Really big problem, need help!

Does anyone know the level of pesticide that can affect arachnid or insect? I am talking in parts per million/billion. I have had unexplainable die offs before and even though I had not exposed any T to a pesticide we do have city mosquito sprayers. So the particles in the air might could settle in an enclosure and this settling could be arbitrary given the effect of air current. The air currents in a house change due to different causes...like just walking by the enclosure is going to cause variants in indoor air currents.

With unexplained deaths, is there anyone on the AB who can do a test for us i.e. gas spectro analysis of the Ts internals to see if indeed there was some kind of peesticide? Maybe a long shot but that sort of test would definitely tell us what, if anything, the T may have been exposed to.

Mrarachnid1st said:

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With unexplained deaths, is there anyone on the AB who can do a test for us i.e. gas spectro analysis of the Ts internals to see if indeed there was some kind of peesticide? Maybe a long shot but that sort of test would definitely tell us what, if anything, the T may have been exposed to.

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The only technique which may (and I really mean 'may') give you an answer on the volitile pesticides inside a spider is 'SIFT-MS' - Selected Ion Flow Tube Mass Spectrometry, which can detect parts per billion/trillion (in some small molecules).

You'd need to get the sample really fresh for it to work, and I really doubt it'd tell you much.

DrAce said:

It's possible that a fungus got into the sac, and just incubated in there with them... eventually breaking out and killing most of them off (and spreading to a couple of others).

What's the humidity in the room?

One of the easiest ways, I think, to prevent this is to invest in a good HEPA air filter.

Unfortunately, one of the problems with having a large number of anything alive in one area is that things like this get passed on easily.

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I'm also thinking a fungus got into the sac. Tarantulas are highly susceptible to fungus and molds depending upon the humidity level they need to be kept at, it can be difficult to prevent it. My husband is currently doing research on different fungus and molds, and how they affect tarantulas and scorpions. What he is finding is scary-- how if it gets into their book lungs, it can incubate there and grow inside the tarantula. The tarantula acts like nothing is wrong and then 'poof' one day it is dead. Depending upon the fungus or mold, it can affect their nervous system too.

A top notch HEPA filter is a good start. Also inoculating the substrate against molds etc. (this is one of the things my husband is working on).

Anyway, it's just a thought.

So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?

Talkenlate04 said:

So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?

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It does take time to build up the effects, and it can hang around a long time. I do not understand the particulars about it, my husband could explain it better. Right now he is sick, but I've mentioned this thread to him, and he is interested in reading it.

Talkenlate04 said:

So with those guys they were dumped from the sac at day 10 as eggs. They molted in a sterile coffee filter setup through all the stages till I took them out at feeding slings.
Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?

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Yes, although, without wanting to insult, what do you mean by 'sterile'?

Did you actually do this is a biological hood? Were all liquids passed through a 20 um filter to ensure no bacteria and fungi were present?

Realistically, they probably weren't sterile.

DrAce said:

Yes, although, without wanting to insult, what do you mean by 'sterile'?

Did you actually do this is a biological hood? Were all liquids passed through a 20 um filter to ensure no bacteria and fungi were present?

Realistically, they probably weren't sterile.

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That was not my point. I don't live in a sterile environment. I did start with sterile products, and that was my point. You ignored my questions though.

Would fungus in a sac hang around that long? Does it take time to build up its effects?

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What I am asking is why if there was a killer bacteria with the eggs, did it take 5 weeks after separating and 150 + days total to show up and kill them? And why did it only kill some? They were in very close quarters, so you'd think they would all be having issues. And why did the other 4 sacs incubating in the same setup with this sac show no problems? Can it be that localized of a problem?

I am only asking because it seems so weird to me that one sling laying on another can die, but the one being laid on is just fine. I don't know much of anything about how things like this move and spread. Just asking for more clarification I guess.

Talkenlate04 said:

That was not my point. I don't live in a sterile environment. I did start with sterile products, and that was my point. You ignored my questions though.
...

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Well, what I was saying is that although they started as sterile, it's a pointless thing when you open the packet in an unsterile environment. While they were sterile - they weren't when the eggs got to them.

Talkenlate04 said:

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What I am asking is why if there was a killer bacteria with the eggs, did it take 5 weeks after separating and 150 + days total to show up and kill them? And why did it only kill some? They were in very close quarters, so you'd think they would all be having issues. And why did the other 4 sacs incubating in the same setup with this sac show no problems? Can it be that localized of a problem?

