Mites.

[biomarine2000]

I for one mean no disrespect or sarcasm if it comes across that way. I think since you seem to know the most about mites, maybe you should start a new thread about just mites. Type up some type of educational thread. Maybe we can get the mods to make it a sticky. It is extremely hard to find any revelant information about mites from anyone that actually knows what they are talking about, or even consistant in their explination. (And that doesn't mean anyone from this post). I am merely talking about other sites and searching for answers via search engines. I would love to have a lot of education about them.

[Bill S]

So you are a mite-xpert, then?

I have never claimed to be a mite expert, and I certainly am not one. But I do seem to have a better understanding of them than many of the people who post here about them. (And that's unfortunate - it reflects less on my knowledge than in other people's superstitions.)

I do get involved with catching and documenting mites - more than I really want to, if the truth be known. But the result is that I am more familiar with them and know a little more about their natural history.

I also have some familarity with insects, and with biology in general, which helps when I see descriptions of situations described on this board. And I've been keeping animals for about half a century, and have seen or made many of the mistakes that people here are making. Again, this does not mean I'm an expert, but I do have some knowledge and experience.

What I saw was tiny little dudes, smaller than grains of normal sand, congregating around the water and food (which were close together). I thought it was no big deal. Later I saw them en mass on a roach that had died. No big deal, I thought, they are just scavenging. Some time passed and they were all over in there, especially on the roaches. When it happened to my Blaberus roaches I could see them constantly scraping their eyes and face, which were covered in the same little organisms. ....

OK. Now we can look specifically at your case. First, it's obvious that there's an environmental condition that allows this "pest population" to proliferate. Mites do not tend to bloom like this. Very likely you had Collembola, which would behave in exactly the manner you describe if your cage conditions were a bit too damp and there were decaying food left in there. They will not hurt your roaches, although I'm sure your roaches were annoyed to have these guys crawling all over them. (I would be too.)

Collembola are very common animals, and if people on this board would take a little time to familiarize themselves with them, more than half the false alarms over mites would cease. It will vary in different parts of the country, but one place that I can always count on finding Collembola is in large flower pots or planters that have been kept damp. Water such a pot with enough water to flood it and Collembola will appear on the surface. Usually grey or white, and fast moving. They are scavengers on decaying material, especially plant material.

Do mites start out in the water and food dishes and later move to the roaches? Yes, for sure. I saw that in both cases.

Again, I'm going to say "no". What you saw were almost certainly not mites. You had a Collembola population, and that would start exactly the way you describe. They are so common that you probably always have a few living in your roach colonies (I've always got them in my cricket colonies). And when conditions allow, they multiply rapidly.

I think my experience is more useful to other hobbyists than your blanket statement that mites do not move from scavenging to clinging on our pets, that they can't hurt insects and spiders by entering booklungs (which I only suggested as a possible mechanism because I read it elsewhere),....

I'll agree with you only half-way on this. Your experience would have done some good if you had recognized what the real problem was and reported it as such. But reporting it as a mite infestation and speculating on some unusual cause-and-effect perpetuated some of the superstitions that are already too abundant here. Sorry if I sound like I'm beating you up on this - I don't mean to dum on you or insult you. I'm really more interested in getting some more practical understandings out there.

Also, my statement that these animals will not reach flood capacity and start moving into book lungs still stands.

The lice thing, of course, was a typo.

OK. But it was coser to the mark than you may have realized. The "lice" or "mites" were actually Collembola.

[Bill S]

I for one mean no disrespect or sarcasm if it comes across that way. I think since you seem to know the most about mites, maybe you should start a new thread about just mites. Type up some type of educational thread. Maybe we can get the mods to make it a sticky.

No sarcasm taken. As I mentioned in my previous post - I don't claim to be an expert. But you are right - a sticky with some REAL info would be very useful. I'm willing to put something together - but it will take a while. When I do have something ready, I'll offer it. Meanwhile if someone else can take on such a project, go for it.

