L.bishopi - Red hot love!

[buthus]

I have tons of pics of failed attempts and male maturity tests that I was planning on posting...just for informational value. But, that was before last night...when things all finally came together.
A bit back, this and another male molted (to my surprise) into nice looking boyz, but before doing so, they showed little or NO sign of being males. The males that I was able to ID early ..all died. I honestly thought I was maleless and my plan to breed a couple ready n' willing adult females was dead in the water. So for the last few weeks or so I have been keeping quiet ...and trying to be as optimistic as possible. The males molted into what looked like maturity and I started testing them to see if they were ready...but no go. Then this one molted again a few days ago ...into the lankiest pretty boy I have seen! Fantastic looking male and surprisingly large ...and suddenly there was NO doubt that he was mature. I am often fooled (esp with the species I have no former experience with) by immature males, thinking they are ready, but once they actually hit maturity I am never fooled... there is just something obvious about mature males ...the way they stretch out in their web, their antsyness and almost suicidal attempts to get out of their cups, the shape of their abdomens and limb vs body proportions ...etc. This one was going to mate ...I could feel it! {D

Mate he did...
introduction was rough though... she chased him right out of the enclosure several times ...and I mean balls out run for your dear life kind of attacks. :D
He wasnt big into communication ... he mostly just wanted to mess up her webbing. Each approach was seemingly blind as far as the female was concerned ...and dangerous at that. But, eventually after many approach attempts, she finally let him caress her into a calm trance.
He actually was able to insert three times, but even though I managed to snap off around 6 gigs(!) worth of pics, I somehow missed the first two pull-outs. But, I recovered via another monster drink (5:00AM by this time) and got some fairly decent shots during the final round. After which, she proceeded to chase him (relentlessly) around the enclosure and most likely would have made him a tasty meal if it wasnt for giant mammel fingers intervening into the domestic squabble. :D

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_03.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_04.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_05.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_06.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_07.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_08.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_09.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_00.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_03.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_04.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2_05.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_03.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_04.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_05.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_06.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB1_mate_plp2-clsup_07.jpg


So... does this mean that I can join the big boys n'girls widow club now? :? :D

[bistrobob85]

How did you take so many detailed pics in a single mating?!?! I'm VERY impressed, thats CRAZY!!!!

phil.

[Mechanical-Mind]

Yeah what the hell?! Those last few shots belong in a damn text book Steven. Well done!

-Matt

[buthus]

How did you take so many detailed pics in a single mating?!?! I'm VERY impressed, thats CRAZY!!!!

phil.
Looking at my pics... first was taken at around 3:30 am and the last was actually around 4:45 AM. I have a 4gig card, a happy hair-trigger finger, 4 pak of energy drinks, some horny spiders and no one around (awake) to break my concentration. :D ;) I havent been taking this kind of time with other pairings lately, but this specie is ...special. ;)

BTW...just wanted to add...
To the person who had enough confidence in me to give me a crack at this VERY hard to get and truely special specie ...I cant thank you enough. Whatever I have that you desire ...Mi Casa es su Casa man. ;)

[RodG]

Outstanding photos as always:worship: Congratulations on this Latro project:clap: Please keep us informed!!!

[Rizzolo]

Unbelievable! Those are incredible pictures - definitely textbook material!

BTW - i still have a couple of mature bishopi males, if you are looking for some. they have been around "on ice" for a while. i mated my female and everything seemed to go okay, but no sacs! Now, on subsequent introductions, i don't see any mating. Frustrating! Maybe she is holding back on producing a sac, until the conditions are right?

Can widows hold off on producing egg sacs after mating, waiting for the correct environmental conditions? Makes sense to me. Does anyone out there have any direct experience regarding how long they can hold off?

I hope you get some egg sacs soon buthus. i know you will post pics of it. When do you sleep?

[KUJordan]

To the person...


Just knowing these beauties will be in the hobby from now on (hopefully) is the most satisfying thing we had ever hoped for. It's really been awesome seeing you, Tom, Matt, AND Brian all successfully mating these. Rizzolo- you'll get it worked out as well I'm sure. Tis a beautiful spider and hopefully many more people will be able to enjoy the most beautiful American Latro.

[Rizzolo]

What camera and lense are you using, buthus? Every time i look at that sequence of pics, i am impressed all over again. the lighting is good, the focus is perfect, the detail is crystal clear, the depth of field is good (for a macro), and of course the RAW subject matter is beyond belief. Thanks!

[strat321]

I've had 3 egg sacs from a black widow over the course of a year. No male in sight. So... maybe.

[KUJordan]

it's crazy to see the color variation in bishopi even! yours in this thread has such a dark abdomen! a few of mine have crazy pink abdomens like the one i bred tonight. they are all awesome.

[buthus]

BTW - i still have a couple of mature bishopi males, if you are looking for some. they have been around "on ice" for a while. i mated my female and everything seemed to go okay, but no sacs! Now, on subsequent introductions, i don't see any mating. Frustrating! Maybe she is holding back on producing a sac, until the conditions are right?

