A. avic? and P. imperator rehousing help!

Kaiju · Aug 13, 2012

On Sunday I came into possession of two “pink toe” tarantulas (fairly sure they are A. avicularia) and two P. imperator by way of a family friend. I was told that they came with cages and complete setups and that they were no longer wanted, so I could just have them. I should’ve known that meant something wasn’t quite right, but I accepted since I’ve owned Ts in the past and figured that scorps wouldn’t be that much harder to care for. I was expecting four tanks, and instead I was presented with two 5gal tanks. I was initially astonished, so I asked if there was anything else that went with them and I was told that this was it. The woman mentioned that she had never seen the tarantulas web that much in the tank. I took a closer look and realized I had just been given a mated pair…

The female is webbed into a corner of the tank where she can roll the sac up and down while the male appears to be guarding her. He will move around the tank from time to time, seemingly checking on the conditions, then go back to the female’s corner and either sit on the exterior of her webbing or at the base of it. And of course the person who owned them had no idea how to create an arboreal tank setup, and her attempt at a terrestrial setup is abysmal. Maybe an inch of coconut fiber covering the floor. I have never bred Ts before but I don’t really want to destroy her egg sac. I’m also not sure if I should remove the male or let him continue guarding her. I am guessing that the sac is about 2-3 weeks old. The woman said she’s had them for years so I am inclined to think that the Ts were bought as slings or very close to sling age. They’ve lived together this entire time so I don’t know what their aggression levels are towards each other. I don’t intend to let them mate again so I will be placing one of them in a new enclosure once the time is appropriate. Also, the webbing extends to the lid of the enclosure, so I can’t remove the lid without destroying part of her web “cocoon”.

As far as the scorps are concerned, they have a similar, pitiful tank setup. I read the thread about how to make a scorp tank and I will be doing that asap, but I’m not sure if I should keep them together. I’m guessing that they are also male and female due to the size difference, but I don’t know anything about sexing scorpions.

Questions:

Should I remove the male T from the tank now, or wait until later?

Are there any signs that the female T will exhibit when the sac is close to hatching? When should I remove the slings and what is the best way to do that? I will be buying deli cups for them.

What size tank is appropriate for two scorps if I DO keep them together, and if I don’t, do I need to upgrade them to larger individual tanks, or could I just buy another 5gal and separate them?

I have a 40watt “night glo” moonlight lamp that is made by exo-terra. It’s intended for reptiles, but is this appropriate for the scorps?

What kind of heat apparatus should I buy for the scorps? Should I go with side heating or aerial heating?

Any other suggestions or input, including other websites that have good info, would be very much appreciated. I live in North Florida in the panhandle. It’s always humid.

Tarac · Aug 13, 2012

Kaiju said:
On Sunday I came into possession of two “pink toe” tarantulas (fairly sure they are A. avicularia) and two P. imperator by way of a family friend. I was told that they came with cages and complete setups and that they were no longer wanted, so I could just have them. I should’ve known that meant something wasn’t quite right, but I accepted since I’ve owned Ts in the past and figured that scorps wouldn’t be that much harder to care for. I was expecting four tanks, and instead I was presented with two 5gal tanks. I was initially astonished, so I asked if there was anything else that went with them and I was told that this was it. The woman mentioned that she had never seen the tarantulas web that much in the tank. I took a closer look and realized I had just been given a mated pair…

The female is webbed into a corner of the tank where she can roll the sac up and down while the male appears to be guarding her. He will move around the tank from time to time, seemingly checking on the conditions, then go back to the female’s corner and either sit on the exterior of her webbing or at the base of it. And of course the person who owned them had no idea how to create an arboreal tank setup, and her attempt at a terrestrial setup is abysmal. Maybe an inch of coconut fiber covering the floor. I have never bred Ts before but I don’t really want to destroy her egg sac. I’m also not sure if I should remove the male or let him continue guarding her. I am guessing that the sac is about 2-3 weeks old. The woman said she’s had them for years so I am inclined to think that the Ts were bought as slings or very close to sling age. They’ve lived together this entire time so I don’t know what their aggression levels are towards each other. I don’t intend to let them mate again so I will be placing one of them in a new enclosure once the time is appropriate. Also, the webbing extends to the lid of the enclosure, so I can’t remove the lid without destroying part of her web “cocoon”.

As far as the scorps are concerned, they have a similar, pitiful tank setup. I read the thread about how to make a scorp tank and I will be doing that asap, but I’m not sure if I should keep them together. I’m guessing that they are also male and female due to the size difference, but I don’t know anything about sexing scorpions.

