Molting painful?

Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.

this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react.
i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.

on bumblebees flying:
science HAS finally figured out how they fly. happened in the last couple years, iirc. humans fly using only one principle... it's the sort of negative pressure from the flow of air over a strangely shaped surface that results in the air flowing er... faster on the bottom and slower on top making lift. bugs fly using three principles, two of which i believe only work efficiently on smaller scale stuff. something about vortices. it's quite fascinating but i am sunburned and drinking now and on vacation and can't quite remember =P

on tarantula's feeling pain when they molt... HEHEHEHEHE.

jr47 said:

Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.

this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react.
i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.

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I get what you are saying........... Narrow minded people drive me nuts to. But in this matter I guess I have my thoughts......

me thinks this SUBJECT has run its course and i think for everyones SANITY lets STOP this NOW === phil

jr47 said:

Ok...maybe I would (My not self-proclaimed title should be a testament to that), but I wouldn't be eating if I were cut in half.

this is what the train story has to do with it. you cant possibly know just how you would react.
i honestly think you are correct and have done alot more research than i. i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong. which im not saying that is your standpoint. but alot do feel that way and i consider that to be narrow minded. there are always possibilities that we are completely wrong even if all the facts says we are right. and that is after all my only point.

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That's something different...that's traumatic shock.

Shock is a condition that occurs after damage to the body or heavy blood loss where the body shunts blood to only the most vital organs to keep things going.

Also, the lack of pain could have been caused by the brain being shut down.

If you look at the vertebrate brain, there are more than a handful of places that are involved with feeling pain. These include the frontal lobe, the amygdala, the medulla...etc.

We can look at these structures and see if animals feel similar sensations much the same way we know some new world primates are still color blind because they lack certian types of opsin in their retina. If an animal has a similar or analagous structure, then chances are they feel something similar to what we do.

We look at the invertebrate brain and we see that it's only a loose cluster of ganglion and we can tell that they can't process any sort of similar sensation the same way we do.

The brain of many invertebrates is barely even cephalized. If you take a cockroach and teach it to raise it's leg in reaction to an electric shock, after decapitation the control group (the group not taught this behaivior) will not raise it's leg and the experimental group will.

Basically, they store 'memories' in the ganglion that controls that part of the body.

Because they can't process sensations the same way we do, it's safe to say that the equivalent of pain that they feel is much simpler than the pain we feel and not at all similar.

To test this hypothesis, we can look at invertebrates with various injuries.

1.) An invertebrate with a broken tarsi will continue to walk on it, something I was not able to accomplish after I broke my leg after the shock wore off.

2.) An invertebrate will amputate it's own limbs for reasons much more minor than we do, which would not happen if the critter felt pain the same way we do.

etc, etc, etc. It's obvious that even the most horrific injuries don't phase bugs.

Now under certian circumstances humans won't feel pain, however this is only when injuries are so severe they are life threatening.

jr47 said:

i just have a big problem when people are so set on things that they cant admit they could be wrong.

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I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong. I challenge people to prove me wrong and I've been proven wrong many times over...

...however, the original question was asking for an objective, analytical empirical analysis which is exactly what I've done here.

If you want to prove me wrong, then show me proof from a reliable source.

For reasons I've outlined above, proof that inverts could feel pain would rewrite thousands of pages of college textbooks and the assertion they can feel sensation exactly the same way higher animals do needs to be backed up with logic based on hard facts and empirical evidence.

Good post above, Cheshire...:clap: I concur with you pretty much all the way, though of course this is not any sort of advocation for the truth of your various points - I believe they are that in themselves.

But I still think it should be said that until we are 100% sure that these animals DON'T feel pain in any sort of comparable-to-us way, or even if it IS 100% likely that they don't, we should STILL look after our animals to the high standards we try and maintain anyway.

I think out of basic respect for another life that we have chosen to capture and to a (rather large) extent 'control', we owe it to that animal to do our level best to make its existence as comfortable as possible. Treating animals like this is of course endlessly good for the human soul as well, so its goodness all round to always do your best for 'em, I guess...

Which means that if you can agree with that, this whole thread, while very interesting, and informative, shouldn't alter the way we treat our animals at all, but help us better understand our spider's responses to us and their environments... what do you think ?

For example, I might be slightly more willing to go in and pull a spider's leg off if I can see there is absolutely no other way to save it. Not something I'd ever want to do, or a situation in which I'd like to find myself, but the evidence, and thought processes here certainly make some difficult decisions a wee bit easier, and us all a fair bit wiser, I would have thought.

Cerbera said:

Good post above, Cheshire...:clap: I concur with you pretty much all the way, though of course this is not any sort of advocation for the truth of your various points - I believe they are that in themselves.

But I still think it should be said that until we are 100% sure that these animals DON'T feel pain in any sort of comparable-to-us way, or even if it IS 100% likely that they don't, we should STILL look after our animals to the high standards we try and maintain anyway.

