pad under a portion of the enclosure to insure adequate digesting temps and please do lose the soil. :)

Phil

Bry

04-21-2003, 01:48 PM

Also the blanket statement of all snakes need a heat lamp and or heat rock is wrong. If you are keeping your house cool then yes it is needed for some species but many colubrids actually prefer the mid 70s to low 80s and some like mountain kings and mandarins will perish if kept in the high 80s.

I do not doubt your experience or connections with big-name breeders. But, I have to say, I disagree with you on the point above. While I do agree that each species has their own requirements, and that some species need more heat than others. I never said that snakes need heat rocks, because they do not, at all costs. I've heard of too many instances where snakes have burned themselves on them. Snakes need some kind of thermal gradient to regulate body temperature. In the wild, snakes utilize sunlight, shade, and water to regulate their body temperature. For species with lower temperature needs, this can be achieved with low wattage bulbs. There are 15 watt and 7 1/2 watt bulbs that will fit in a regular light socket. This may not sound like much, but snakes do need the gradient. That is not a myth.

Bry

Deathreaver

04-21-2003, 04:48 PM

Ok,
First thing first, I do use a basic desk lamp and a heat produceing bulb for heat during the day to keep the snakes in the 80's and high 70's. I'm not sure that I agree with the getting rid of the poting soil, though I know it is not the best. I am some what of a clean freak, and I know that i'll change the substrate once every other week, if not more often. I only use the potting soil b/c it is really cheat and both of the snake seem happy with it. The corn like to borrow into the soft soil, and so does the greyband. I don't think that sand would be good for my situation mainly b/c that sand hold heat, and witha lamp warming the snakes home, it could actually cause burns like the heat rocks. I am a college student and most of the day and night I am at class, so I am not home to turn off the lamp, and I can't afford a timer for it yet. I will keep looking for a better substrate, but for now I think for how small the snakes are and the temp of my home, that potting soil is idea for me.

Phillip

04-21-2003, 05:19 PM

While I will give you that having a thermal gradient never hurts as well as you not having mentioned heat rocks I have to say this. Disagree all you want but you will still be wrong. Not trying to start any crap or talk down to anyone just pointing out that I have bred several colubrid species through the years and guess what... up until this year no heat. That's right last year I had nearly 100% hatch rate on my corns and a full 100% on the gophers with no heat whatsoever. Snakes do not reproduce if conditions are not right and they dont hatch out 100% unless they are optimal. This happened in an office that never topped 80 with no heat pad or lights whatsoever. With boas and pythons the need for heat is certainly there but with many colubrids it is greatly over emphasised. As I said before try keeping some of the more delicate species like the kings from higher elevations with a heat lamp and what you wind up with is dead snakes. How do I know this? Because I have done it not because I read about it somewhere. Again not trying to rip ya just trying to point out that experience will teach you that the majority of north american colubrids do fantastic in room temps or just a tad higher ( depends on how you keep your room ) and they have no digestion problems when kept at 80.

Phil

Deathreaver

04-21-2003, 06:10 PM

Thanks again phil,
I've got my tank to be balenced around 84 today. by using the lamp. and I am gona try to kkep it around 80 to night, I 'm gona yurn off my ac to see if it will stay a lil more warm, and that way I won' t need the lamp tomorrow. Plus I am gona try to find something to use for a substrate. I didn't mean to come across stuborn. sorry. but thanks!

peace dps

Phillip

04-21-2003, 07:55 PM

Not to burst your bubble but the point about changing the substrate is a valid one. The reasons being chance ( although small ) of impaction if eaten and regardless of how clean you try to keep it potting soil harbors bacteria far better than bark or newspaper do. Snake waste is usually loaded with microscopic nasties that tend to dry up and become harmless on bark substrate or newspaper rather quickly where the extra dampness and natural composition of soil cause it to flourish and multiply. Simply put even if it doesn't look bad it can turn bad in a hurry. If the concern is for something they can burrow in then aspen bedding works great as it is stringy and clings together forming burrows as they move through it. They can also burrow under any other bark very easily and will be quite content to do so.

