Iridopelma hirsuta, or hirsutum?

Witch name is proper for this spider ? Platnick , has them listed as hirsutum. Although many of the dealers sell them as hirsuta. :?

I think that Platnick is more competent source

It's Iridopelma hirsutum.

When it was in the Avicularia, it was Avicularia hirsuta... but it must be -um to match the gender of Iridopelma.

The need for this agreement doesn't apply if the specific epithet is a noun though... but in this case it's an adjective and must agree with the gender of the genus group.

Eric is exactly correct. Gender declination can be confusing. It all depends on how the generic name was originally used. The -a suffix in Iridopelma does imply that it is feminine, and I believe this is the source of confusion, but Iridopelma is, in fact, masculine. Thus, the specific epithet hirsutum is correct. I have found that in herpetology most generic names ending in -a are indeed feminine, but in theraphosid taxonomy there are plenty of examples of words with this suffix being used as masculine (Brachypelma, Aphonopelma)... I've always wondered why this is.

Cheers, Michael

Michael,
I believe Iridopelma is neuter, not masculine.

If it was masculine it would be "hirsutus". You have lots of examples of genera ending in -pelma (under surface (sole) of foot) (Brachypelma, Haplopelma, Stromatopelma, Iridopelma) that are all neuter.

You see common mistakes sometimes treating names of spiders in these genera with the female ending...like "Brachypelma albopilosa" or "Stromatopelma calceata" etc..

Isn't latin fun??

Right again, I stand corrected. Neuter it is. Those unjustified emendation mistakes are everywhere, but at least we know what is being spoken of, unlike common names. I think what is most important is that we don't get too picky with scientific names so more people in America embrace them. My experience is that American hobbyists are most afraid of scientific names because of pronunciation. I always tell them that we're talking about dead languages and even the scholars argue about them. It doesn't matter as long as everyone - worldwide - knows what you are saying. I used to have a big pet peeve about people calling scientific names "Latin names" since they are actually Latinized and incorporate Greek, geographical and cultural names and honorifics too. But I don't correct people anymore out of fear of turning them off from scientific names.

Cheers, Michael

I think what is most important is that we don't get too picky with scientific names so more people in America embrace them. My experience is that American hobbyists are most afraid of scientific names because of pronunciation.

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Oh I'm absolutely terrible are pronouncing scientific names!

Spelling them correctly is one thing, but when it comes to speaking them... I think we all should have a "poetic liscence"!

GoTerps said:

Oh I'm absolutely terrible are pronouncing scientific names!

Spelling them correctly is one thing, but when it comes to speaking them... I think we all should have a "poetic liscence"!

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i prefer to use my phonetic license. ha.



and YES i realize this thread is like, two years old. i don't care. i was researching something and saw the opportunity to make *me* laugh and took it.

wow, looking back two years , I almost now know what everyones talking about here.

Where and how do I learn this stuff Eric and Micheal are talking about ? Are there any articles that anybody can refer me too. Was this something I learned about in the 6th grade, but just didnt care about then?

later, Tom

Philth said:

wow, looking back two years , I almost now know what everyones talking about here.

Where and how do I learn this stuff Eric and Micheal are talking about ? Are there any articles that anybody can refer me too. Was this something I learned about in the 6th grade, but just didnt care about then?

later, Tom

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I am not sure if there are any resources that would give you a good primer on the specific topic here, that being gender declination in binomial nomenclature. There have been articles written that have commented on etymology, which is the meaning of scientific name, as well as on pronunciation, etc.

I doubt you would have touched on binomial nomenclature in 6th grade. This is the scientific name, often incorrectly referred to as the "Latin name". I wish it was something that people without a specialized biology education learned. It seems to be something that is largely misunderstood by hobbyists, as evidenced by the all too frequent capitalization of specific epithets (species names) or the inappropriate abbreviation of genus names. All most people would have likely learned in grammar school or high school would be the more broad classification of phylum, order, class, family, etc. High school biology should have got down to genus and species (binomial nomenclature). But, heh, American education... :wall:

I won't take the time for an essay here, but should it benefit anyone reading I will just point out a few basics:

Spiders are only classified to the species level; there are no valid subspecies. That means there is a genus (plural genera) name that begins with an uppercase letter and a species (plural is also species) name that begins with a lowercase letter. For example, Poecilotheria subfusca. In other words, two names, hence, the term "binomial". In higher animals (e.g., reptiles, birds, etc.), subspecies may be identified that would result in a third name; the trinomial (e.g., Lampropeltis triangulum gaigae [black milksnake].