[skips]

"Mites (Acari: Penthaleidae) are the most regular and important
pests of canola in Australia, in a way analogous to the crucifer
flea beetle, Phyllotreta cruciferae (Groeze), which attacks
canola crops in Europe and North America (Burgess 1977).
There are several species of mites that can incur severe damage
to canola seedlings, threatening crop establishment across all
production regions. Both the nymphs and adults rupture the
surface of cotyledons and leaves, removing cell contents, and
their infestations cause the plants to wilt and die, especially if
environmental conditions are unfavourable for the growth of
canola plants (Miles & McDonald 1999).
The mite species attacking canola in Australia include the
redlegged earth mite, Halotydeus destructor (Tucker) and at
least three species of blue oat mites, i.e. Penthaleus major
(Dugès), P. falcatus (Qin & Halliday) and P. tectus sp. n. (Qin
& Halliday 1995; Weeks et al. 1995; Halliday 2005). Halotydeus
destructor is known as the most destructive seedling pest
of canola, as well as pastures and other winter crops, in southern
Western Australia, South Australia and New South Wales,
and throughout Victoria and Tasmania. In some areas of South
Australia, Victoria and New SouthWales, the complex of blue
oat mites, especially P. falcatus and P. tectus sp. n., are also as
problematical as the redlegged earth mite (Weeks & Hoffmann
1999; Umina & Hoffmann 2004, 2005), whereas in Western
Australia, the clover mite (Bryobia praetiosa) and the balaustium
mite (Balaustium medicagoense) are important pests on
canola seedlings (Stanley & Marcroft 1999; Micic 2005a).
Because H. destructor is also well known as a major pest of
pastures, vegetables and other crops in Australia, South Africa
and New Zealand, its biology and ecology has been extensively
studied and well reviewed (Ridsdill-Smith 1997). In comparison,
the study of Penthaleus spp. has started only recently
(Weeks & Hoffmann 1999). Three Penthaleus species are
known to have some distinguishing characteristics in biology
and life history, although they often coexist with H. destructor
on the same crop plants in some areas of south-eastern Australia.
While H. destructor only reproduces sexually, all three
Penthaleus species are thelytokous parthenogens with the
populations comprised of clones (Weeks et al. 1995; Weeks &
Hoffmann 1998). Penthaleus major and P. falcatus produce
diapause eggs almost immediately after emergence in autumn
and continue to produce such eggs in early winter, although the
first appearance of diapause eggs in P. falcatus is slightly later
in the season than for P. major (Umina & Hoffmann 2003).
Penthaleus tectus sp. n. produces diapause eggs even later than
P. major and P. falcatus, but earlier than H. destructor (Umina
& Hoffmann 2003). The diapause eggs of P. major and
P. falcatus are laid on the soil surface and/or the base of
plants (Umina & Hoffmann 2003). Penthaleus falcatus is the
most common blue oat mite species feeding on canola, but it
has a more specialised range of host plants compared with
H. destructor (Umina & Hoffmann 2004). Penthaleus falcatus
is also the most tolerant of these mites to pesticides whereas
H. destructor is the most susceptible (Umina & Hoffmann
1999; Robinson&Hoffmann 2001). Penthaleus falcatus shows
advantages in competition with other blue oat mite species,
including P. major and P. tectus sp. n. on canola (Umina &
Hoffmann 2005), which may partially explain why it is more
abundant on this crop, although interactions between these mite
species and canola are not yet well understood."

Australian Journal of Entomology Jul2007, Vol. 46 Issue 3, p231-243


"Our research was designed to determine the effects of a mite complex consisting of the Banks grass mite (BGM),Oligonychus pratensis (Banks), and the two-spotted spider <em class="hilite">mites (TSM),Tetranychus urticae Koch, on <em class="hilite">corn yield and plant lodging. For BGM, mite days and damage rating for the whole plant and leaves in the lower third of a <em class="hilite">corn plant had the best correlation with <em class="hilite">corn yield. The best correlation with yield for TSM was plant damage ratings. The percentage loss per unit for most independent variables (mite densities, mite days, or percentage of the leaf area damaged on a plant) was very similar for BGM and TSM. Therefore, the same economic threshold can be used for either mite species. When TSM fed on <em class="hilite">corn in the dent growth stage, yield was not reduced, and their feeding did not influence <em class="hilite">corn plant lodging.ing."

Experimental and Applied Acarology
Volume: 17
Issue: 12
Page: 895 - 903


Just for a bit of perspective Bill. Not contradicting you but you seem to make it sound like mites need an animal host. Like they couldn't possibly eat maybe this guy's corn meal or whatever he feeds. these mites then WOULD NOT parasitize the T or Roaches as they would be adapted to plants only. Do you really think that many people on this board dont know what collembola are? That would be sad and I feel it's a bit of an overstatement.