I am only asking because it seems so weird to me that one sling laying on another can die, but the one being laid on is just fine. I don't know much of anything about how things like this move and spread. Just asking for more clarification I guess.

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In short, yes. Some fungi (particularly) can take weeks to do the deed. Also, it's quite possible for an infection to present like this, since spiders are not completely defenceless when it comes to infections, and perhaps some of the spiderlings were 'attacked' before they really had much of a defence, while the others built up an immunity before the infection got too bad.

Or maybe some didn't get much of an immune system like the others.

Who knows. They are not all clones... there is genetic diversity in there, so there's no reason to believe that they all will behave the same.

So then I gather there is not much I can do to stop something like this from happening again.
Well I guess I will just keep things as clean as I can and hope.

Talkenlate04 said:

So then I gather there is not much I can do to stop something like this from happening again.
Well I guess I will just keep things as clean as I can and hope.

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Unfortunately, probably not. A HEPA filter would help prevent it spreading after an outbreak - but not guarantee prevention.

This is all assuming that it's an infection of some type.

Well this is interesting. I found these outside my patio on the other side of the apt. They have been in the same spot for a few hours just running into each other and twitching. My complex maintains they have not sprayed anything. But you will notice in the video the ants rarely leave the view frame. They just twitch, fight and wander in small circles aimlessly. I think my neighbors sprayed something because ants are falling off their patio onto the ground in various states of wellness. :wall:

Welp, at least now you know. I mean, you can't ever know for 100% certain, but if I was a betting girl...

Ya true. Knowing is better.

Only thing is I am still trying to wrap my mind around how it went from the patio, through the sliding glass doors, through the living room, through the dining room, and through the spider room door, with enough power to do what it did. The localization of the problem is interesting too.

All I know is if that is what caused it, that is some powerful evil stuff.

Wow, that's pretty crazy. For all you know, though, your neighbors could have gone wild with what ever they sprayed... they could have sprayed hallways, front doors, all around the outside of their apartment... if they're having a "pest problem" with those ants they could very easily gone a little overboard in killing them off.

Do you know them well enough to ask if they sprayed something and what it was? ...and where it was. They should know not to do that again because it made your pets sick.

Um... do you ever see ants in your apartment?

No ants here. This is the first time I have seen them. I think they are in the siding up high. That is not really to normal for them, but stranger things have happened. I checked all over and the source is somewhere above me.

They don't exactly speak english that well so I am not to sure I am going to be able to get much out of them. But I guess I can try.

Good luck Ryan... It seems like you are on a wild goose chase right now

Possibly came in on clothes, etc

If neighbors are spraying stuff, it likely becomes airborne. Especially since people tend to go overboard when they spray for some sort of 'pest' bug, and then they open windows to get rid of the smell of the spray - letting it out. If you were walking outside the building at the time (to or from car, etc), its possible some residual amount got on your clothes, etc.

Then, when you worked with your T's, some of that may have ended up getting on some. Maybe you even touched a bit of your clothing (pushed a sleeve up or down, had an itch, etc) and got it on your fingers, and then touched something in the enclosure. Even if you had changed clothes, if you touched anything that had it on it, and then touched the new clothes, it could transfer, or stay on your fingers.

But it might only have affected some because there was only a residual amount and wasn't on your hands for all of the time, maybe came off on some, etc. And there are likely going to be some genetic variation, even within a sac, where some individuals are more susceptible to such things than others. And with the other couple T's who got sick they may have had a genetic predisposition to a weakness to that. The rest of them may be more resistant, and may have had less exposure..

All complete hypothesizing, but its a possibility, especially since it seems that you did have neighbors using some sort of bug poison.

No matter what the cause, its good to hear that there haven't been any new cases recently, hopefully everyone else continues to do well! And hopefully the neighbors took care of their problem so that they don't feel any need to spray anything again in the future...

All these guys were dead in the same spot this morning.


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Ryan,

You are dealing with an natural organic vapor compound from the poison being used. There is nothing you can do except relocate them which is a real pain!

Allot poisons of out there contain pyrethrins which attack the central nervous systems of insects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotoxin

It could be in a can of a flea bomb or fogger deviuce used to eradicate roaches, crickets, fleas, ticks or other critters people deem a danger or nusiance.

"In a study of rats exposed to these pyrethrins, the rats had difficulty or rapid breathing, sprawling of limbs, tremors, twitching and exhaustion."
found here: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/pyrethrins.pdf

This is, though tragic, fascinating... Can anyone point me to some background info?