SADS(Sudden Avicularia Death Syndrome)

SADS(Sudden Avicularia Death Syndrome)

The purpose of this thread is to pinpoint the exact cause of "SADS",or at least narrow down the reasons, and why figure out why it is so common among Avicularia. I have read many cases of this phenomenon and have been victim it myself. Most of the specimens were reported to just drop down and die, without any past indication of poor health.

It would help if all users would post a complete report of the incident on this thread from now on. The report would include the following information pertaining to the specimen's husbandry:

1) Temperature range.

2) Humidity range.

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No)

4) Preferred method of humidifying.

5) Ventilation information(A image of the enclosure would be most helpful).

6) Last 5 food items fed.

7) Food item background information(Species and what the food items ate/drank).

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No)

9) Description of the dead spider.(Death curl etc. A image of the the dead spider would be most helpful)

10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?
(Describe behavior).

11) Avicularia size/ Species.


Additional Information: Any suggestions or opinions.

*REPORT*

1) Temperature range.

72-80F.

2) Humidity range.

80-85%.

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No)

None present.

4) Preferred method of humidifying.

Daily misting.

5) Ventilation information(A image of the enclosure would be most helpful).

50 dram vial with 15 small holes punched in on the cap for ventilation.

6) Last 5 food items fed.

Can't remember last 4 items(death occurred happened months ago). Last food item was a B.dubia nymph

7) Food item background information(What the food items ate/drank).

B.dubia.

Dog food, carrots, apples, water cystals.

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No)

Yes

9) Description of the dead spider. (A image of the the dead spider would be most helpful)

Curled up at the bottom of the enclosure with B.dubia roach piece still in fangs.

10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?(Describe behavior).

None

11) Avicularia size / Species.

4th/5th instar / Avicularia versicolor

*SUGGESTION*

It's been suggested before, I don't really think that the causes of SADS is even close to one or a few reasons. I believe it is a term made up similar to DKS. Just a term used when people don't know the cause of death. Good luck however, hopefully you'll figure it out.
Here are some other threads discussing the topic,

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?
t=170546&highlight=SADS


http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?
t=165883&highlight=SADS

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=164567&highlight=SADS

*suggestion*

If you have any suggestions or anything to add to the SADS thread which is not a personal report, please title the post as *SUGGESTION* it would help to keep the thread a easier read. Otherwise title it *REPORT*

*suggestion*

I would also include the species of avic in the information you are gathering good luck

*Report*

1) Temperature range.

80* - 86* F

2) Humidity range.

85% - 90% Rh

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No)

Yes.

4) Misting frequency.
I do not mist my inverts, but opted to soak the substrate twice a week with this specimen.

5) Ventilation information(A image of the enclosure would be most helpful).

This photo was taken prior to planting foliage.
2.5 gallon arboreal setup:


6) Last 5 food items fed.

Roaches

7) Food item background information(Species and what the food items ate/drank).

Nauphoeta cincerea (Lobsterailed Roach)
Until the other two colonies I have establish, the Lobstertails are currently my primary species of feeder roach. As such, they are fed on a staple of high-grade cat food (EVO or Orijen) with fresh produce and grains (organic, if affordable) supplied at least three times per month, and fresh oranges supplied weekly. The colony is not so large yet that I run through much food for them.

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No)

Yes.

9) Description of the the spider's (A image of the the dead spider would be most helpful)

Ordinarily I would have described this specimen as very beautiful......






10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?
(Describe behavior).

No. The specimen was in premolt, and behaved as normal for this developmental stage.


11) Avicularia size/ Species.

Avicularia versicolor - 2" DLS

suggestion

I must give a +1 to Xian. My personal opinion is that SADS is merely natural selection seen on an individual basis. With most Avicularia slings being C(aptive)B(red), there is no fight for the largest to win, and no fight for the weakest to lose. So when we see deaths that have no determined cause, we are seeing a weaker one that didn't make it. It sucks, but I don't think it is anything more than that.



My suggestion however, is to not make #4 Misting Y/N, but instead do preferred method of humidifying. Misting is not the best way to up humidity, so I would think the current wording wouldn't apply to some/ most.

Suggestion - response

curiousme said:

I must give a +1 to Xian. My personal opinion is that SADS is merely natural selection seen on an individual basis. With most Avicularia slings being C(aptive)B(red), there is no fight for the largest to win, and no fight for the weakest to lose. So when we see deaths that have no determined cause, we are seeing a weaker one that didn't make it. It sucks, but I don't think it is anything more than that.