Phil

Deathreaver

04-21-2003, 08:40 PM

MMK, Let try this one more time.
After my 7:00 Pre cal class, I went and got "Critter Care" bedding, and also gave them larger tanks, and placed them near my electronics in my room (to keep them warm during the night and day). I think this should fix all the problems, and I'll still probably clean their tanks often (like i to my aquariums) to prevent illness, and bacteria. It there any other thing I need to worry about?????

Phillip

04-21-2003, 10:26 PM

Good for you changing the substrate. Truth is what you have switched to will be far easier to keep clean and I think you'll like it better after you've used it a while. The only other thing which has already been covered is to give it a few days before feeding again as regurging really stresses them out and don't handle for a while after feeding. Usually when I feed small ones I put them in whatever I'm feeding them in with the mice and leave them in till the next day when I get home so they are left totally alone for nearly 24 hours. You don't have to go to that extreme but it cuts down on the regurge problem with species that are prone to do so when handled after feeding. I honestly don't suspect that this one will give you any more trouble as the only reason I can see for it happening in the 1st place is that I never handled it except to feed it and you handled it quite a bit after buying it which probably freaked it out. Get her out and handle her when she has had a few days to digest and the lump is gone and after a short while she will calm down considerably. Also as with most all small colubrids they tend to lose the squirmy behavior once they get around the 1 and 1/2 to 2 foot size and they start to get over the feeling that everything is out to kill and eat them.

Phil

Baphomet

04-22-2003, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by Phillip
During this time I have learned not only from my own experiences but from chatting regularily with several breeders with many more years in it than myself like Applegate, Hollister and many others. They don't heat their Greybands either and do very well with them. Phil

Uh...I don't want to cause a fuss, but I just talked to Bob Applegate (<no non-business phone numbers -MI>) and Gerold Merker: (<no non-business phone numbers -MI>) today, and they are quite suprised that they informed anyone NOT to heat Alterna.

I have visited both Gerold (Placerville, CA) and Bob (Campo, CA) on numerous occasions, and believe me, they DO have state of the art facilities...and all thier snake cages are outfitted with heat-tape & ambient air temperature(s) complete thier facility(ies).

Enclosed is a photo of Gerold Merkers breeding facility...you will notice the Freedom Breeder rack with heat tape channels in the rear.

Here is an excerp from an article written by Gerold Merker regarding maintaining the proper heat gradient(s) of Alterna:

"What temperatures should the gray-banded
kingsnake be maintained at?"
One of the most important considerations in cage design is creating a thermal gradient in the cage so that the snake has a range of temperatures from which to choose. This easiest way to accomplish this is by placing a heat tape in a routed groove under one side of the cage. To ensure that the heat tape maintains a constant temperature, a good pulse-proportional thermostat, such as those designed by Helix Magnetics® or Micro-climate®, is a vital necessity. These thermostats maintain a constant temperature (+/- 1 °F), thus preventing the cage bottoms from becoming overly warm. Our temperature regimen ranges from 65 °F at the cool end to 88 °F at the warm end of the cage. These temperatures are maintained during spring, summer, and fall.