Questions:

Should I remove the male T from the tank now, or wait until later?

Are there any signs that the female T will exhibit when the sac is close to hatching? When should I remove the slings and what is the best way to do that? I will be buying deli cups for them.

What size tank is appropriate for two scorps if I DO keep them together, and if I don’t, do I need to upgrade them to larger individual tanks, or could I just buy another 5gal and separate them?

I have a 40watt “night glo” moonlight lamp that is made by exo-terra. It’s intended for reptiles, but is this appropriate for the scorps?

What kind of heat apparatus should I buy for the scorps? Should I go with side heating or aerial heating?

Any other suggestions or input, including other websites that have good info, would be very much appreciated. I live in North Florida in the panhandle. It’s always humid.

Probably not a good idea to keep the male G. rosea in with the female for long, she may eat him. If they have already mated it's definite to avoid the risk- get him out of there unless you want her to eat him.

People do keep emperors together commonly, but I don't have too much experience with them or other scorps besides the C. hentzi I sometimes keep when the mood strikes me (they can be found in my yard, lol). When I was much much younger I did have a trio that were all housed in a 10 gallon without issue- they even bred with cheesy black light on all the time and everything. I'm sure now that it was less than optimal, it's just my scorp-uninformed empirical experience being relayed to you. I do see them all the time housed together in pet stores and in other hobbyists collections which is I am sure why I thought it was OK as a kid- let's not even get into how many horrible things one may notice in a pet store once one is more informed, but the point is I think as long as they are fed well it isn't as urgent as it might be with the G. rosea pair where the females are known to regularly consume their mates after they have mated for the nutrition boost if they can catch them. If you want to try to re-pair them you probably want to remove him until that time or there is a chance he may be killed.

This website is a great website for info on both of those. Just use the search feature. Being so popular on the market these will be easy to find info on and there are many members who are reliable sources of information here. Generally room temp (25 C) and low light will work for both. Emps like humidity, Rosies not so much.

grayzone · Aug 13, 2012

sweet score lol.. If the sack is indeed fertile (which it likely is if theyve been cohabbing the entire time) I would suggest NOT pulling the male, or if you DO, do so very carefully. You dont want to disturb the female too much while she is guarding the sack .. it MAY become lunch)
If i were you, i would attempt to find out about how long ago the sack was laid. There is a difference between 2 and 3 weeks. Until you have a solid game plan i would recommend asking as many questions you can HERE
reading all you can here > http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?13647-Avicularia-avicularia
and spend some time surfing youtube... Type " tarantula incubator" in the search... also run a search here.
Maybe more experienced Avic breeders can chime in..
Im actually about to pair my female A. avic in the next day or two

BTW, can you post some pics of the setups? Maybe the tarantulas as well?

---------- Post added 08-13-2012 at 12:13 PM ----------

and when i said to NOT pull the male , i COULD be wrong.. At this point tho, i think the female would/could be very defensive to an intruding hand and that she would be VERY stressed by IT, and a desperately scrambling male
WHO CARES if she eats the male, the babies are whats important IMO

Tarac · Aug 13, 2012

grayzone said:
sweet score lol.. If the sack is indeed fertile (which it likely is if theyve been cohabbing the entire time) I would suggest NOT pulling the male, or if you DO, do so very carefully. You dont want to disturb the female too much while she is guarding the sack .. it MAY become lunch)
If i were you, i would attempt to find out about how long ago the sack was laid. There is a difference between 2 and 3 weeks. Until you have a solid game plan i would recommend asking as many questions you can HERE
reading all you can here > http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?13647-Avicularia-avicularia
and spend some time surfing youtube... Type " tarantula incubator" in the search... also run a search here.
Maybe more experienced Avic breeders can chime in..
Im actually about to pair my female A. avic in the next day or two

BTW, can you post some pics of the setups? Maybe the tarantulas as well?

Wow, I need to take a nap. Strike the Rosie stuff, somehow I translated that Avic avic into G. rosea even after reading and reading it. lol.

Avics are not good communal species in general. Gray is right though, if she did already lay (are you sure? can you see the sac at all? they do make lots of web regardless of whether or not they are brooding) be careful not to bug her much. Might just have to lose the male.