Can widows hold off on producing egg sacs after mating, waiting for the correct environmental conditions? Makes sense to me. Does anyone out there have any direct experience regarding how long they can hold off?

First thing first...
Brian needs some mature males NOW. If you have some and can't use them, then there is (most likely) no better place for them to go. ;) ;)
I have 3 males (I confirmed another after molt a few days ago...and today Im happy to say...no doubts now) One is mated and probably is ok to do so again (pondering using him again with other ready female), one has been sitting on what looks like one more molt away FOEVER now and the "new" one has just barreled through three molts but I am fairly certain he has another or two to go. I doubt any of the female from the same line as the males are going to catch up in time...so im trying to figure out how best to put these males to use.

Can they "hold-off" on producing sacs? I think their bodies do yes. Example..I just took in a hesp that a bud pointed out to me at his studio... it was cold and has been below freezing. The thing balled up and i was able to just pic it up and put it in a film canister ...patheticly cold. I put it in a jar, let it web up a bit for a night and fed it a big meal worm. She ate for a half day and then suddenly stopped to make a sac. I think of it like having a bowl movement (:D ) ...ya dont need to go, but once you get warmed up and have a cup of joe, suddenly your runnin' for the john. :D The question is how the more subtle enviromental changes (and other factors) play into the females that are already comfy. ?? Im having this problem with my Laos and am now ready to try some more drastic stimulation.

What camera and lense are you using, buthus? Every time i look at that sequence of pics, i am impressed all over again. the lighting is good, the focus is perfect, the detail is crystal clear, the depth of field is good (for a macro), and of course the RAW subject matter is beyond belief.
Cannon 20D, sigma 105mm macro lens and a really shtty lighting set up. To be honest with you, Im happy with some of the photos I get out of the many i take...considering my fumbling knowledge of these digital cameras (and macro photography in general) but compared to shots such as what glen southern(where is glen anyway??) and that other member (forget his name at the moment ...shooting all those amazing shots of those imports) are able to take, mine are halfway there ...at best. ;) I want to invest in a proper flash setup and set up my umbrellas for background light ...and maybe go for an even better lens (i want the abilty to get closer in! ...eyes, hairs, etc..) Im (starting) to get to know this camera and the lens, but I need tons more light. I'd be happy if I could get my ISO down to 400 (even 800 would be a drastic improvement), keep my fstop at (at least) 8 or better and speed at 160 (still will show(blur) a bit of very rapid movement which is good in moderation, but will otherwise capture nice clear stills even when the spider is moving around) ...anyway, no way around it...comes down to more light.

it's crazy to see the color variation in bishopi even! yours in this thread has such a dark abdomen! a few of mine have crazy pink abdomens like the one i bred tonight. they are all awesome.
Im curious about how much color change some of these oddballs go through throughout life. The light ones you have... did they molt into the light color or could you see a difference when they were juvs?
My geos really cemented in my conclusion that color variants are not always a permanent thing. A couple of my geos which were the typical "silver morphs" are now rich chocolate brown ...they look like yummy creamy milkduds. And I must add that this change DID NOT happen via molt. They were almost pallidus light well after adulthood and after a BUNCH of sacs.


Anyway...some more pics.
First some that leed up to the mating.
The above female's finale molt ...a few hrs after, give or take. (her eighteenth b-day, so to speak)
http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1-01_fnlmolt_1-11-07_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1-01_fnlmolt_1-11-07_02.jpg

Powerfeed in her temporary quarters.
http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1_feed_jarshots_00.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1_feed_jarshots_01.jpg

No, dont put me in there with her ...im not ready!
http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_mB_hangin-on.jpg

Trying to get these males to molt, The closer they got, the more i needed to manipulate their feeding,
http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_mB1_hndfeed_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_mB2_hndfeed_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_mB2_hndfeed_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_mB3_hndfeed_01.jpg

Her sister and next in line...
http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2_premate_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2_premate_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2_premate_03.jpg

[Rizzolo]

buthus - you said that "Brain needs some mature males NOW." i am not sure who you are speaking of. i am not familiar enough with the latro nuts yet to know everyone's names. i am happy to ship them off, have at least two that i can ship, maybe 3.

i think i am better off waiting to try further mating attempts with my female. i will wait until i am sure that the babe is mature, and try getting some non-sibling males. so, actually, i can probably ship 4. they have been around for about 6 weeks maybe (losing track of time) since their last molt and will not eat, so i have no idea how they will do, but they seem vital enough still.

anyway if you can give me Brain's (Brian's) member name, i can PM him and make an arrangement, or you can have him PM me. i will ship with no charge. i will be in his position soon enough. i hope it works!

thanks for the reply. can't wait till i have some camera equipment. all my disposeable money goes into my mustang. :8o

[buthus]

Did I type "brain" :?
...ha ..i did. :D :D
sorry bout that.
BrianS ...from here and VL. ;)

mustang. ...yeah, but what year?

