Searching for a particular scorp

EightLeggedFrea

Arachnoangel
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Dec 18, 2007
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818
Can anyone think of any interesing scorp that can live a 2.5 gal enclosure. My top choices so far are P. liosoma, S. mesaensis, B. jacksoni, and maybe C. vittatus or gracilis. In the latter two cases I would house multiple ones (no more than two jacksoni together, tho). What I'm looking for is something that will live a considerable time. I hear jacksoni can live around 5-6 years. Any other suggesstions. BTW I do plan to get an H. arizonensis but they require larger cages and, from what I've heard, aren't communal (or some sources claim such).

Oh and please don't mention any Androctonus sp. or Leiurus quin, or Tityus or anything that can kill you with a single whip of the tail. There's no way my mom would let me keep one of those even though it wouldn't be all that hard to do so.
 

jmb

Arachnosquire
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Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
57
2.5G Tanks? I'm drowning in them!

Can anyone think of any interesing scorp that can live a 2.5 gal enclosure.
Hah! That sounds like *my* initial requirement: a 2 or 5.5G tank or tanks which I could easily keep on the desk between my array of monitors so I'd have something interesting to watch during dull working moments.

-I started with one (1) Centruroides sculpturatus;
-I acquired (IIRC) a dozen more, or so....

...And the rest is, as they say, history. And, coincidentally enough, just like with Crack or Heroin, the first one -- at least for me -- was free :)

My top choices so far are P. liosoma
That's not a bad choice, BTW. One of the series of pics I'd posted some time back was of the 5G enclosure on the other side of my desk with one of those in it; while they're obligate burrowers, they're bold enough to be out & cooking around the tank, even (once settled) during daylight hours, IME. Note that if you put in one too many crickets/whatever, they'll eat their fill and -- the moment the extraneous food supply irritates them in any way -- they just kill it & leave it there, not unlike other aggressive species are prone to do, which means you get to fish it out, preferably with VERY long tongs/tweezers, naturally.

S. mesaensis
Kept three separate 2.5G enclosures of those on the same desk (same place on the desk, different time). They, too are brazen enough to venture forth, though not so much as Parabuthus & Androctonus spp. Note that they'll pinch before bothering to sting, but a good pinch from an adult *CAN* draw blood, fwiw (and it does hurt a wee bit). I seldom saw them bother stinging prey, even, as they have muscular enough claws to simply crush it to death whilst eating.

B. jacksoni
I know a lot of ppl who really like Babycurus, and I don't know why I haven't kept them in quantities; I suppose they just never struck a chord with me- but to each their own.

and maybe C. vittatus or gracilis. In the latter two cases I would house multiple ones
I can say from experience in keeping colonies of those and other Centruroides that one needs a larger number of the aforementioned species in a given enclosure before you'll see as much activity as you would with C. sculpturatus: IOW, a dozen AZ barks in a circa 2G enclosure, provided with adequate detritus for feeding/dancing/interacting & otherwise making merry will generally have more visible/daytime activity than keeping the same number of the Texan or Floridian variants -- even keeping 18 or so of them in the same size area, same layout etcetera, you'll see notably less activity (at least for the first generation, IME); I would tentatively assume this has to do with their being less "hot", and therefore, more concerned about possible predation, than their Arizonan cousins, who definitely appear to get a 'Gangland' mentality once in sufficient numbers.

Oh, and as for 'heat' goes, let me tell you I'd FAR prefer getting tagged by the AZ bark (C. sculpturatus) than the Texan Striped Scorpion (C. vittatus). AZ Barks, despite a study I came across which demonstrated morphologically identical venom production facilities [tm] with C. vittatus, have an Old-World-Scorpion-style excitatory neurotoxin, which is, IMNSHO, far more endurable than being injected with a broad variety of pain-causative agents (serotonin, phospholipase A/B and a load of others) which, delivered from a captive vittatus who has plenty of food & water & no other predators upon which to waste venom, are all too happy to share what they've produced in your care -- with you -- if the opportunity arises. Now *that's* Entertai---Ehr, I mean, Incapacitation. Owtch.