Kaiju · Aug 13, 2012

grayzone said:
sweet score lol.. If the sack is indeed fertile (which it likely is if theyve been cohabbing the entire time) I would suggest NOT pulling the male, or if you DO, do so very carefully. You dont want to disturb the female too much while she is guarding the sack .. it MAY become lunch)
If i were you, i would attempt to find out about how long ago the sack was laid. There is a difference between 2 and 3 weeks. Until you have a solid game plan i would recommend asking as many questions you can HERE
reading all you can here > http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?13647-Avicularia-avicularia
and spend some time surfing youtube... Type " tarantula incubator" in the search... also run a search here.
Maybe more experienced Avic breeders can chime in..
Im actually about to pair my female A. avic in the next day or two

BTW, can you post some pics of the setups? Maybe the tarantulas as well?

My main concern about removing the male is that it will distress the female and cause her to eat the sac. Should I try feeding him at all? I have no idea when they were last fed, although I was told they were fed recently when they were handed over. Going to feed the emps later tonight since I just read up on eating habits and realized they are probably hungry.

I'll post pics later when I get home from work.

grayzone · Aug 13, 2012

^ i was a bit confused lol.. i thought I mis read something.

Anyways, dont just take MY advice as CONCRETE advice. Im sure by nightfall a lot of people will have replied with good info. I would suggest trying to send a PM to members that have posted in the A. avic breeding reports RECENTLY (some are quite old, and members arent always active) and include a link to THIS THREAD in your message. MOST people here are real nice, and love to help when they can.

Congrats on a unintentional sack, and welcome BACK to the hobby

Kaiju · Aug 13, 2012

Here are pics of the T setup. Now that I look more closely, I'm pretty sure they are on sand instead of coco fiber. T_____T

I took pics of the male to give you a better idea of what they look like. His pink toes didn't show up that well in the photos, unfortunately. And the one time I want to take pics she has the sac in a location that isn't really obvious. She rolls the sac up and down this tube of webbing that she made and has only come out once that I've seen. I believe it was to drink water, but this was at night and I didn't want to disturb them by turning on a bright light. The ambient lighting from my bedside lamp wasn't enough to let me see details. Opening the lid would wreck her tube, so I'm probably not going to open it until I plan on removing the sac, at which time I'll remove the male as well.

Kaiju · Aug 13, 2012

This is the scorp setup. I think the bedding is coco fiber under... mulch? Or maybe just all mulch. Going to the pet stores in a few hours to buy a 10gal and rehouse these guys since they look really unhappy, as much as arachnids can exhibit emotion.

grayzone · Aug 13, 2012

damn.. NOTHIN STILL? i was curious to see if anybody else had opinions? I will keep checking back

Again, best of luck Kaiju

Tarac · Aug 14, 2012

I do think I see that sac, there is a less opaque white roundish form. Weird that they have cohabited for so long- other members have tried this with Avicularia and ended up with one T. That is interesting indeed.

I would definitely say more media, I would add some kind of vertical structure for them to use as a hide/web support and I would probably do what Gray said and not bug them until you plan to pull the sac so she doesn't consume it... when that should be I couldn't say since we have no clue when she laid them and since I have no experience with it at all. Where is everyone else's comments?

That media in with the Avics may be vermiculite, that's what it looks like to me in the pictures. That is fine. I use a 50/50 peat moss to vermiculite myself, it's a good consistency for building/burrowing and holds moisture a little better. My Ts didn't seem to like 100% vermiculite as much, I think it is a little loose unless it is overly wet although I know some guys that use vermiculite exclusively which is why I tried it. I noticed they were always on furniture or walls when they were on it so I thought they were avoiding the loose substrate and opted to change out the few I tried it with.

The P. imperator also would use more substrate, they sometimes like to burrow. I'd use the same mix of vermiculite and peat or some other comparable product. As I said, I only have very amateur experience with scorps but I know people like to keep them communally and I never had trouble with mine. Here is a thread about them-

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?90766-Pandinus-Imperator-communal

Try using the search, I'm sure you will find more.

Best of luck with that Avic sac!