The binomial, or scientific name, is always italicized. Back in the old days we didn't have computers and word processing software so we would underline scientific names instead. But, once again, the genus capitalized and the species never capitalized. The genus name, if repeated, may be abbreviated. For example, P. subfusca. But just by a single letter; never as two or more like the invented methods of some hobbyists I see posting about their "Av. braunshauseni". It should only be A. braunshauseni. (certainly never "A. Braunshauseni"!)

Scientific names can be derived from many sources. Often they are adjectives and are based in Latin and, to a lesser extent, Greek, but they can also be nouns, especially in the case of places (geographic names) or proper nouns called patronyms that honor an individual - often the discoverer or original collector. The genus name has gender. That is, it can be linguistically masculine, feminine or neuter. It depends on the etymology (meaning) of the word and how it is used and may be decided by the genus author in the paper that creates the new genus name. However, there is an organization called the ICZN - International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature - that rules on all of these issues. Interested readers may want to check out their website. What confuses many hobbyists, especially those who learned a little Spanish in school is the suffix -a. This implies to those with familiarity of romance languages that a name is feminine but, as in the case of Iridopelma or Brachypelma or Aphonopelma or Megaphobema or any of another long list of theraphosid genera this does not hold true. These genera are neuter and the species name must also be neuter. Hence, Iridopelma hirsutum, Brachypelma albopilosum, Aphonopelma moderatum and Megaphobema robustum. (And, just as you commonly see dealers or hobbyists mistakenly write "Iridopelma hirsuta", you even more often see the error "Brachypelma albopilosa"). In fact, although I am not going to take the time to check this, I would dare say that there are more theraphosid genera ending in -a that are neuter than feminine.

Going back to the original species of this thread, and repeating Eric's explanation, Iridopelma hirsutum is the correct spelling of this tarantula's scientific name. The etymology of the specific epithet (a fancy word for species name) may be obvious to some: the word hirsute means "hairy". So the species name is an adjective and, therefore, has gender. This species was formerly classified in the genus Avicularia, which has a feminine name. Thus, it was Avicularia hirsuta; the species name had the feminine suffix -a. But once this species, with its adjective name, was moved to the neuter genus Iridopelma the suffix had to be changed to match the gender of the genus, and it was correctly changed to have the suffix -um. Often the taxonomist is not a linguist (who could blame him or her!) and might incorrectly leave the genus name with its original declination. It is then up to the ICZN to rule on the name at a later date, hopefully correcting the situation. An example of this that springs to mind occurred in another group of animals I study - arboreal viper snakes. One species of the African bush viper genus Atheris is more often than not incorrectly referred to as Atheris squamiger. Even modern books don't do the proper research and repeat this misspelling based on gender. However, one scientist who has done a lot of work with the genus petitioned the ICZN a number of years back, correctly pointing out that the genus Atheris has a feminine name and that the specific epithet (which is an adjective) should properly be written as feminine - that is, with an -a suffix, hence, squamigera.

So, assuming that the gender declination is correct, you can tell if a genus is masculine, feminine or neuter. And if a species named by adjective is transferred to another genus, which is often the case with the very volatile taxonomy of tarantulas, the declination will change. To use two very ridiculous examples, if Megaphobema robustum was moved from its current neuter genus to a feminine genus like Poecilotheria, it would become "Poecilotheria robusta", and if Poecilotheria subfusca was moved to a masculine genus like Chilobrachys it would become "Chilobrachys subfuscus".