In short, C. gracilis does sting a wee bit, C. sculpturatus can make life suck for a while, but C. vittatus can put a dent in your lifestyle as you are temporarily down an arm. If you think I'm a weenie for pain, I can honestly say I've had more than one bone broken (though not all set) sans anaesthetic, so I know what my pain threshold is, including being able to tolerate (minor) surgery sans any anaesthetics, so believe me when I say it's like dipping your arm in gasoline and having an ill-advised cigarette. No Fun.


What I'm looking for is something that will live a considerable time. I hear jacksoni can live around 5-6 years.
That's about the span of Centruroides native to N. America, as well.

Any other suggesstions.
Despite what you say below, if you're considering ANYTHING in Parabuthus, I don't think you need the fear you associate with Androctonus -- all BS aside (and yes, I *know* what the name means, thanks -- I even still remember some of my Attic Greek, and I can still do the declensions of the Latin word for "toilet", so there), LD50's aside (which are, IMNSHO, except insofar as they apply to the species they're conducted on, and voluntary human LD50 studies are neither common nor without legal charges, last I heard) the fact is, of ALL the scorpions available in the trade (and even those not) there isn't anything they can do to you that a healthy, non-allergic, middle-aged (or younger/healtier) person can't be treated for, successfully, if within a few hours of a hospital. Even sans scorpion-specific antivenom, what's going to happen? Cardiac arrest (possible though unlikely -- and treatable, if unpleasant, in the hospitals in the US/UK/AU)? Complete nervous system respiratory failure? Life support, artificial respiration, intubation, take your pick (I know that last doesn't quite belong) -- my point is that driving a car while sleep-deprived poses a greater threat, and one with a much greater chance of lethality.

[N.B.: The above is true provided that A) you aren't fatally allergic to arachnids, which, strangely enough, it appears the majority of the population is less so than to hymenopterans, with bees killing a few thousand a year in the US alone, and B) that you aren't tagged by H. lepturus, which is the only scorpion of which I'm aware that can actually tag your toe like in the movies, or close enough -- the only way to acquire one, however, is to take a trip over to the Mid-East, and your best chance of finding one is in, naturally, Iraq. Needless to say, for a number of reasons, they do NOT make it to the pet-trade, as the US .Mil is unwilling to share specimens with Joe Civilian, and they look NOTHING like other species native to the area, e.g., Androctonus amourexi.]

Also note that I'm not a Medical Doctor, so the above is not directly medical advice, so do not take it as such. FWIW, I have been informed of the above *BY* Medical Doctors, including but not limited to GPs, those specializing in Toxicology, and even Chemical/Toxinological specialists (there IS a difference between Toxicology and Toxinology, believe it or not).

BTW I do plan to get an H. arizonensis but they require larger cages and, from what I've heard, aren't communal (or some sources claim such).
I shy away from keeping them myself, as I worry (groundlessly) that their popularity will eventually earn them a place on CITES, at which point The Man [tm] *wlll* take an interest in what citizens are doing out at night gathering scorpions of *any* type -- particularly in AZ, where the Saguaro cacti are protected by law (and rightly so). Open carry being legal in AZ, go ahead & bust a cap in a 300+ year old Cactus, and see if Johnny Law doesn't have something to say as they cuff & stuff you. Seriously, though, Hadrurus spp. are happiest being able to make a spiral burrow many feet deep, and I'm not up to the construction of a 6'-8' deep enclosure just for one, so I no longer keep them.

Oh and please don't mention any Androctonus sp. or Leiurus quin, or Tityus or anything that can kill you with a single whip of the tail.
Vide supra for my comments on that. FYI, Tityus serrulatus (at least) actually *can* give you pancreatitis -- that's not apocryphal, despite my earlier thoughts that it was -- IIRC it's Tityustoxin IV that can do it, though anyone who knows more (Brian...? Luke...?) can feel free to correct me on that point, as the research on that is public, and I'm just too lazy to look for it right now.

There's no way my mom would let me keep one of those even though it wouldn't be all that hard to do so.
Ah, well, yes: if you are still a minor (per the Laws of the State), I cannot recommend the keeping of *any* scorpion which could potentially escape and -- even though Parabuthus leiosoma doesn't have a single death associated with it, anywhere -- say, kill your dog or whatever.