Phillip

04-22-2003, 09:18 AM

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for some of you guys but I'll try again. If you look back over my posts you will see that I said a constant 80 is fine for Greybands and I also said that room temp is variable as some folks keep their rooms hotter or cooler. Also I did not directly say anything about Merker at all so where you came up with his name I have no clue. As for Applegate keeping heat tape on his racks yes he does but he also doesn't have a room that stays a constant 80. If it did he wouldn't need this extra heat source. And as far as Applegates set up goes his snakes are kept in connected 5 tank units with heat only at one point so each level is a different heat. Another interesting tidbit is that he keeps his kings together ( a supposed no no in the king world ) and also uses sand as substrate ( yet another supposed no no ). I don't point these facts out to make it seem as if he is keeping them wrong it is in fact quite the opposite he takes very good care of them and does extremely well. My point is that several of the set in stone snake rules are not always true. How do I know this from seeing him in a chat room I frequent several times a week and chatting with him often. The question has been brought up and he has assured me that 80 is fine as well as agreeing that if kept that warm supplimental heat isn't needed. Again as you put it not to cause a fuss but I'm not going to argue with folks who haven't kept much less bred enough snakes to know what they are actually talking about and if you keep in mind what I said it was actually that the blanket statement of all snakes needing heat was wrong. Sorry if I come across as blasting anyone but like I said I have been doing this for a long time and really get tired of seeing newbies who happen to read an article in Reptiles and suddenly think they know something try to argue with someone who has actually done it. As I have tried to make clear I am not attempting to rip anyone or talk down to anyone nor am I labeling all of you as clueless newbies. I just don't care for blanket statements saying that all of them must meet these requirements since that is simply not true. My feeling on the subject is however this. When you can match my hatch rate then perhaps you may be onto something I don't already know but until then save the quotes from the golden books reptile keepers guide. :)

Phil

Bry

04-22-2003, 02:31 PM

No comment.

Bry

Deathreaver

04-22-2003, 11:37 PM

Wow, when I posted these pic, I never knew there would be so many arguements. I've always been good at starting them though =D :p ;P

I could see how people have conflicting views. I know some peeps that would use a reptile heating rock or lamp for anything with scales, and then again some poeple perfer to make the whole house the same temp that the snake needs. Oh well, I guess as long as the snake is alive healthy (still biting me) and active it is all good. =D

Bry

04-23-2003, 02:28 PM

Yeah, everyone has their own ways of heating their herps. I just disapprove of heat rocks, because they produce hot spots and can easily burn a reptile. It's like when you put one hand in cold water, and one in hot water. Your brain is gonna average out a middle temp that is comfortable for you to keep holding your hand in the hot water. But when you take them out, you'll have burned the hand that was in hot water.

Bry

Phillip

04-23-2003, 02:36 PM

The heat rock thing is for sure bad. I've had snakes given to me that were burned pretty badly by them before. You would think they would move but it seems as if they can't tell it's too hot for them. Heat pads and lights are much better and safer.

Phil

Bry

04-23-2003, 03:11 PM

A buddy of mine got in a snake that he could not identify. The snake was burned on its belly, and its markings were barely visible. He had to ask the guy what it was, it was a ball python. Apparently, the snake had wrapped itself around the ceramic element of the light dome, which was inside the cage and burned itself beyond recognition. I'm surprised the snake didn't die. :eek:

Bry

Deathreaver

04-23-2003, 09:55 PM

I do agree with the heat rock being bad. Anything that produces heat and comes in durect connection with an animal is bad. They might as well use a piece of hot rod iron, they will get the same effect.

Baphomet

04-24-2003, 12:50 AM

Yeah...pretty amazing that even though ZooMed, a leading manufacturer of "hot rocks" often warns of the dangers of using hot rocks with snakes...yet how many still insist on using them.

But I would also like to point out, I have seen many severe thermal burns on snakes from those who use UTH (Under Tank Heaters) as well.

Too many that think "larger is better"...not so. If you have a 10 gallon RT tank, do NOT believe that purchasing a UTH designed for a 40+ gallon tank is "better". Stick to the manufacturers guidelines (and your specific snakes' requirements) before purchasing a UTH.

Most, not all, UTH are designed to create a "hot spot" 10° - 15° warmer than the ambient air temperature of an enclosure. As you can imagine, a cage that has a ambient temperature of 84° will have a "hot spot" of between 94° - 99°, much higher in the case of Boids who require higher temps than Colubrids.

One of the most overlooked items for many herpers is a quality, digital thermometer with a probe for measuring the exact temperature(s) throughout the animals enclosure.