[Bill S]

Just for a bit of perspective Bill. Not contradicting you but you seem to make it sound like mites need an animal host. Like they couldn't possibly eat maybe this guy's corn meal or whatever he feeds. these mites then WOULD NOT parasitize the T or Roaches as they would be adapted to plants only.

Mites that pose a threat to tarantulas need an animal host. There are many thousands of other mites that are either predatory, scavengers or plant feeders. None of those pose any threat to tarantulas. There are also thousands of parasitic mites that prey on animals other than tarantulas, and pose no threat to tarantulas. This has been discussed in many threads in recent months, and NOBODY has suggested that all mites need animal hosts. I've posted here many times pointing out that not all mites that attach themselves to spiders are parasitic, either. There are many phoretic mites that merely attach themselves to spiders, beetles or other transport hosts purely as a means of traveling around. Back a year or so ago my wife and I kept a carrion beetle that had a bunch of phoretic mites attached to it. When the carrion beetle fed, the mites would climb off the beetle and dive into the food (canned cat food - next best thing to carrion), but the moment the beetle started to leave they would all climb back on board. As for plant mites - you certainly don't have to go to Australia to find them. Red spider mites are a major garden pest here in the U.S. But red spider mites, like the phoretic mites, will never be a threat to tarantulas.

Going back to the case you refer to - what he described in his cockroach enclosure was Collembola, not mites. Yes, there are mites that can live in a cockroach enclosure, but his description did not match that. There are mites that could eat rotting corn meal - but again, that's not what he described. And any mite that does eat corn meal WILL NOT also attack tarantulas. And they will not get so crowded that they end up moving into the book lungs of the spider. There are some basic biological concepts involved here, and I'm dismayed that people seem so unaware of them.

Do you really think that many people on this board dont know what collembola are? That would be sad and I feel it's a bit of an overstatement.

Sad, maybe. But still true. I honestly feel that at least half the false alarms posted here about mites are actually Collembola that the people posting did not recognize. I'm sure there are many people here who DO know what Collembola are - and they are not the ones posting the mite alarms. If you take the time to do some searches, I think you'll realize how common these misidentifications are.

Note: I don't really think it's all that surprising that a lot of people on this board don't recognize Collembola. The average person on the street probably doesn't, and the people on this board tend to be "average people on the street" who are learning something about tarantulas.

[Serious Sam]

I have that problem with my female G rosea all i do is transfer her into a diferent cage and theroughly clean then dry her other cage to elimanate them you may want to try that even though they are harmless thay can become a problem if they are alowed to thrive and live on and establish a colony

[skips]

"This has been discussed in many threads in recent months, and NOBODY has suggested that all mites need animal hosts. I've posted here many times pointing out that not all mites that attach themselves to spiders are parasitic, either. There are many phoretic mites that merely attach themselves to spiders, beetles or other transport hosts purely as a means of traveling around."

Like I said, I'm not contradicting you. It was just that when that guy said he had mites in his feed you dismissed it like that was impossible, thus making it seem like the mites had to be parasitic. I just wanted to make a general point. Also, the australia story wasn't to say that you'd have to go to australia, just to provide a source that there are many species of non-animal parasitic mites.

"And any mite that does eat corn meal WILL NOT also attack tarantulas. And they will not get so crowded that they end up moving into the book lungs of the spider. There are some basic biological concepts involved here, and I'm dismayed that people seem so unaware of them."

I agree. Though you do seem to enjoy pointing out peoples biological knowledge inadequacies in a sometimes unhelpful tone.

"I honestly feel that at least half the false alarms posted here about mites are actually Collembola that the people posting did not recognize."

Fair enough


Maybe you can answer me a question then. I do have a bit of a mite problem and was planning taking my mites to the lab and using the camera microscope to take pictures for identification purposes. I've been told to use H. miles as a predatory mite control but I doubt that any one predatory mite could be a cure all for mites unless there is a common parasitic species on roaches that H. miles feed on. Otherwise, predatory mites are not non-specific predators and buying them would be pointless without knowing if they would eat my specific mites. Any comments?

[Miss Bianca]

I just wanted to add, that I would love some real information as mentioned, about mites as well as collembola.
(A sticky would be awesome, and yes I think Bill is well versed and
educated in the ways of these critters,
from previous reading I've done of his contributions here.)

