Immature Female Drumming?

Berta

Arachnosquire
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May 23, 2007
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68
My boyfriend and I each have a T. purpureus - sac mates that we raised from slings. His molted out as a mature male last go-round, mine appears to be female. My girl is still fairly small, about 3". I wouldn't have thought of her as ready to breed at her current size.

However, today I witnessed him drumming, and her responding.

My question is: Does the fact that a female responds to a male's drumming mean that she is physically ready and able to breed, or is it something that she might do even if she's not sexually mature - like a 10 year old girl tarting it up in a mini skirt and lipstick?
 

EDED

Arachnobaron
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Aug 12, 2004
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sounds like she's ready then,

usually sac mates when the males mature the females of the siblings are ready, doesnt matter what YOU think of their maturity :)

goodluck, its better to mate younger females anyways i think.
 

gbbgirl

Arachnoknight
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I wouldn't breed her yet. I've always heard that Males mature more quickly than females in t's, which makes them NOT breed with egg sack mates. This (male maturation age) is true in a variety of mammal species, definitely.
What I would be the most concerned about is not her maturity, but if she is physiologically capable of undergoing the stress of producing offspring. It takes a lot of energy to do so, and if T's get too stressed I've seen it result in them attacking a perfectly fertile egg sack and eating their own babies(though many things can cause this).
In many species of mammals females will produce offspring, but due to a young age, not be equipped to tend to them or fully develop them. I personally speculate that the same is true for T's, but have not seen referred journal article on this particular subject. Perhaps someone else on the boards has seen this.

I would suggest that you start a new thread entitled "At what age should I breed my female T. purpureus?" Or search for that topic on this forum.
 

Flying

Arachnoknight
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Oct 3, 2007
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Again with the 'interbreeding-leads-to-bad-things' discussion. Go ahead and attempt breeding them.We're talking about invertebrates here and there is absolutely no scientific proof that interbreeding amongst invertebrates leads to genetic deformities. You simply cannot compare mammals with invertebrates.

Besides that what is your source on males maturing before females because they wouldn't interbreed? To me that seems like a mere assumption (or wishful thinking) that once again doesn't have any scientific evidence to it.

Last but not least I've got a question for you. Do you think all available species in our hobby came from different bloodlines?
 

gbbgirl

Arachnoknight
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Wow, you just jumped down the throat of one of the few people on this board who does go "ewww...flipper babies" when speaking of interbreeding. :}
I don't worry about interbreeding in most species until the F3 generation from a sibling P1 mating. F3 and F4 are where you start to see deformity, morbidity and mortality. In all honesty, the father of animal genetics Robert Blackwell, whom I'm studying in my animal genetics class, took absolutely no consideration of relatedness when he started selecting for the certain phenotypes that are the foundation of domesticated animals today. Holstein Dairy cattle in the US are on average 9% inbred today. We got to the massive milk production we see today, from line breeding, inbreeding has intensely advanced many species of animal.

When a gene pool does get too small you can have problems (increased allelic frequency of lethal genes), this is seen frequently in endangered animal populations having difficulty rebounding even with human intervention in their reproduction.

That is why nature is not set up for only a-sexual reproductions, variation beyond individual mutation is beneficial. Mature males of many species disperse from their home territory because it is beneficial to the survival of their species for them to carry their DNA to females in different populations, with different polymorphisms. Haven't you noticed this with mature male tarantulas? Their wandering behavior transcends species and genus.

I'm more concerned about the viability of her egg sack due to physiological reasons, rather than genetics. She can try, but it may set the female back (time and energy wise) from a fertile sack, to try and produce this sack, now with a lower chance of fertility.

No, I don't think all species came from different bloodlines. I think they came from what was available when/where males and females were mature in captivity. But she has time, and her female is only 3".

But thanks for questioning my logic. I started looking at some pics of this genus, and now I want one, I think I'll try for a Tapinauchenius violaceus, formerly known as T. purpureus.:)
 

Flying

Arachnoknight
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Yeah I wasn't trying to be a jerk or something, I just want people to look at both sides. I personally like to see evidence of something before I start believing in it. Just like saying there are aliens while there is no real proof, I'd like to believe there are aliens but I'd like to see some evidence first :p
 

Protectyaaaneck

Arachnoking
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my t. violaceus is so freaking gorgeous now, it just molted and its now actually purpleish. before molt it was a poopy brown lol. Now it looks soooooo sweet, and also i found out that it is female wooooohooooo.;P
 

Protectyaaaneck

Arachnoking
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which brings me to my next question, I want to get better pics of it, any of you take em out of their enclosures and hold? i know they are fast, but i am prepared. I am betting that I shouldnt hold it just because every time i do anything to its cage it usually bolts in its burrow/hide thing. although lately it has been chilling out after its new molt, not as flighty. But I do want to get better pics of it out of its enclosure.