I think out of basic respect for another life that we have chosen to capture and to a (rather large) extent 'control', we owe it to that animal to do our level best to make its existence as comfortable as possible. Treating animals like this is of course endlessly good for the human soul as well, so its goodness all round to always do your best for 'em, I guess...

Which means that if you can agree with that, this whole thread, while very interesting, and informative, shouldn't alter the way we treat our animals at all, but help us better understand our spider's responses to us and their environments... what do you think ?

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I agree with you wholeheartedly...just because they can't feel pain doesn't mean we should torture them.

Ethically, yes. They are our pets or specimens and no matter what your motivation for keeping them, you should keep them to the highest standards as humanly possible.

However, you should also realize that these animals are very different from humans and have very different social needs as well as physiological layouts and this plays a part in proper captive care.

For example, ampglypids are very prone to stress. The more they're handled, the sooner they die (based upon posts from Wade that I've read) and from this example it's easy to see where anthromorphising could actually be hazardous to your pet's health. Some bugs you can quite literally cuddle to death.

I prefer to view them as they are...spectacular marvels of evolution that have persevered through millions of years of life here on this little blue planet .

I'm not trying to say that since they don't feel pain, it's OK to light their legs on fire...but their physiology also needs to be understood by keepers.

The example you listed above (especially true for an injured male in a breeding attempt) is a great reason why invertebrate physiology needs to be understood by keepers even for something as seemingly trivial as this.

Paracelsus taught his students that dogs did not feel pain like humans and disembowelled a tied down and screaming dog to prove his point.

I think if it lives it can feel pain.

Annie3Ponies said:

I think if it lives it can feel pain.

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Again...this is based upon what?

400 year old research?

We didn't even know about bacteria in 1493, so anything done by Paracelsus is completely irrelevant in this conversation.

It's safe to say that every week that passes, we learn more about the human brain than we the entirety of what we knew in 1493.

If we were arguing about poriferans or cnidarians, this would be a much shorter post.

There have been tremendous advances in neuroscience since then. MRIs and PET scans that allow us to see exactly what is going on in the brain and by sticking pins and needles in the feet of poorly paid college students and even lesser paid terminally ill patients (and just plain old injury victims who are having a bad day and on top of it...aren't paid for their suffering), we can see what sections of the brain burst alive in reaction to any sort of stimulus.

By dissecting the encephalon of corpses, we can see how our brain is laid out, how the nerves are connected and exactly how those sections are set up.

The same goes for invertebrates to a certian extent. I've never put a tarantula through an MRI machine, but I can compare their loose clusters of ganglion to the tightly wound definitely seperate sections of the human brains and other vertebrate brains.

Hell...we know that the brain is the pretty much the epicenter of all activity in the body instead of the heart.

Back then in an age where the scientiffic method was just beginning to see the light of day, we knew nothing of the brain.

I'm not debating whether or not dogs can feel pain. Dogs are vertebrates and have complex brains.

I'm asking 4 questions.

1.) How is pain defined?

I am defining pain as the sensation you and I feel. As in...ouch, that hurts. The feeling you get when you burn your hand on a stove. Some sort of localized physical suffering associated with an injury or disease, or by physical discomfort.

This seems to imply a degree of complexity that I will tackle later.

2.) How is pain felt?

What I am doing in my posts is pointing out exactly how complex a feeling pain is. There are no less than 4 sections of the brain involved in processing this sensation in mamallian brains.

3.) What similar structures are in the invertebrate brain that would allow the creature to process this particular stimuli in a way similar to the definition of pain I listed above?

The vertebrate brain lacks every single one of the sections that are responsible for feeling pain in mammals, birds and any other higher life form. Therefore I can hypothesize that the sensation invertebrates feel as pain is very different than the sensation that you and I feel as pain.

Thus, vertebrates and humans would react differently when injured similarly.

4.) Are there any real life observations to support this hypothesis?

When a dog breaks or otherwise injures it's leg, the dog lifts it's leg off the ground and does not apply weight on it.

When you damage the tarsi of a roach, the roach acts as if the injury never happens.

A human will only amputate a limb if their life is in mortal danger (See Aron Ralston).

A tarantula will amputate a limb for reasons far less...if the limb is broken or otherwise doesn't work quite right.

Imagine cutting off your own broken leg out of boredom.

A willingness to amputate limbs by itself at will more than suggests that an overwhelming negative sensation is not felt by the animal combined with the effect that the animal doesn't favour the new stump.

The reaction of this mantis (which I have also observed in my own captive breeding of similar species) also supports my theory.

As JR47 pointed out earlier, there are extreme instances where vertebrates won't feel pain when faced with a massive injury due to traumatic shock, but the fact that a bug will live like this for days wheras a human will either die from this injury or feel pain (in other words, have visible symptoms such as the inability to move, favoring that area of the body (clutching stomach in an attempt to gate the pain) and not going about the normal routine for days on end) hours later (after first aid has been administered) negates this point.