Click to expand...

I do agree with you and Xian for the most part. "SADS" is just a name for the unknown, and I do not believe it to be an actual illness or a single/specific problem. But the fact still remains that even if "SADS" stems from a variety of different problems/bad husbandry practices, we still don't know what these different problems are. Hopefully this thread(or others like it) will someday reveal what the causes of these types of death are and give them each their own name.

*Suggestion*

I think this is a great idea! We all probably agree that SADS is like saying IBS for people. it's just what the doctors tell us when they have no clue....

With so many people who collect Ts and in such large quantities, it doesn't make sense to not have more figured out about the medical conditions of Ts. When we put all our numbers together, we're bound to at least get some hypotheses out of it.

If we get enough responses here, we can combine the data into a table, look for trends, and then start testing hypotheses in a more controlled environment.

I would also add to the list whether or not the tarantula had been handled recently, or the webbing disturbed or torn.
I think that because avics are so cute, and pleasant to handle, that many may get over-handled.
I accidentally tore up my versicolor web trying to get a dead roach out, and it took about a week and half for the webbing to be repaired. I was nervous about it the whole time, because I knew a molt was imminent.
This is just a hunch, and NOT fuel for the handling debate.

But, that being thrown out there, I also agree with Xian and curiousme; Some slings just don't make it.

I applaud your efforts to get to the bottom of what you percieve to be a health problem within the hobby community but I have to disagree with you on a fundamental level which I summed up in this thread a little while back.

What is considered SADS is the result of weaker genetics and husbandry error. They're just delicate little buggers is all, no syndrome. Not trying to discourage this discourse but I think it is a bit misdirected.

Moltar said:

I applaud your efforts to get to the bottom of what you percieve to be a health problem within the hobby community but I have to disagree with you on a fundamental level which I summed up in this thread a little while back.

What is considered SADS is the result of weaker genetics and husbandry error. They're just delicate little buggers is all, no syndrome. Not trying to discourage this discourse but I think it is a bit misdirected.

Click to expand...

The purpose of the thread is not to find a cure for "SADS" but to identify what it is and what it consists of. The explanation that the death just "is" or "was meant to be" is not a valid scientific explanation. And if the Avics were just "genetically weak", which I highly doubt was the cause in all of those deaths, then this thread will help prove that. I think we should place genetics in the back seat until we take a look of the information and experiment with things that are actually under our control and that we can actually change. That being said, I'm not too sure on which points you disagree with me.

Let me make this more clear for everyone. The only reason I am using the term "SADS" is to refer to a concept which people already know and are somewhat familiar with. It is a term used to refer to the death of a spider of the genus Avicularia which drops dead for no "apparent reason", despite the caregiver fulfilling all of the care requirements. I am trying to find these reasons, and I am doing it through the use of concrete data provided by these reports. Whether or not the research concludes with "SADS" later being defined as a genetic defect, caused by improper care techniques, or other would be all the same to me.

Ok, I'll bite.

1) Temperature range.

70-80F

2) Humidity range.

Varied somewhat due to seasonal changes, A/C etc. I don't monitor enclosure RH directly but estimate variation within 50%-80% range.

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?

Don't provide a bowl for slings, particularly avics who don't use it.

4) Preferred method of humidifying.

Multi faceted: Room humidifier with sling vials, etc kept in a smaller tub lined w/ moist paper towels, misting and watering of individual enclosures.

5) Ventilation information

Kept in one of these.


6) Last 5 food items fed.

B. lateralis nymphs

7) Food item background information(Species and what the food items ate/drank).

Roaches fed on diet of cat food, dry oats, apple, banana, squash, etc

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?

No, moisture provided by fruit

9) Description of the dead spider.

Death curl on substrate, far from web tube

10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?

Specimen had been refusing food for more than a month prior to death. It escaped its enclosure and set up a web tube nearby. After recapture and setup in a new enclosure it only took prey once and refused all subsequent attempts at feeding.

11) Avicularia size/ Species.

A. bicegoi, approximately 1" DLS.

Link to thread about this specific spider.

*Suggestion*

Thoughts...

Do they die in such high ratios in nature?

Do they tend to have more offspring than other species?

Are they endangered or threatened in the wild?

Also, we're investigating conditions at the time of the SAD, but we're not comparing it to anything? How do we know what's different from how a successful A sling is treated vs. these?

If it is indeed just that Avicularia are weaker genetically, then that would open up sooo many more questions, and would still be worth investigating.