Note that, if you do keep any of the communal Centruroides spp. mentioned above, ALL are fantastically good at The Great Escape, and once one has a number of them, keeping precise track of them not being practical, you MUST ensure you have 100% ESCAPE-PROOF enclosures. Centruroides Liberation for myself to date: Zero (not counting those I tested in enclosures sealed in a larger enclosure, done for deliberate tests on just HOW escape-proof the first enclosure was, with those emerging recovered entirely from the inside of the outer enclosure). Also note that Centruroides, being errant types, are veritable masters of being unseen once free, so they WILL disappear if they achieve liberation...And quickly.

OTOH, an Androctonus I had a recent experience with who unbelievably enough liberated herself not from just one, but TWO enclosures (don't even ask -- you wouldn't believe me anyway), being VERY aggressive types, was less interested in fleeing than in scoping out her surroundings, making for an easy capture of a much more "devastating" scorpion. Had it been a Centruroides or Tityus, they'd probably have vanished before my eyes.

Just worth thinking about. Not to persuade you towards a "hotter" scorp (and certainly not encouraging anyone underage or new to the hobby at ANY age to keep a potentially venomous beastie), just sounding off in a hopefully useful fashion as far as those you've cited go, IME.

FWIW, if you have a cat, they are entirely immune to Centruroides sculpturatus (aka AZ Bark Scorpion) neurotoxin, and even if they get a sting or two, merely shake their paw and proceed to munch on them. I cannot say they same for any other spp. of scorpion in regards to cats, but am thinking of testing their immunity with one of my larger Androctonus spp. (see www.evilbeast.net). I'll keep everyone posted ;D


HTH,


~JMB
 

bluefrogtat2

Arachnoangel
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Oct 19, 2006
Messages
913
nice read

loved the read,but i have kept and bred desert hairy's in a 2.5 gallon enclosure.currently have a male in one and a gravid female in another.and both are happy and healthy.just keep a nice hide and they will do fine
andy
 

EightLeggedFrea

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
818
Ah, well, yes: if you are still a minor (per the Laws of the State), I cannot recommend the keeping of *any* scorpion which could potentially escape and -- even though Parabuthus leiosoma doesn't have a single death associated with it, anywhere -- say, kill your dog or whatever.
Just so you know, I am 20 years of age (so I can legally buy an Andro etc) and I know ALL about Androctonus and other "dangerous" scorps. Reading about them for hours on end is one of my favorite hobbies. The prob is my mom isn't exactly what you would call a person who listens to you once you mention the desire to keep a potentially dangerous wild animal because you think they are so unique and respect-worthy. Women...right? Thanx for the input on everything though. I persoanlly really like the colors on P. liosoma so I might get that.

Also I forget to mention I'd like to experiment with S. maurus and M. martnesii. Or any other desert scorp, they are the best.
 

Xaranx

Arachnoprince
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Aug 18, 2007
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i had some jacksoni's in a 2.5, 2 females and a male. I do love these guys, easy to raise, breed, and the babies don't require pinheads or fruit flies. Can start them off on 1/4" roaches or crickets. Just put a few pieces of bark in there stacked up and a flat rock for mating. Keep your humidity up though, they like it more on the humid side, 60-70%.

You could also get some R. junceus, but they can be a bit harder to find. Keep your eyes open and watch the classifieds here and you'll be able to find some now that spring is coming around.

Hottentottas are all pretty communal as adults, could fit a pair in a 2.5


Nothing wrong with M. martensii either, could fit 3-5 in a 2.5
 

jmb

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
57
OK, fine, make a liar out of me, eh? ;D

loved the read,but i have kept and bred desert hairy's in a 2.5 gallon enclosure.currently have a male in one and a gravid female in another.and both are happy and healthy.just keep a nice hide and they will do fine
andy
Ok, well. First off:

A) That's awesome
B) Per Ye Olde Scientific Literature [tm] about the species, not the way to do it.

Please note that I have been, in the past (and probably still am, though hopefully less) guilty of passing on inaccurate information.

Not into making excuses, I have none, and can only offer explanations, primarily being that when I've inadvertently passed along inaccurate/horribly false or wrong information, it was because I was going by what I'd read in what I'd regard as likely-canonical sources (e.g., published books, peer-reviewed papers, etcetera). That there are SOOO many inaccuracies in not only many early studies of scorpions and arachnids in general, including ones which have made their way into books used for reference by Yours Truly, among others, is because...Well, mostly because the study of entomology, and arachnology in particular, is a bit on the orphaned side of things when it comes to funding. Also, sometimes there are (shocking!) researchers who make mistakes/fail to properly document things, others base something on that, and incorrect conclusions get reached...You get the picture.