So based on the reasons I've outlined above, there is no reason an invertebrate should feel pain as it is classically defined for us humans.

All of this information when taken into context pretty much proves that the sensation you and I feel and the sensation that you are anthromorphizing your animal to feel are quite different. Invertebrates simply do not have the capacity to feel any sort of localized physical suffering.

If you can find some decent proof otherwise (post anything by PETA and I will reach through the computer screen and slap you) from any sort of peer reviewed neuroscience journal or any site belonging to an instute of higher education, I'll gladly read through it.

Until then, I guess I'll have to keep spoonfeeding.

If you're actually interested in where I'm getting the information on exactly how the vertebrate and invertebrate brain works, I will happily refer you to two of my previous posts on the subject.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=846373&postcount=45
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=845968&postcount=34

Please people, bring some back-up to your posts if you want to argue that inverts feel pain.
You're welcome to your opinions, but we've gone through this so many freakin' times that arguing in this manner is like pointless.
Bring some articles, quotations, facts, or something of merit, and I'll read it.
But against these posts, I don't even want to get into this argument.

Cheshire said:

(post anything by PETA and I will reach through the computer screen and slap you)

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Amen to that

Cheshire said:

I'm not trying to say that since they don't feel pain, it's OK to light their legs on fire...

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Oh the smell of burning crickets. ..disgusting.

-Sean

I'm in a bit of an odd mood (and I apologize if I've repeated anything said), so lets go back to the original question and for arguments sake lets assume they feel pain. From an evolutionary standpoint it would not make sense for a creature to undergo pain (which I would assume would be severe since it is shedding your whole skin and gut lining.) regularly. Especially occurring more frequently during the vulnerable sling stage. Second the old exoskeleton by molting time is no longer physically attached to the t, there is a layer of fluid between it and the t (hence the need for proper hydration (have a water dish available) prior to a molt.) So it is more akin to getting out of a wet suit that a size or two too small.

A journal article dealing with invertebrates and pain (touches upon many points already mentioned).
http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/33_1_2/V33_1_2Question.shtml
Read and be enlightened.

A little for tidbit bit for folks confused on how something can react to negative stimuli without feeling pain, there is what used to be called the "hot potato reflex" (I forget the more technical/modern name) basically if you grab/touch something hot enough to burn your hand pulls away before your brain registers the sensation.

Chesh, how much free time do you have?

this is now very very DULL and REPETITIOUS :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: and move on for god sake

Thoth said:

Chesh, how much free time do you have?

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All of these posts combined took me two hours to type, proofread and revise, not counting google breaks.

With google breaks, maybe 2 hours and 20 minutes.

Cheshire said:

All of these posts combined took me two hours to type, proofread and revise, not counting google breaks.

With google breaks, maybe 2 hours and 20 minutes.

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I'm impressed. :clap: A hell of lot quicker than it would take me.

i think molting probably feels like a gigantic bowel movement.


but seriously, the reason i think it is possible that tarantulas do feel pain or something reminescent of it is that when i squeeze a docile t's leg, it totally freaks out. if i just hold the leg between 2 fingers, it just sits there. all i'm saying is i think certain things can cause build ups of pressure that might result in some sensation of pain.

smokin' boas said:

i think molting probably feels like a gigantic bowel movement.


but seriously, the reason i think it is possible that tarantulas do feel pain or something reminescent of it is that when i squeeze a docile t's leg, it totally freaks out. if i just hold the leg between 2 fingers, it just sits there. all i'm saying is i think certain things can cause build ups of pressure that might result in some sensation of pain.

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There is a difference between the pain we feel and a negative stimulus.

The type of pain that you and I feel is a complex feeling that takes sections of the brain with many times the mass (and many times the total number of cells, as well as cells of a different type that are found in tarantula brains) of the entire tarantula nervous system to feel.

A tarantula can move away from or otherwise react to something that it percieves as obviously not beneficial to it's well being, single celled organisms can do this. However we know that it can't feel actual pain as you and I feel because it simply lacks the internal structure to do so. See my definition in my previous post, as well as the definition cacoseraph dug up for how I'm defining actual pain.

this has come to a dead end and i for one will not waste my time on it any more now where did i put that book down you know its name war and peace LOL

phil jones said:

this has come to a dead end and i for one will not waste my time on it any more now where did i put that book down you know its name war and peace LOL

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The option for you to ignore this thread is perpetually there and yet you still click on the thread, find the end of it, and take the time to reply to it even though you view it as an excersize in futility.

Either add something useful or don't reply at all.

I gotta give a big thank you to Chesire for compiling all this info, and of course to the original authors. My vote is that this thread become a sticky. Its actually a really good resource. :clap:

Cheshire said:

The option for you to ignore this thread is perpetually there and yet you still click on the thread, find the end of it, and take the time to reply to it even though you view it as an excersize in futility.

Either add something useful or don't reply at all.

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yawn yawn yawn i do love a LECTURE i think i go back to sleep now