Many of the cheap, stick-on $2.00 thermometers that attach to the back of a tank are not reliable, and can only measure (to only a minimal amount of accuracy), the ambient air temperature of a enclosure; not the substrate where most snakes call home.

"The heat rock thing is for sure bad. I've had snakes given to me that were burned pretty badly by them before."

Yeah, I see them come into the shop all the time with severe thermal burns...many times the ventral surface is breached, which can lead to secondary bacterial infections and/or death if veterinary care is not provided.

Many do not realize that thermal burns also causes varying degrees of fluid loss as well; hereagain requiring veterinary care.

...shall we now discuss the "Geeze...I didn't know a mouse/rat could chew up my snake so bad."-type of owners?

Reitz

04-24-2003, 02:09 AM

This is one of those "Gee, I had no idea a rat could chew up a snake so bad" questions. When I was much younger I kept a red-tail boa. I watched it hatch when I was 11, they held it for me for a year, handled it every day, then at 12 I bought it. I had it for over 8 years, I guess. A local breeder really liked his colors and I was moving so I sold him :(

At any rate, I never once fed it anything that didn't move. I was told (and back then I believed what I was told!) that they wouldn't eat anything that didn't move. I made sure to always watch him eat, and I never had a problem. I also kept him thin (healthy, but not fat), and as such fed him small prey. For example, when he was 9 ft. I fed him two small rats a week instead of a chicken, bunny, or large rat. I never once had a problem with the prey attacking him, and he always took the food within the first 60 sec. of it hitting the cage floor. I know that herp keepers know better now, but it seems to me that he liked the situation and could handle himself just fine.

So I guess my question is, is live prey always a no no? (not that it matters, I'm not much interested in herps)

Chris

Bry

04-24-2003, 03:01 AM

It's 4am, and I don't really feel like stepping up on my soapbox. But in a nutshell, feeding live is a big no-no. Of course, there are some rare cases where snakes just will not accept anything else. Snakes in the wild will eat carrion just as well as live ones they find. Mice/rats can do some pretty horrible things to a snake, a well-placed bite can kill a snake quickly before you have anything to do about it. Here's a link to my post on the last page on what can happen to a snake.

What a mouse/rat can do to your snake (http://www.arachnopets.com/arachnoboards/showthread.php?s=&postid=72503#post72503)

Bry

Deathreaver

04-24-2003, 09:57 AM

I knew that live food could hurt or even kill snakes, but I was thinking like Reitz, "Is live prey always a no no?" I normally feed my snakes pinkys (though I've only had them for a few days), but the other day I asked pategirl the same question, Geez I'm glad I didn't get any ideas. Thanks ya'll for your help....

Baphomet

04-25-2003, 02:20 AM

I knew that live food could hurt or even kill snakes, but I was thinking like Reitz, "Is live prey always a no no?"

It all depends. If you are talking about pinkies, fuzzy's, or even weaned, then live is fine. It is when you start getting into the hoppers and larger that one has to be extremely careful. A medium-sized mouse can do a lot of damage, and rats even more so.

In the case of larger Boids where large/jumbo rats and rabbits are concerned, you are definately tempting fate if you throw those in while still alive. They should, at the very least, be "stunned" before feeding to a snake.

A rodent will, by design, bite, chew, scratch, whatever it takes to try and escape when it is being constricted by a snake. These injuries can be quite severe. Let a food item like that loose when a snake isn't interested in feeding, and it will turn the tables on the hunted in a heartbeat.

I do admit, it is interesting to see a large food item taken while still alive, but I would strongly suggest switching over to frozen/freshly killed when the food item is mature/large enough to defend itself.

Bry

04-25-2003, 03:46 AM

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Pinkies and fuzzies are no big deal. Anything larger that has opened its eyes and developed teeth is risky at best. In the link I posted above, I talked about a certain Dumeril's boa that refused to eat anything but live rat pups. What concerns me is when she gets larger, she's going to be in greater danger with the live adult rats. Not to mention that she doesn't really seem to know how to wrap a rat correctly without human assistance.

Bry