Sads

I don't know about you guys, but avics slings are probably on the hardest slings to care for, I raised other arboreal Ts like T.gigas and L.violaceopes and pokies effortlessly...but avics always bad luck.

These slings definitely have the highest death rates of any T I own. Most of my Ts die from old age or failed molts, but never went out for no reason.

I've had more than 4 healthy avicularia avicularia die off this way with and had proper temperature 80F, 80% humidity and ventilation. And just today my healthy 1/2 inch fully hydrated sling with a plump abdomen just passed just 3 weeks after I bought it. No visible sign of stress, not even a death curl, no mold infection.

Not to mention I had a 1/2 inch A.diversipes which I humbly paid over $100 Canadian for, died off a month after I bought it.

In fact, im kinda worried because I have a pair of A.laeta and A.sp metallica French Guyana

1) Temperature range: 77F (night) and 80-82F day

2) Humidity range: 80%

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No): I don't offer water bowls to slings under 1 inch

4) Preferred method of humidifying: I keep the substrate moist at all times, I use a humidifier to help molting

5) Ventilation information: Have them in pill jars with holes on the top, now with holes on the side

6) Last 5 food items fed: I gave her pinheads and pulverized adult crickets

7) Food item background information: Domestic pet store crickets. I gut load them by feeding carrots, lettuce, and dried dog food

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No): No. I use a cotton ball and pour water over it

9) Description of the dead spider: Chelicerae was spread apart, did not move when I touched it, not even in a death curl. Plump abdomen, so I know she was fully hydrated and healthy

10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death? Slow behavior as I expected it would. It was most likely to be in premolt

11) Avicularia size/ Species: Avicularia avicularia 1/2 inch length

This happened months ago...

2 specimens

1) Room Temperature.

2) No Humidity gauge...

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes, a little soda bottlecap. Probably wasn't even necessary at that small size)

4) Misting the cage. Even with 45 vent holes I was getting some condensation.

5) 25 holes on the top part, 20 on the larger, bottom section. (Michael cubes)

6) Last 5 food items fed - all pinheads.

7) Food item had veggies, Whole Bran and some fruit.

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(No)

9) Death curl on the substrate. Had been on the sub the day before some of the time. No webs.

10) As mentioned, it had been on the substrate but was still moving normally the day before death.

11) Avicularia versicolor 1/2".


Additional Information: Think cage was too wet and too big. They both ate in that cage, so I don't think finding the food was a problem.

This happened 2/24/2010

1) Temperature range:
85 Degree Room

2) Humidity range:
85%

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No):
No

4) Preferred method of humidifying:
Keeping substrate moist, as well as daily misting so the sling had water to drink.

5) Ventilation information:
Hobby cube with 1" holes on the top, and sides(cross ventilation)

6) Last 5 food items fed:
Pre-Killed Pinhead 2 days prior to death.

7) Food item background information:
Domestic pet store crickets. Gut loaded with cat food, and carrots.

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No):
Wet cotton ball.

9) Description of the dead spider:
Its was laying on the enclosure bottom, legs spread. I touched it to try and get it to move...but it didn't. It had just eaten a couple days prior...and had a nice plump abdomen.

10) Did the specimen show signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?
It was very sluggish the night before, appeared to have trouble climbing the sides of the hobby cube, and (idk if this is relevant) it hadn't webbed since I purchased it (about a month and a half ago).

11) Avicularia size/ Species:
Avicularia metallica 1/2 inch length

Happened March 23, 2010


1) Temperature range.
67 nights 78 days

2) Humidity range.
High (hard to tell in a small deli cup

3) Was a clean water bowl available at all times?(Yes/No)
No, due to it being a 3/4 inch sling

4) Preferred method of humidifying.
Wetting the substrate

5) Ventilation information(A image of the enclosure would be most helpful).

6) Last 5 food items fed.
Crickets, but refused food for a month and a half up to time of death

7) Food item background information(Species and what the food items ate/drank).
Carrots

8) Were the feeders given water crystals?(Yes/No)
No

9) Description of the dead spider.(Death curl etc. A image of the the dead spider would be most helpful)
Death curl on substrate, away from webbing

10) Did the specimen show were signs of discomfort or behave oddly before its death?
(Describe behavior).
Not at all besides not eating, attacked a cricket and ate its leg the day before death

11) Avicularia size/ Species.
3/4inch Avic Avic

*suggestion*

are they/were they ever being handled?
how often were they rehoused?

Handled once, rehoused once months ago