Miracle grow brand perlite dangerous for Ts??

I was wondering because I had a freak death of a H mac that was very healthy & a P irmina in part perlite / Eco earth mixed substrate?
both of the two were burrowers... & substrate was wet to keep humidity up
MY other H macs & p Irmina had the same exact substrate .. kept drier & are still alive... second H mac also burrowed... so weird
A LOT of my TS have Perlite like 1/5th in there containers so this is ISSUE must be delt with very fast

I am changing substrate, because I just realized the bag said it has a small amount of.... miracle grow plant fertalizer in it..
should I get rid of all my Perlite??

I only bought it cuz my Homedepot dosnt sell Vermiculite.. which I later on found Vermcilute at Lowes..

All miracle grow brand products contain fertilizer. I'm not sure what kind, but I would never use any of their products for any animal. I'm not convinced that is what led to their deaths (since not all your T's are dying) but I'd change everything ASAP.

use COCOFIBER substrate ..since i was a noob and i got a P.irminia sling i had no clue how to take care of IVE NEVER HAD ANY DEATH PERIOD.....that may/may NOT be part of the reason your ts are dropping like flies. im sure you've seen me hating in other threads bro, and im sorry. being a "chat room warrior" isn't my thing i swear. i just get frustrated easily, and in this instance its FOR you. i hope that whatever horrible chain of events youve been having ends SOON. I've been drooling over the thought of gettin some H. macs for my own collection and i will be devastated if i hear something happen to yours. good luck

Use either straight coco fiber or peat.

If you use 100% perlite or 100% vermiculite you should have no problems. But you have to make sure that they do not have any additives. Home Depot sells 25lb bags of each for $16 go to the garden section outside. I use anywhere from a 75% perlite or 75% vermiculite mix to 25% coco fiber, or a 50-50 mix. I tend to go even higher on the % of perlite/vermiculite when I know I have a sac coming. This tends to deter the mites and mold almost 100% in my tanks.

Since you mentioned that your mix does have fertilizer in it, you will have to change ALL of the tanks that have the mix and throw the perlite in your garden.

Why exactly is it that we think fertilizer kills Ts? Probably a rare type here and there has nasty additives- I would more concerned about wetting agents so watch for things that say "moisture control" as it is likely a detergent. However to my knowledge there is not one single scrap of evidence besides wanting to find something to blame when a T dies that would indicate fertilizer as the culprit. Anyone able to produce any literature to this effect? I'm fairly certain this is a rumor and it doesn't really make sense if you think about it a minute- how is it that gardens which are heavily fertilized can support huge masses of variable pests without specialized poisons to control them? If the plant is taking up these chemicals it means the insects hosting on the plant are bio-accumulating and any insectivore is magnifying that yet again- yet lots of gardens have garden spiders, some even have garden tarantulas or other Mygalomorphs. The idea behind fertilizers is supplementing physiologic salts and minerals, trace ions, etc. that are missing in many soils we cultivate on.

I can say from impirical experience that at least many pre-fertilized peat moss brands are absolutely harmless, even with many years of exposure and over a good number of genera and stages of development. In my city you can't find pure peat (which I prefer to coco fiber immensely- I use 50/50 peat/vermiculite) except once in a blue moon, it almost always has an added fertilizer, even the big cubes at Home Depot and Lowe's. So I can say for certain that the types I have used are absolutely safe (including the dreaded MiracleGro Peat, which ironically I won't use for my plants but for other reasons, lol)- can anyone at all say for certain that fertilizer added to their medium killed their tarantula? That your T tested positive for high concentrations of X chemical from Y media upon necropsy even?

Of course someone is going to be captain obvious and say "better safe than sorry." People used to think it was unsafe to sail very far out into the sea for fear of being washed off the edge of the earth. "Safe" is relative to what information you have at your disposal. You can use your judgment based on what you know and what you feel comfortable with would be my advice. That said, if you are trying to find something to credit the death of your T with I'm afraid you are almost certainly barking up the wrong tree as evidenced by the survival of all your other Ts on the same media. I think the reality is that most unexpected T deaths are ultimately a mystery, just not enough people with ungodly amounts of money looking at these kinds of things unfortunately. Sorry to hear about your loss, I understand the motivation for your questions completely.

I just did a very simple search and found this. I'm sure there are many more suitable and applicable publications, but I don't have much time on my hands.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v500h876q3367432/
Effects of fertilizer-induced reduction of invertebrates on reproductive success of Loggerhead Shrikes(Lanius ludovicianus)

Not the best study ever, and not directly on the functional effects of fertilizer on invertebrates, but there is at least circumstantial evidence that they are harmful. I'd avoid fertilizer whenever possible. Considering how easy it is to avoid it, it seems like a logical decision.