Quazgar · Aug 14, 2012

I agree with Grayzone, both in that I'd probably let them be so as to not stress mom out while she has the sack, as well as in the fact I'm not going to guarantee my advice is the best advice. My thinking is, it has worked for them thus far, at least well enough for them to get a sac, that another 2 weeks or so isn't really going to hurt anything. Probably better to let them take care of things on their own than risk destroying what has already been done. Although, if you have the time and patience you can read methods to go ahead and pull the sac early just to go ahead and get it out of there. I've heard of people pulling sacs as soon as a couple of days after they were made. Definitely once it comes time to pull the sac, though, separate the two pink toes and set them into suitable habitats. What I would do for that, since you're getting a 10 for the emps, is I'd set up both the 5's you were given so that they stand on their sides, making them taller. You can find all sorts of pictures and advice on here on how to do that.

ten10balls · Aug 14, 2012

Kaiju said:
On Sunday I came into possession of two “pink toe” tarantulas (fairly sure they are A. avicularia) and two P. imperator by way of a family friend. I was told that they came with cages and complete setups and that they were no longer wanted, so I could just have them. I should’ve known that meant something wasn’t quite right, but I accepted since I’ve owned Ts in the past and figured that scorps wouldn’t be that much harder to care for. I was expecting four tanks, and instead I was presented with two 5gal tanks. I was initially astonished, so I asked if there was anything else that went with them and I was told that this was it. The woman mentioned that she had never seen the tarantulas web that much in the tank. I took a closer look and realized I had just been given a mated pair…

The female is webbed into a corner of the tank where she can roll the sac up and down while the male appears to be guarding her. He will move around the tank from time to time, seemingly checking on the conditions, then go back to the female’s corner and either sit on the exterior of her webbing or at the base of it. And of course the person who owned them had no idea how to create an arboreal tank setup, and her attempt at a terrestrial setup is abysmal. Maybe an inch of coconut fiber covering the floor. I have never bred Ts before but I don’t really want to destroy her egg sac. I’m also not sure if I should remove the male or let him continue guarding her. I am guessing that the sac is about 2-3 weeks old. The woman said she’s had them for years so I am inclined to think that the Ts were bought as slings or very close to sling age. They’ve lived together this entire time so I don’t know what their aggression levels are towards each other. I don’t intend to let them mate again so I will be placing one of them in a new enclosure once the time is appropriate. Also, the webbing extends to the lid of the enclosure, so I can’t remove the lid without destroying part of her web “cocoon”.

As far as the scorps are concerned, they have a similar, pitiful tank setup. I read the thread about how to make a scorp tank and I will be doing that asap, but I’m not sure if I should keep them together. I’m guessing that they are also male and female due to the size difference, but I don’t know anything about sexing scorpions.

Questions:

Should I remove the male T from the tank now, or wait until later?

Are there any signs that the female T will exhibit when the sac is close to hatching? When should I remove the slings and what is the best way to do that? I will be buying deli cups for them.

What size tank is appropriate for two scorps if I DO keep them together, and if I don’t, do I need to upgrade them to larger individual tanks, or could I just buy another 5gal and separate them?

I have a 40watt “night glo” moonlight lamp that is made by exo-terra. It’s intended for reptiles, but is this appropriate for the scorps?

What kind of heat apparatus should I buy for the scorps? Should I go with side heating or aerial heating?

Any other suggestions or input, including other websites that have good info, would be very much appreciated. I live in North Florida in the panhandle. It’s always humid.

I would becareful removing the male if it is on the defence it possibly will attack with out showing any threat posture signs.

Kaiju · Aug 14, 2012

Quazgar said:
I agree with Grayzone, both in that I'd probably let them be so as to not stress mom out while she has the sack, as well as in the fact I'm not going to guarantee my advice is the best advice. My thinking is, it has worked for them thus far, at least well enough for them to get a sac, that another 2 weeks or so isn't really going to hurt anything. Probably better to let them take care of things on their own than risk destroying what has already been done. Although, if you have the time and patience you can read methods to go ahead and pull the sac early just to go ahead and get it out of there. I've heard of people pulling sacs as soon as a couple of days after they were made. Definitely once it comes time to pull the sac, though, separate the two pink toes and set them into suitable habitats. What I would do for that, since you're getting a 10 for the emps, is I'd set up both the 5's you were given so that they stand on their sides, making them taller. You can find all sorts of pictures and advice on here on how to do that.

I was actually planning on tipping the 5s on their sides, now that I have my scorp tank all set up

She has moved the sac into an even more difficult place to photograph, so chances are I won't be able to get a clear pic of it. I guess it's about the size of a ping pong ball. I got ahold of the previous owner's daughter and asked for more details about when they began webbing the corner of the tank and she said she'd call me back.