I hope you do try to breed, I have thought about doing it myself with my t. violaceus just because she is so awesome looking that I want more of em haha.
But it will be a long time till im ever ready to try and breed T's, I still have way to much to learn about them being a newcomer to the world of T's.
 

xhexdx

ArachnoGod
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usually sac mates when the males mature the females of the siblings are ready, doesnt matter what YOU think of their maturity :)
goodluck, its better to mate younger females anyways i think.

With all due respect, none of that is true.

From what I have heard, younger(smaller) females have greater odds of dropping bad sacs, or not closing them up right, and they usually lay sacs with fewer eggs in it as well.

The reason males mature before females from the same sac is to help to naturally prevent inbreeding. This way, the mature males will breed with females from previous generations.

The general consensus on female 'mature' size is 60% of their adult size, but I wait till 80% before I attempt to breed.

Hope this helps.

--Joe
 

Berta

Arachnosquire
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May 23, 2007
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Gbbgirl and xhexdx, you've pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. While it seemed likely that she was physically capable of copulation at this point, and might try to make a little sac, there was a pretty good chance that she wouldn't be good at it - infertile eggs, badly made sac, eating it up, etc.

And yes, I'm sorry, she's a T. violaceus now - I can't always keep up with the name changes.

I'll probably give her another couple of molts and then see if I can dig up a date for her. In the mean time, I have a really lovely and much larger female T. plumipes that may be the vehicle for my first foray into tapinauchenius breeding.

And gbbgirl, get thyself some taps! They're lovely.
 

Philth

N.Y.H.C.
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My first eggsac from this sp, was from a female that was about 3 inches. She's ready. Tapinauchenius are not large spiders, How big do you want it to be before it breeds?

The reason males mature before females from the same sac is to help to naturally prevent inbreeding. This way, the mature males will breed with females from previous generations.
Hi Joe, I always had a hard time buying that one. I just cant give mother nature that much credit I guess. I've got a communal tank of P. regalis from the same sac and the biggest one is a female. (of course conditions in captivity are much differant then the wild.)


Later, Tom
 

Berta

Arachnosquire
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May 23, 2007
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Weeell... My other tap girl is a little under 4" and just looks a lot more "grown up." I had thought that about that size would be more appropriate for breeding.

Actually, we got these slings from you Tom, about a year ago. Not sure how old they were when you sent them out, but they were about .5". That makes her only, what... a few months over a year old? Does that sound right?
 

Philth

N.Y.H.C.
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Oh nice, haha. They were prob 2nd or 3rd instar when I sent them out. It wont matter how old they are either way if you decide to breed them. As long as the female is big enough to breed.

I say give it a shot whats the worst that can happen.

small eggsac- at least you got some

bad or no eggsac - no harm done

dont breed them - the male goes to waste

Later, Tom
 

MadTitan

Arachnopeon
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May 13, 2007
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41
We tried breeding them tonight, and they were all for it. Hard to keep them apart with a stick, and I mean that literally. The were undeterred by lights, noise, vibrations or a stick - it seems nothing could spoil the mood. We put them in a larger aquarium and opened both enclosures about 10" apart from each other. They both came out and met in between.

The problem seems to be that the male is too large for the female, or she's too small for him - however you want to look at it.

He would back up and she would follow until he was directly above her on the glass, then he would hook her fangs, push her back, and off the glass. (then I folded a shirt and put it under them for some cushion) He would hang on and follow her down to the bottom and attempt insertion, but it looked like her furrow was too close and instead he ended up poking around her spinnerets. Sometimes, she would just fall, and then they would get in position for another try. I tried to maneuver the male to approach from the side, but he had definite ideas about where he wanted to be in relation to her - directly above, and only directly above.

They tried a dozen times, and eventually, she just stopped being responsive to his tapping and shaking and touching, at which point they were put back in their respective enclosures.

Frustrating to watch, but very educational first attempt at breeding tarantulas. I expect we will give them another chance in a day or two.
 
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