Inbreeding Project ... Attn Martin H and all who wish to discuss.

MrBaronIsBack

Arachnoknight
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In light of the interest people have shown in my comments about my project, I decided to start a new thread. As some of you already know, I am waiting for a group of Curlyhair slings to get large enough to sex so that I can separate out some individuals to officially begin the project. That said, I am going to further state that I am not trying to single-handedly tackle this issue. I would welcome news from others that they plan to perform this experiment as well... with different species. This way, any variations that might occur in the experiment from species to species can be documented, and notes can be made that individual discoveries might not be the rule for other species. In addition, we all could share our information and make this project have a much greater impact on our hobby than I could alone. Martin H gave me the idea when he suggested that I try the experiment with Holothele incei. I looked into it, but right now, I just can't afford to add them to my collection because they are a bit more expensive here in the US and I noticed that he lives in Europe. Rick West made a good point when he said that behavioral data that we submit might not be entirely correct for our species wild counterparts. Unless we travel to their home countries and observe them in their natural homes, we will never know for sure. What we can know, however, is how spider genetics works, and we can show our critics (Mr. West not included) that the tarantula hobby is good for something other than indulging people in yet another pet animal. Since most of the research community is involved in discovering the nature of venoms and the overall taxonification of the animals we love so much, let's help them out and give them some reliable data they can put in the books!
 

MizM

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So.... are you going to attempt to mate brother to sister? Mother to son? I find this a very interesting project and will LOVE to see the results.
 

MrBaronIsBack

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I plan to start by mating brother to sister, as I do not own the mother of my slings. Then I'll go from there using different combinations from any resultant offspring. Who knows, I may not get past the first generation, all the slings may be sterile. In all honesty, that's what I'm expecting.

To publicly address a concern that was brought to my attention in a PM, without naming any names, I DO NOT PLAN TO LET ANY OF THE SLINGS INTO THE HOBBY UNTIL I HAVE FINISHED THE PROJECT AND CAN VERIFY THEIR STATE OF HEALTH. I am not a fly by night and I do not intend to rip anyone off by selling them an inbred pet that might die at any moment or be sterile, or otherwise unhealthy. I wouldn't want that to happen to me, and I don't plan on doing that to someone else. I plan to become a breeder at some point and turn my hobby into an income, thus helping everyone involved, including myself. How am I to do this if I knowingly allow inferior stock onto the market? I know this is a sticky subject and will raise a lot of anger and concerns, but to those who object, ask yourself this: If noone ever looks into this, how are we ever to know what the results can be?
 

Immortal_sin

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I personally say 'kudos to you' for even thinking about doing a project as long, involved, and with dubious results as this one.
Tarantula 'hobbyists' can contribute in uncounted ways to this hobby..one of the reasons why I keep trying to breed them. It's frustrating, and time consuming, but I keep telling myself that there are not many hobbies that the average hobbyist can contribute so much to as this one.
I just finished doing SEVEN tarantula presentations to grade school children today, and I really tried to stress the 'conservation' aspect of the hobby to them.
Most people don't give a damn about big hairy spiders. Somebody has to, or there won't be alot of these species left.
Holley
 

Malhavoc's

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I am going to go a 'selective breeding' atempt wih g rosies for the biggest reddest red phases. that being said I have a question tfor you how will you determine tha here healh is safe to sell into he hobby? behavior longitiviy and sexuality atre large factores yes but ha doesn mean atn internal mutaion ort chromozone damage wont occutre tha we can see from phsycal attributes just a though for you to ponder..,

EDIT: I ask this because in my own project I mayt htave to deal with some levels of inbreeding, and yes I know but seletctivly breeding to attemp to make a 'ultimate' so-to-say of any species is playing god but natural selection in the wild wotuld result in the srtongest and most addaptive survive, also I would not allow any of the 'selected' to be released into the wild but just hink how many people would like to have a garenteed none physco rosea tha could reach lets say 7" and actual was as red as a rose?
 
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MrBaronIsBack

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I have considered enlisting the help of the newly formed Research Institute for Exotic Species Microbiology, though I have not yet contacted them and cannot speak for their possible level of participation. In addition, I am well aware that this project could take as much as three years to get started, considering the current age of my slings. I probably won't look into that part for a while, as the individuals I plan to use have not been selected from my group of slings because they are far too small to be sexed. They seem to be very interested in the health and "normal" status of tarantulas, so it seems like a logical place to start looking for a person or group of persons that can examine selected specimens on a microscopic level. As for the length of the project, last night I did the math and, at an estimate of a minimum of three years to maturity, the project could take as much as twelve years or more to complete an examination of only three generations because the subjects take so long to mature.
 

Palespider

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This has been done before.

Quoted directly from the TKG:

"In both species, inbreeding caused severe deformities, difficulty molting, and reduced size after only one or two generations. Based on his experiences, we may safely say that inbreeding is to be strictly avoided except in the most extreme circumstances."