[Rizzolo]

the mustang is pretty fun -this is really threadjacking- but is a track-only car. i have to get my butt in gear to finish up my latest project (been a while on jacks). i drive mostly with the NorCal Shelby Club (nope, not a shelby), open track - to old to race. its a gas - need to get back to the track.

so, BrianS. i will contact him. i should unload these bishopi guys ASAP. thanks for the tip.

good luck on your projects!

[buthus]

the mustang is pretty fun -this is really threadjacking- but is a track-only car. i have to get my butt in gear to finish up my latest project (been a while on jacks). i drive mostly with the NorCal Shelby Club (nope, not a shelby), open track - to old to race. its a gas - need to get back to the track.

so, BrianS. i will contact him. i should unload these bishopi guys ASAP. thanks for the tip.

good luck on your projects!

Thats cool then. I was going to get my big opinionated mouth in trouble if you came back saying you were throwing cash into one of those recent models! :p ;)

[Rizzolo]

Thats cool then. I was going to get my big opinionated mouth in trouble if you came back saying you were throwing cash into one of those recent models! :p ;)

can't say i wouldn't love to thrash one at the track, but i'm with you. the consensus is that the recent mustangs (shelbys, Gt500s) are way too heavy, make all kinds of wrong engineering choices, and don't measure up to the BrandXers. too sad! they are getting top dollar for them though - marketing!

[buthus]

Another mating...

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate-male_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate-male_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_02.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_03.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_04.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_05.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_06.jpg

So far not a single sac from the first pairing. Starting to wonder... :unsure:

[Katronmaster]

Forgive me for sounding utterly clueless, but I figured there was no better time to ask. How exactly does true spider mating work? I feel so foolish for asking this, but I've found utterly no details on it anywhere. :8o

[buthus]

Forgive me for sounding utterly clueless, but I figured there was no better time to ask. How exactly does true spider mating work? I feel so foolish for asking this, but I've found utterly no details on it anywhere. :8o

For widows.. the really, really short version...
Shorty after reaching maturity, the male transfers his sperm deposit from his genitalia into his palps ...I have read this is done via a siphoning action.
When the male finds a females web, he starts a series of "maneuvers" to render the female "passive" and get her into a trance. He then inserts his palps(embolus) one at a time into the females bursa and inseminates her. This can take only seconds, but I have observed mostly longer insertions ...a few minutes per palp ..at least.
When he has finished or when she has had enough.. he quickly runs away to avoid becoming her aftersex snack. :D Some species will mate more than once with the same male and/or another male, but the female only needs to mate once to produce a lifetime of young.

[KUJordan]

To add to what Buthus said, some species of widows actually have to partake in sexual cannibalism for successful mating- such as L. hasselti. The male climbs onto the vent of the female and after inserting his emboi, the female uses her legs and flips him over (back flip style) so that his abdomen is right in front of her mouth. She then eats him while he is inserting his sperm. It is speculation but the most probable reason for this required cannibalism and flipping of the male is that perhaps L. hasselti emboli are curved to where only that last back flip of the male provides enough torque to fully isnert them far enough into the female for successful insemination. This practice is also very common in Argiope sp.

[Katronmaster]

Thank you both! What mainly had me confused were the long 'corkscrew' shaped things. So I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. Thanks a bunch!

[buthus]

Suddenly both girls produced sacs ...within a day apart. The first girl took forever and the second (posted above) popped one out right away. Go figure. Not sure what if anything stimulated both to do so at the same time. I have to believe that it was just luck I guess. :unsure: :Dance:

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A1--mB_mate_sac1_01.jpg

http://moflash.net/stuff/img/spiders/bsh_A2--mB_mate_sac1_01.jpg

I may be able to squeeze another pairing (maybe two) with this generation. Wish me luck ...it will take some of that along with some tricky timing.

[Rizzolo]

congrats buthus! i sure would like to know what triggers them to make the egg sacs. the fact that both of yours produced their sacs at once, reinforces (i think) the likelihood that some environmental factor might be involved in inducing them to do it. my bishopi female waited about 6 weeks or more. i had given up hope when she finally produced a sac, and then i figured that it would be infertile, but i was wrong. i suspect that day length, temperature variations, or something else related to season change could be involved. my enclosure is temperature regulated, so temp changes seem less likely to be the primary trigger, but mine get only natural daylight, so that seems to be a likely suspect.

maybe we can trade some slings when they get older, to get some diversity in the gene pool. although i suspect that we may have related specimens already.

btw - those are some fantastic photos. you have spoiled us with the clarity and subject matter. it's a hard act to follow.

[buthus]

Thanks for the encouragement ;)

Not sure if it is an enviromental trigger ...if so I wouldnt be able to figure out what that trigger was because my room has been fairly stable of late. I did try many attempts with temp and humidity changes with the first girl but gave up and let time to its thing.
Im pondering the possibility of maturity vs "season" or some combo there of.