That scorp tank was a disaster. There was MOLD under the plastic palm tree thing. I doused everything in cleaners and baked the coconut hide before reintroducing them to the new tank. So far one of the scorps is significantly more active than the other, but that may be because I haven't bought them a lamp yet. Those things are surprisingly expensive and I wanted to do a bit more research on brands and stuff. I figure they've lasted this long without a heat lamp, a few more days hopefully won't kill them. And they have humidity now, which should improve their life.

grayzone · Aug 14, 2012

there is no doubt that the eggsack in those photos is of a respectable size.. how many COULD be in it/viable is unknown at this point lol.. Slings dont count till they hit 2i, so dont get your hopes up yet.. Dont worry about more photographs.. it is CLEARLY visible. Save the photos until you decide to pull it, and be sure to take the pics of you carefully opening it as well. Hope you end up with a nice number.

Tarac · Aug 14, 2012

Kaiju said:
So far one of the scorps is significantly more active than the other, but that may be because I haven't bought them a lamp yet. Those things are surprisingly expensive and I wanted to do a bit more research on brands and stuff. I figure they've lasted this long without a heat lamp, a few more days hopefully won't kill them. And they have humidity now, which should improve their life.

How cold is your house?

Kaiju · Aug 16, 2012

I have the thermostat set just above 80, so the coldest it ever gets is probably 75, and that's at night. I think I found a clip-on lamp fixture that I like, but I'm still reading about bulbs.

zonbonzovi · Aug 16, 2012

This probably goes without saying but should those eggs be viable you may want to hold on to them until you can ensure that mom & pop are of the same "flavor". Lord knows we have enough confusion with Avicularia as it is.

You can certainly allow them to hatch with mom, just make sure pop's rehoused and there are no gaps for the offspring to sneak through...some Lane Bryant sized panty hose(or similar) placed over the business portion of enclosure will help in that regard.

Ivymike1973 · Aug 16, 2012

Kaiju said:
I have the thermostat set just above 80, so the coldest it ever gets is probably 75, and that's at night. I think I found a clip-on lamp fixture that I like, but I'm still reading about bulbs.

I ususlly get my heat lamps from the hardware store as it is usually cheaper than the pet store. A basic red or infrared bulb is fine. The wattage depends on the setup but you will want to run it through a thermostat so you don't cook them if the temp gets too high.
Did you set the enclosure up as suggested in the thread on this site?
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?11336-Basic-emperor-scorpion-(P.-imperator)-care.

Sexing Emps is pretty easy usually as well.
If you post pics of the area above the pectines we could most likely sex them.

Do you have any pics of the new enclosure setup?

Tarac · Aug 17, 2012

Kaiju said:
I have the thermostat set just above 80, so the coldest it ever gets is probably 75, and that's at night. I think I found a clip-on lamp fixture that I like, but I'm still reading about bulbs.

I'm not sure you need the heat lamp if your house's ambient temperature is between 75-80 all day. 75 for night time temps is pretty warm.

Kaiju · Aug 19, 2012

Ivymike1973 said:
I ususlly get my heat lamps from the hardware store as it is usually cheaper than the pet store. A basic red or infrared bulb is fine. The wattage depends on the setup but you will want to run it through a thermostat so you don't cook them if the temp gets too high.
Did you set the enclosure up as suggested in the thread on this site?
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?11336-Basic-emperor-scorpion-(P.-imperator)-care.

Sexing Emps is pretty easy usually as well.
If you post pics of the area above the pectines we could most likely sex them.

Do you have any pics of the new enclosure setup?

I followed that post, except I used coco fiber instead of peat. Unfortunately their tank is growing a bit of that white, bread-looking mold in random places. Not sure what to do other than change the bedding. I'll post pics of the enclosure once I clean out some of the mold, and I'll post that too.

---------- Post added 08-19-2012 at 04:38 AM ----------

zonbonzovi said:
This probably goes without saying but should those eggs be viable you may want to hold on to them until you can ensure that mom & pop are of the same "flavor". Lord knows we have enough confusion with Avicularia as it is.

You can certainly allow them to hatch with mom, just make sure pop's rehoused and there are no gaps for the offspring to sneak through...some Lane Bryant sized panty hose(or similar) placed over the business portion of enclosure will help in that regard.

I already made an incubator and plan to pull the sac in another week-ish, based upon what I know. That should put the slings at around 30 days, if not more.

Since I'm fairly certain the previous owner bought them at the same time and stuff I would be surprised if they aren't of the same species. The male does look almost black aside from the toes, but maybe he will be more colorful once I get a better look at im.

A. avic? and P. imperator rehousing help!

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