So, Mea culpa -- though I do try and never *intentionally* pass along inaccurate information, I am the first to admit when I'm wrong.

Note that, if I make a mistake, I'm even so incredibly magnanimous I'm even willing to be forgiven. ;)

Anyhoo: while I don't literature on-hand at this second, I can say I recall having read more than one study done w/the AZ Giant Desert Hairy Scorpion (Hadrurus); one involved actually affixing (w/superglue or the like, if memory serves), a remote thermo-hygrometric sensor on the back of one which was then released back to (her) burrow, which was enormous, as theirs usually are, and spiral (of course), and -- here's the most interesting part -- at each bend of the spiral, the shelved-off intervals, each mini-antechamber was noted to have a specific and very different temperature and/or humidity than the others: that is, our humble hairy friend took no small amount of effort in tailoring their burrow, and despite acting on what we'd probably chalk up to instinct (as their brains are even less neurologically/computationally powerful than some of the denizens of our very own legislature), it was noted that they were constructing their burrows in a very exacting (and, IIRC) replicated fashion, presumably with the intent of tailoring the levels for variable climates, from the first 12" all the way to the sixth foot down.

Makes sense that, if mom pops w/a load of kiddies on her back, she can move back & forth between the spatial intervals in the spiral for increased humidity, temp changes, and the like, and giving her offspring the best chance at having the lowest infant mortality due to external conditions possible.

Of course, you're probably just as aware of this as I, along with being familiar with the casting material poured-down-the-burrow-trick, which has even revealed what they actually look like (the stereotypical angular spiral).

That some obligate burrowing species have SERIOUSLY pimpin' pads is not in question: that some (at the UoA, IIRC) theorized the aforementioned reasons why H. arizonensis husbandry in captivity was such a hit/miss kind of thing, and why those who acquired gravid females from the wild more often than not (at least many, many moons ago...) had terribly high infant mortality, up to 100%, because, kept in enclosures which were obviously nowhere nearly ideal in comparison to their chosen environs, I'd say it's hardly a leap of logic to assume these things were due to lack of their usual conditions; of course, most people would not take the admittedly ridiculously inordinate amount of time, effort, and space to re-create their environs down to a 'T', which is how *I* like to do things, when possible. Then again, I'm a perfectionist, and probably neurotically so...But not, I think, pathologically so, as my tendency towards being a bit of an absolutist in some ways does increase my success rate, and not just with scorpion-keeping.

That said, a friend of mine who was very sharp, very scientifically 'sloppy' (mostly didn't care, and treated his designs/implementations more as art than science, like a chef versus a chemist), earned the moniker "Aquaman" due to his positively UNHOLY abilities in aquaria-keeping/designs/raising/you-name-it. The nurse shark, lemon shark, and more exotic marine creatures than I can even count which he kept during much of his life were merely trivial when it came to the unbelievable efficiency and diligence which went into his designs, though. Cavalier, non-perfectionist, "it's good enough", and he did things I couldn't touch. At one point he kept a particular type of coral which was, I understand, difficult to maintain in a 55G tank. He kept it in a 5.5G tank (!). No, not a typo, and for those familiar with aquaria, the larger the volume of water, the safer and in some ways, easier it is to maintain, as larger water volume = more time to correct problems, with the reverse being smaller water volume = less time to correct problems.

My point is that he was actually *SO* damned talented and intuitively "good" at aquarium & marine-life-keeping that he could keep something not merely alive but actively flourishing in an enclosure one-tenth the size of what most people would keep something like that in....And in the end, likely fail anyway, regardless of effort.

If you are attentive & observant, possessed of common sense (IMNSHO) then you can and, for all I know, are, a fabulously good invert-keeper; it isn't that I'm unaware of others keeping Desert Hairies in enclosures I'd consider inadequate -- just that you may be one of those doing so that I don't know personally.