I have seen so many images
(ex: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3421/...24291aa7df.jpg
or http://www.gwyddoniaeth.org.uk/graff...ollembolaT.jpg )
which look nothing like the tiny white critters we talk about here),
not to mention different discussions about how or why,
and so, it would really help.

OK- Obviously there are hundreds of different kinds but for 99% of users
on here to assume which kind form in our T enclosures,
and not ONE image in dozens of pages I googled look like little white things,
I mean clarification would be great.

and also, SERIOUS_SAM, unless the collembola you experienced were on forgotten cricket leftovers,
they really shouldn't be forming in the enclosure with a Rosea,
as you mentioned you had, which absolutely love a desert- dry home...

[wedge07]

Tortuga I think the only real way to tell the difference between most mites is under a microscope.

[Bill S]

I've been told to use H. miles as a predatory mite control but I doubt that any one predatory mite could be a cure all for mites unless there is a common parasitic species on roaches that H. miles feed on. Otherwise, predatory mites are not non-specific predators and buying them would be pointless without knowing if they would eat my specific mites. Any comments?

Predatory mites are less specific than parasitic mites. Picture them as miniature spiders - for the most part, anything they can overpower is potential food. But size will play a part, as will microhabitat choice and behavior. A predatory mite that prefers to live under rocks will probably not be a great help in a tarantula cage. And some predatory mites are large enough that they would probably overlook the parasitic mites you hope to eliminate. In fact, some would be big enough to get eaten by a tarantula, or could attack a sling. The biggest limiting factor, though, would probably be availability. If H. miles is commercially available and has the right size and behavior patterns, then that would be a good set of recommendations.

Tortuga I think the only real way to tell the difference between most mites is under a microscope.

Pretty much true - but a camera with a good lens can be a great help.

Just to add some color to this discussion, I've attached a couple pictures of local species of predatory mites. (My wife was the photographer.)





Not quite the "tiny white things" that get mistaken for mites so often.

[upwith inverts!]

OH! My turn to ID! Is that a velvet mite?
(sorry, don't care enough for mites to know the scientific name.)

[Bill S]

OH! My turn to ID! Is that a velvet mite?
(sorry, don't care enough for mites to know the scientific name.)

Yup. You got it. Two species of velvet mites, also known as trombidiid mites.

I've got a busy day in front of me - got some people coming out to the dojo this morning to practice kyudo, then heading down into the Huachuca Mountains in the afternoon to photograph social spiders. But I'll try in the next day or so to post more pictures of mites. For all the "cute fuzzy" of the velvet mites, there are some other predatory mites that would fit well in a sci fi movie. I'll also see if I can get my wife to photograph some Collembola for comparison.

Meanwhile, anyone want to guess what they are seeing in this picture?

[skips]

I have seen so many images
(ex: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3421/...24291aa7df.jpg
or http://www.gwyddoniaeth.org.uk/graff...ollembolaT.jpg )
which look nothing like the tiny white critters we talk about here),
not to mention different discussions about how or why,
and so, it would really help.

OK- Obviously there are hundreds of different kinds but for 99% of users
on here to assume which kind form in our T enclosures,
and not ONE image in dozens of pages I googled look like little white things,
I mean clarification would be great.

Hmmm...ok, then I concede that a good number of people here don't know what a mite looks like.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the species of parasitic mite that I've seen that could be an invertebrate pest really are very tiny white things. Under a microscope they are clearly translucent arachnids. Really, It shouldn't be hard to eye ball it and tell if it's collembola or a mite. You just wouldn't be able to tell the species of mite.

Bill, do you even think a microscope would be conclusive? In my experience with inverts that small you would need to dissect genitals or even to DNA testing.

[upwith inverts!]

An MM sicariidae?(six eyed crab spider)

[Bill S]

An MM sicariidae?(six eyed crab spider)

Olios fasciculata - giant crab spider - but with a face full of phoretic (not parasitic) mites. The thing to look for here is where the mites are attaching. In this case they have attached to smooth surfaces. Parasitic mites would have homed in on joints or places where their mouth parts could have penetrated. Phoretic mites attach merely as a means of "hitching a ride". A crab spider moves a lot faster than these little mites can, so using the spider as a means of dispersal helps distribute the mites to new territories.