Also, I highly doubt that the miracle-gro is what killed the user's T's directly. He's suffered what is approaching significant losses recently, and I think it represents an overall lacking in husbandry skills. However, fertilizer is something that could potentially contribute to long-term issues.

yeah you should get rid of all that stuff...just use straight coco fiber...thats all i use...i got 3 H. mac slings over a year ago, and i havent even used any substrate at all for them...just some plastic vines...they are now about 3"...doing just fine...

catfishrod69 said:

yeah you should get rid of all that stuff...just use straight coco fiber...thats all i use...i got 3 H. mac slings over a year ago, and i havent even used any substrate at all for them...just some plastic vines...they are now about 3"...doing just fine...

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No substrate is way better than bad substrate like he was using,IMHO....And those lil buggers finally grew for you? That's awesome!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21510203

Here's another article, and I find many similar documentations of fertilizer use reducing invertebrate populations. BUT the suggested mechanism is indirect, as jayefbe mentions -- it's that the fertilizer makes the plants stronger/healthier and more resistant to being fed upon by insects. Whether the fertilizer has any direct effects on invertebrate biology, I don't know. I hope not, as I've used fertilized Miracle-gro soil a couple of times when I had run out of better substrates.

yeah..some of my arboreal slings i keep on no substrate...but have started keeping coco fiber in with all of them....yeah i definitely wouldnt use it when it says miracle grow....im kinda 50/50 on the looks of the vermiculate also..but yeah those little things actually grew some man...haha...recently was able to get sexable molts...2 males/1 female..

BrettG said:

No substrate is way better than bad substrate like he was using,IMHO....And those lil buggers finally grew for you? That's awesome!!

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I keep my spiders in a blend of coco fiber, miracle gro vermiculite, peat, and soil... My spiders all seem fine.

I've used Sta-green flower and vegetable planting mix blended in my substrates for years without problems for my slings or adults.

If I were you, I would rehouse all of my Ts...not saying that the miracle grow vermiculite can cause problems, but its not really worth the chance..

jhalla16 said:

I keep my spiders in a blend of coco fiber, miracle gro vermiculite, peat, and soil... My spiders all seem fine.

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DaveM said:

the suggested mechanism is indirect, as jayefbe mentions -- it's that the fertilizer makes the plants stronger/healthier and more resistant to being fed upon by insects

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Yep, but not a problem for non-plant eating types. It's primarily the composition of the fertilizer that matters in a closed system where food supply is artificial. I could imagine the concentrations being high enough to cause "salt" burns or something similar, but they are basically inert and present in most eukaryotes anyway and the additives are minute in these products. I think the main complaint with fertilizers are in terms of ecology at large, not so much acute poisoning such as the suspicion we see towards it in the tarantula hobby. In that way they are just as bad as they are good- more berries for some birds to eat, less bugs for the shrikes, no?

---------- Post added 01-11-2012 at 01:19 PM ----------

catfishrod69 said:

If I were you, I would rehouse all of my Ts...not saying that the miracle grow vermiculite can cause problems, but its not really worth the chance..

Click to expand...

I would agree here simply because whatever happened could potentially be some type of contamination or vector that you don't want to harbor. In general with most issues, a thorough cleaning will do wonders for prevention.

---------- Post added 01-11-2012 at 01:31 PM ----------

jayefbe said:

I'm sure there are many more suitable and applicable publications

Click to expand...

Believe me, I've checked and re-checked Web of Science and a number of other databases ( I just like reading about T's and anything else T related). You really don't have to read anymore, that article basically sums up the rest. Investigators find downstream effects but that is not the assumed mechanism in this hobby. The assumption here is that the presence of the fertilizer in an enclosure can kill a tarantula. None of the databases I have access to have any literature that indicate any negative effects on the physiology of invertebrates without it being first an after effect of damage to the ecology. In that case, even organic fertilizers have precisely the same effect- they nitrify lakes, make more robust plants, etc. etc. See the distinction? Ironically the suggested alternative to using chemically fertilized media is look for the word "organic." Moreover, at least with chemically supplemented media you know exactly what you are getting. With organic, you are getting whatever low standards we have for "organic" (here in the US anyway) which includes composted waste matter from herbivore that feed on fertilized and pest-treated pastureland, conveniently concentrated by the digestive systems of said herbivore. So if you really want to be safe just to err on the side of caution as recommended in other posts, use strictly inorganic media.

Top soil & Vermiculite ok for a Cobalt Blue spider?

Id upload a photo & see what others would say,but for some unknown reason my picture files are not able to be uploaded.
I bought this http://aohoshi2008.deviantart.com/art/Spider-grounding-2-290508274 is both of these ok for my Cobalt Blue?