In closing, remember that this whole gender declination thing is limited to adjectives. Nouns, proper or otherwise, are not affected. For example, when you see the suffix -ensis, you know you are looking at a species name thats etymology is based in geography. For example, Chilobrachys assamensis is from the Assam region of India. If this species was moved to another genus, the specific epithet would stay the same regardless of whether the new genus was feminine, masculine or neuter. When you see the suffix -i, you know you are looking at a species name thats etymology is based in a patronym, or honorific, for a person. For example, Brachypelma verdezi is named for French arachnoculturist Jean-Michel Verdez. If this species was moved, the name would remain the same. (Note that there is a single -i suffix, not double ("ii" [a common mistake]). There would only be a double -ii if the person's name ended in an -i, such as in the new Avicularia species A. hirschii, named for H. hirschi. (Of course, if anyone ever names a species after me it will be "jacobii" !)

Well, that's enough of this for now.

All the best, Michael

Very imformative stuff Michael! Thanks for that. :clap:

BakuBak said:

I think that Platnick is more competent source

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:clap:

Platnick's the man.

holy old thread, batman.......

crawltech said:

holy old thread, batman.......

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An oldie but a goodie.
Intriguing, informative.

I love it when these old threads pop up, not knockin it...i also love a good read

Michael Jacobi said:

When you see the suffix -i, you know you are looking at a species name thats etymology is based in a patronym, or honorific, for a person. For example, Brachypelma verdezi is named for French arachnoculturist Jean-Michel Verdez. If this species was moved, the name would remain the same. (Note that there is a single -i suffix, not double ("ii" [a common mistake]). There would only be a double -ii if the person's name ended in an -i, such as in the new Avicularia species A. hirschii, named for H. hirschi. (Of course, if anyone ever names a species after me it will be "jacobii" !)

Well, that's enough of this for now.

All the best, Michael

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How does one explain names such as Nepenthes lowii (a tropical pitcher plant) then? N. Lowii was named after Hugh Low, not Lowi?

nhaverland413 said:

How does one explain names such as Nepenthes lowii (a tropical pitcher plant) then? N. Lowii was named after Hugh Low, not Lowi?

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Before the ICZN it was common practice to use the double i suffix with male patronyms. For example Psalmopoeus cambridgei was first spelled by Pocock as Psalmopoeus cambridgii (there's an example of another naming rule in the specific name, but that's irrelevant to your question), or Aphonopelma hentzi was described using the spelling hentzii for the specific name by Girard; then there's Avicularia holmbergi (originally spelled as holmbergii by Thorell). In the case of spiders, these endings were corrected largely in/by Normal I. Platnick's "The World Spider Catalog."

But since I know squat about botanical nomenclature, it's possible the rules for forming names are entirely different there. Edit: looks like that's right, check out Recommendation 60C.1.

I'll point out that even in Spanish, there are words that have an -a ending, and are masculine--problema is an example. I'll point out that while Brachy, Grammo, Psalmo, Pokie, Avic are all technically incorrect, they are definently more helpful than Ornamental, or Pinktoe, etc.

further resurection

I just want to further resurrect this old thread as i recently stumbled across
and old tome that was made available free on the internet, and the pdf downloaded nicely..

Clements, Frederic E..(1902?) Greek and Latin in biological nomenclature.

http://www.archive.org/details/greeklatininbiol00clemiala


It is, rather scary inside...words like 'third declension' throughout

The latin section is slightly more understandable than the greek, well slightly!

sjl197 said:

I just want to further resurrect this old thread as i recently stumbled across
and old tome that was made available free on the internet, and the pdf downloaded nicely..

Clements, Frederic E..(1902?) Greek and Latin in biological nomenclature.

http://www.archive.org/details/greeklatininbiol00clemiala


It is, rather scary inside...words like 'third declension' throughout

The latin section is slightly more understandable than the greek, well slightly!

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Thanks for that, Stuart! The document says 'December, 1902.' Here's another book I found that may prove useful with scientific names, as it also contains meanings:

Jaeger, E. C. 1960. The biologist's handbook of pronunciations. Illustrations by Morris Van Dame and the author. Springfield, Illinois, Charles C. Thomas, 317 pp.

http://www.biodiversityheritagelibrary.org/bibliography/10236