Another DKS thread

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

This is the first time I've dealt with DKS. So I recently received a P. pederseni (10/17/2012) and it just molted yesterday. A couple hours after it molted half of its body started displaying classic DKS behavior. By this morning it had spread to the entire tarantula. It is extremely severe; I am expecting the pederseni to be dead by the time I get home tonight. There were no signs whatsoever prior to the molt. The only reason I started this thread is because I have not heard any reports of a tarantula molting into DKS. I always heard of it developing out of the blue. I thought that it might have been caused by a bad molt, but everything appears normal. No parts were stuck, it wasn't a wet molt, etc. The other tarantulas I received on the same day are fine, but they haven't molted yet. Why would a molt trigger it/cause it?

Thank you,
Sandra

Chris_Skeleton · Nov 5, 2012

Not everything that goes wrong with a T is "DKS".

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

I didn't exactly mean that it is DKS, sorry. I almost mentioned that in my original post. I just meant that everything my tarantula is doing is what has been described as DKS behavior (uncontrollable movements). It might have just been a bad molt, but it's not obvious what went wrong.

And yes, I know DKS is not a real disease.

captmarga · Nov 5, 2012

First off, is it twitching? Or just moving jerkily? How large is it? Is it possible it's a MM now? Give it a few days to harden up... some of mine act a little strange the week after a molt. Make sure it has a water source, and observe.

It could have a problem giving it neurological/motor control issues... or it just may need time to get control of the limbs.

Marga

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

It's essentially dead. Now it's on it's back limply with the occasional jerk. It's a 2" female.

Originally the legs had been stretching backwards and the fangs working mechanically. It didn't have the ability to move anywhere, it was about as severe and fast a transition as you can imagine.

captmarga · Nov 5, 2012

Sounds like it had some kind of trauma, and possible fluid leak. I'd still be checking for anything that looks like a rupture. Somewhere along the way, something went wrong in the molt. SO sorry.

Marga

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

I checked all over, no rupture or anything. I looked at the joints and they appear fine.

---------- Post added 11-05-2012 at 07:06 PM ----------

Here are videos:

[video=youtube;v6-R1JCjHWE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6-R1JCjHWE[/video]

[video=youtube;K5CR9E7CZ84]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CR9E7CZ84&feature=youtu.be[/video]

captmarga · Nov 5, 2012

Hopefully someone else who has seen similar can help... but it seems possible it was very dehydrated. That's the usual cause of something like this, and even for a pokie, seemed to have a small abdomen.

So sorry.

Marga

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

I had a water bowl in with it, dehydration could be possible I guess though. I can't think of anything else. The small abdomen is because it literally just molted. The fangs are still red.

---------- Post added 11-05-2012 at 07:51 PM ----------

Thank you for your help.

concrete · Nov 5, 2012

Damn that looks brutal. Poor thing.

Rabid538 · Nov 5, 2012

concrete said:
Damn that looks brutal. Poor thing.

I know, right?

It just had to be a female too.

cmcghee358 · Nov 5, 2012

Rabid538 said:
I checked all over, no rupture or anything. I looked at the joints and they appear fine.

---------- Post added 11-05-2012 at 07:06 PM ----------

Here are videos:

[video=youtube;v6-R1JCjHWE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6-R1JCjHWE[/video]

[video=youtube;K5CR9E7CZ84]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5CR9E7CZ84&feature=youtu.be[/video]

I don't see any reason why this couldn't be classified as DKS as we perceive it.

Also am I the only one that has seen a correlation between DKS behavior following a recent molt?

It's almost(very weak hypothesis) that the thin/soft/porous exuvium allows some sort of contaminant into the nervous system? Or perhaps that outer waxy film seals the tarantula from such exposure(the name of the wax escapes me and my TKG is a bit too far to reach)

goodoldneon · Nov 6, 2012

Ugh - that made for some difficult viewing. It was not unlike the way a hornet (for example) reacts after being sprayed with insecticide. My guess would be some sort of catastrophic neurological breakdown of some sort.

Whatever the cause, I'm sorry for your loss.

Aarantula · Nov 6, 2012

Wow, sorry to see what's happened to your T.

It defenitly is experiencing involuntary movement like I've never seen before. From viewing your videos I don't think it's DKS but a rather neurotic issue that was more than likely brought on during the molting process. From what we've all seen, DKS is more like a slow crawing movement with no control of what leg goes first. Your T is erractic and doesn't seem to know what's going on. Someone else mentioned that its acting as another insect would behave after coming into contact with pesticide. Is there any chance it was exposed to anything that could cause a T problems while it was in the soft fragile state after the molt? Maybe a perfume, air freshener of sorts? Or by any chance was it fed anything prior to the molt that was found outside that may have come into contact with a pesticide?

Shrike · Nov 6, 2012

Aarantula said:
From viewing your videos I don't think it's DKS but a rather neurotic issue

What exactly is DKS, other than a very loosely defined "syndrome" comprised of a range of symptoms that nobody knows the cause of?

Rabid538 · Nov 6, 2012

No chance of it coming in contact with any contaminant. No dogs or cats go in my room, no cleaning chemicals, no perfume. It was on a bookshelf surrounded by my dozens of other T's and I've never had a single death or bad molt prior to this. It wasn't fed anything different and it had the same substrate I always use.

Aarantula · Nov 6, 2012

Shrike said:
What exactly is DKS, other than a very loosely defined "syndrome" comprised of a range of symptoms that nobody knows the cause of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyskinesia

Shrike · Nov 6, 2012

Aarantula said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyskinesia

Does this wikipedia page have anything to do with tarantulas? If so, then I've got a possible diagnosis for you Rabid. Your tarantula may be suffering side effects from the antipsychotic drug Haldol. The classic symptoms include tremors and writhing movements of the body and limbs but is also seen in the face and mouth in the form of 'tongue rolling'. It may also involve involuntary lip smacking, repetitive pouting of the lips and tongue protrusions. Is your tarantula exhibiting any of these symptoms?

cmcghee358 · Nov 7, 2012

Shrike said:
What exactly is DKS, other than a very loosely defined "syndrome" comprised of a range of symptoms that nobody knows the cause of?

Exactly my point. Being that the causation, and even the true definition of the symptoms are vague at best, you would think that DKS being used to describe videos like this would be MORE prevelant.

It irks me that people lament that the term DKS is overused, but then point out that it isn't truly defined. So therefore, based on this video, and the fact that the pathology or symptoms of DKS hasn't been defined in ANY clinical sense; I would say THIS is DKS. So the ball is in YOUR court, using the loose definition of DKS, to disprove that THIS spider meets the criteria.

/rant

Shrike · Nov 7, 2012

Shrike, what is best in life?

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations about DKS."

I'll admit, rampant use of the term does amuse me a bit. My original comment was really directed at the following statement:

I don't think it's DKS but a rather neurotic issue that was more than likely brought on during the molting process

My point is that if the term is so loosely defined and applied so widely, how can it be ruled out with such confidence?

But let me advance an alternative hypothesis that might apply in some cases: dehydration. I had a male GBB that displayed so called DKS symptoms following its penultimate molt (spastic movement, dragging legs, etc). Immediate treatment in an ICU brought the spider back to full health. I believe that inadequate internal hemolymph pressure as a result of dehydration was to blame for the symptoms, not an obscure syndrome.

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