Though I see the point of your experiment, this gives me enough reason to say that this experiment will most likely end with the same or similar results considering the prior outcomes. Some like myself may consider this project cruel to some extent knowing the more than likely results.

Just my $.02

Jim B.
 
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MrBaronIsBack

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Care to spell out the TTG? I'm not familiar with that book and I'd like to get a copy if it is still available because if someone has already shown that inbreeding is not possible in tarantulas, I'll gladly back away from the project because I am not out to harm my critters.
 

MrBaronIsBack

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I have a copy of the guide, what page is that on? I've read it cover to cover but that paragraph doesn't sound familiar.
 

Wade

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I've read about simmilar experiments conducted by Rick West and Darrin Vennier and both came to the same conclusions Stan S. did. I think they were both working with A. avicularia.

That said, I just want to comment that I suspect that many popular spiders in the hobby are pretty inbred, but the spiders still look good. Rumor has it that ALL the Acanthoscurria geniculata in the hobby (at least in the US) are desended from a single eggsac from a wild caught female smuggled into Europe. I've never seen a WC A. genic to compare, but there's nothing sickly or anemic about the ones I have!

I do wonder if part of the apparent "inbreeding depression" we see in captive experiments is the result of breeding females who are too young and small. Contarary to popular belief, females actually mature faster than males...but at a smaller size than we would normally think of as "mature". I bred a very small CB A. avic a few years ago to a WC male. She made a sac, but only 5 slings emerged! These were very sickly and did poorly, most died within months. Following annother molt and greater size, I mated her to annother WC male and she produced a sac of 60+ healthy and robust slings.

Annother issue is species chosen. It may simply be that inbreeding effects some species more than others. I wonder if it may be more damaging to the short lived, fast growing aboreals like the avics who live in complex enviorments, reducing the likleyhood of them actually meeting one annother in the wild. It seems plausible to me that the long-lived terrestrials would be more resistant to inbreeding depression, since it seems that they couldn't avoid meeting one annother! I think the fast growing aboreals are usually chosen for these experiments because they get to breeding age quickly. I think looking at a terrestrial is a good choice. I would like to see some experiments with offspring-to-mother inbreeding as well.

Although I feel we should do our level best to avoid inbreeding whenever possible, it does seem that it isn't always possible. The effects are definately worth looking into.

Wade
 

Palespider

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Originally posted by Wade
I've read about simmilar experiments conducted by Rick West and Darrin Vennier and both came to the same conclusions Stan S. did. I think they were both working with A. avicularia.

That said, I just want to comment that I suspect that many popular spiders in the hobby are pretty inbred, but the spiders still look good. Rumor has it that ALL the Acanthoscurria geniculata in the hobby (at least in the US) are desended from a single eggsac from a wild caught female smuggled into Europe. I've never seen a WC A. genic to compare, but there's nothing sickly or anemic about the ones I have!

I do wonder if part of the apparent "inbreeding depression" we see in captive experiments is the result of breeding females who are too young and small. Contarary to popular belief, females actually mature faster than males...but at a smaller size than we would normally think of as "mature". I bred a very small CB A. avic a few years ago to a WC male. She made a sac, but only 5 slings emerged! These were very sickly and did poorly, most died within months. Following annother molt and greater size, I mated her to annother WC male and she produced a sac of 60+ healthy and robust slings.

Annother issue is species chosen. It may simply be that inbreeding effects some species more than others. I wonder if it may be more damaging to the short lived, fast growing aboreals like the avics who live in complex enviorments, reducing the likleyhood of them actually meeting one annother in the wild. It seems plausible to me that the long-lived terrestrials would be more resistant to inbreeding depression, since it seems that they couldn't avoid meeting one annother! I think the fast growing aboreals are usually chosen for these experiments because they get to breeding age quickly. I think looking at a terrestrial is a good choice. I would like to see some experiments with offspring-to-mother inbreeding as well.

Although I feel we should do our level best to avoid inbreeding whenever possible, it does seem that it isn't always possible. The effects are definately worth looking into.

Wade
In both cases they were terrestrials: Phlogiellus sp. and Grammostola iheringi.

Jim B.
 

Wade

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OK, but I'd still like to see some of the other issues looked at. If inbreeding is so destructive (within two generations), many species would have already dissapeared from the hobby. Why haven't they? How many species do we have, hobby staples mind you, that are from export-resricted countries? Many! The captive gene pool of many of these is probably tiny. The dirty little secret is that inbreeding is already rampant. It hasn't killed the hobby yet...will it eventually? Only time will tell.

Should we avoid inbreeding if at all possible? YES! For species with a big gene pool available, there is no excuse for inbreeding (except for experimental purposes).

Should we consider the issue closed? NO! Some species may be lost to the hobby forever without it. Experiments like Mr. Baron's can add to the collective knowledge of what we can expect to happens as borders get closed and more and more species become inaccessable to us. We may all already be part of an inbreeding experiment weather we want to or not.

Wade
 
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