Contrariwise, you could be negligent as all hell (I don't know you in real life), and just lucked out thanks to one of the First Principles, which is NEVER, NEVER underestimate the tenacity of life: even the most complex organisms can prove incredibly durable -- the hardiness and adaptability of scorpions is certainly something one can NEVER put too much stock in; I once observed an AZ bark scorpion who was fatally injured (head smashed) live until system failure finally set in, moving about its enclosure not merely reflexively twitching, but still actually *alive*. It finally died -- three days later -- but during that time, continued behaving in a non-chicken-head-removed manner, including response to external stimuli like noise & light. If you can manage the same trick, please let me know (and be sure & post all movies on Youtube or the like).

Back on topic, while not indestructible, arachnids have great abilities to survive and even flourish in extremely adverse conditions -- much less ones which are merely "imperfect" -- and it is more my perfectionism than anything else, probably, which dictates what & how I house what I keep, so take my advice on some things with a grain of salt (the same size grain one measures apothecary-type things in, I mean -- so about 1/3rd of a gram), as I'm generally big on being as rigorously scientific as possible, particularly when it comes to observations/documentation of scorpions & the like.

Despite that, I'm actually *not* a control freak about RL in general, so go figure.


~JMB
 

jmb

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
57
Just so you know, I am 20 years of age (so I can legally buy an Andro etc) and I know ALL about Androctonus and other "dangerous" scorps.
Judging from your question(s), I was tentatively assuming you were not an "Invert Retard". If anything I said (or the fashion in which I said it) came off as condescending, or belittling, please accept my apologies, as such was not my intent.

FWIW, I'm generally so A) time-impoverished, and B) arrogant that I generally only reply to random posts here and there -- but ones which I think are worth responding to: IOW, if I thought you an idiot, I'd not have bothered with a response ;D

[N.B.: No, I have little/no free time, it seems. The trick is that I can write very, very fast.]

Reading about them for hours on end is one of my favorite hobbies. The prob is my mom isn't exactly what you would call a person who listens to you once you mention the desire to keep a potentially dangerous wild animal because you think they are so unique and respect-worthy.
An inevitable hazard of living with one's parents, naturally. Sorry to hear it :(

Women...right?
While I'm all one for waxing misogynistic, I'm generally doing it in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion; I'm the first to remind my significant other that ever since women got the vote, we've had the Great Depression, a World War w/Nukes included, Korean Conflict, Vietnam, King Bush I and II, and Hurricane Katrina, to name merely a few of the negatives which Women's Suffrage have wrought on us ;D

But enough of levity: Maurci actually has Tarantulas which are, last I saw, approximately the size of the face-huggers from the movie 'Alien', so I don't get much in the way of complaints about my scorpion-keeping :)

Thanx for the input on everything though.
Not a problem. I have loads of info to share, and when time permits, I do try & share it (in bits & pieces, but better than nothing).

I persoanlly really like the colors on P. liosoma so I might get that.
Are you familiar with Parabuthus heterurus? They're similar (w/the black telson and last segments), except they have a black telson, last segment the same yellowish as the rest, followed by a single black segment before the return to the lighter coloration -- really fantastic looking, and not precisely common in the trade. IIRC, they're very specifically found in/around Somalia, while P. leiosoma is found in Tanzania, which is further south of the War-Torn HellPit [tm] which Somalia is & has been for some time. Oh, unlike most other African States, which are veritable Utopias, provided you define Utopia as...Uhm, War-Torn HellPits. Feh :(

Anyhoo, if you get your hand on some P. hets, grab some for me, as well -- I've got none of those :(

Also I forget to mention I'd like to experiment with S. maurus and M. martnesii. Or any other desert scorp, they are the best.
I've less hands-on experience with those, sorry; currently, besides my regular faves, I've more recently got into Compsobuthus werneri spp. (Israeli ones); they are basically like AZ barks hit with a shrink ray, behaviourally speaking, and they are not, AFAIK, terribly "hot", but they ARE truly communal, and interactive w/each other.

Take care,


~JMB
 

~Abyss~

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
2,980
JMB, I simply love when you pop your head in here you give me reason to spend my luch here at work. EightLeggedF, P. leisoma get a pretty big size at least mine did. And they are pretty hot too. If you wanna stick with mild tiny scorps M. martensii are pretty small and pretty cool looking. I love them but they are kinda boring for some people. S. masenesis will not disapoint you. I love them. C. vittatus are pretty fun. Altough I haven't kept any adults before.
-Eddy
 
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