Parasitized H. carolinensis--help?

jecraque · Dec 9, 2012

I've been keeping a subadult female H. carolinensis for about two months, since I found her outside as the weather started to get chilly. She burrows, so I don't see her much, and she used to come out to eat at night until about two weeks ago. I assumed she was about to molt to adulthood and let her be.

I shone a flashlight in underneath her container just to check if she was still alive, and it looks like she is still mobile and not paralyzed, but she's got a crazy grub-of-doom hitching a ride a la this poor Leucauge: www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_aHOnyXIOI

I'm assuming it's a wasp. WhaddoIdo? Dig her up and try to get the thing off? Let nature take its course? Panic and flail about? Any advice is much appreciated...

ShredderEmp · Dec 9, 2012

I would pull it off no matter what, but thats only if I saw it on my scorpion or crabs, as I don't keep spiders.

Malhavoc's · Dec 9, 2012

Pulling it off would be fatal as it attaches itself to the ube heart in most spiders. I know of no treatment that is useable against these type of parasites, it is fatal. Sorry.

jecraque · Dec 9, 2012

Malhavoc's said:
Pulling it off would be fatal as it attaches itself to the ube heart in most spiders.

Thanks for the info--do you know if they usually attach with mouthparts or otherwise?
That's bad news--I was excited about this one. my first carolinensis after many successful aspersas and Rabidosa spp.

If it were you, would you euthanize (in the freezer) or just let her get eaten?

Malhavoc's · Dec 9, 2012

if I recall correctly, they attach via mouth part by cutting a small hole into the tub heart (hence the placement on the abdo) they then bgin to drain the fluids of the spider until detatching and pupating, in theory, if there is no internal damage beyond the direct incision into the heart, with steady hand you could attempt removal then closing the wound with nuskin, or superglue etc. but I would not hae a high prognosis of suvival..

Me? I would let the wasp run its coarse as nature fascinates me and I know the difficulty of trying to remove such a parasite, why end two lives?

The Snark · Dec 9, 2012

While I love our spiders of which we are often inundated, we have lots of wasps and at any given time, a few mud constructions which almost always have a few doomed spiders installed. Accept natural selection while keeping in mind, human intervention has so far proven to usually be worse than letting nature take it's course. On a positive note, when I have cracked open the mud dungeons of doom, way over 90% of the victims are immature males. It's sad when a mature female goes south, but oh well.

Malhavoc's · Dec 9, 2012

jecraque said:
Thanks for the info--do you know if they usually attach with mouthparts or otherwise?
That's bad news--I was excited about this one. my first carolinensis after many successful aspersas and Rabidosa spp.

If it were you, would you euthanize (in the freezer) or just let her get eaten?

I wanted to add something, Parasitic wasps are very uniue from their venom to their behaviors, they also are not very well known in comparison to other creatures, If you do let it run its coarse, photos, and notes will go a long way, you could even hand them over to a college/ university which would probably be thankful as the life cycle of parasites is hard to document.

jecraque · Dec 9, 2012

Thanks again. I likely will do just that but unfortunately it may be a little late for thorough documentation. The larvae is nearly half the size of the spider's opisthosoma at this point so it may be later on in the life cycle. Kicking myself for not noticing sooner, not that it would have done any good. Poor thing gets moved out of the T room for sure, though...

Ciphor · Dec 10, 2012

You could try holding her down with something (forceps maybe) and use a heated up object to touch parasite and see if it releases.

Just a shot in the dark, don't know what would happen.

jecraque · Dec 10, 2012

Pictures here:

http://klimp.dk/glown/wasp3.jpg
http://klimp.dk/glown/wasp2.jpg
http://klimp.dk/glown/wasp1.jpg

Ciphor · Dec 10, 2012

What a juicy one too.

I would still try a hot object on parasite with spider gently pinned down. I think if you leave it the spider will eventually die anyway.

The Snark · Dec 10, 2012

Ciphor said:
What a juicy one too.

I would still try a hot object on parasite with spider gently pinned down. I think if you leave it the spider will eventually die anyway.

Providing one has deft fingers, the sharp tip of a small soldering iron would be about perfect.

jecraque · Dec 10, 2012

I don't know, it seems like she's in pretty bad shape, and it would be kind of a waste... That's one heck of a bruise, for lack of a better term. My students are all petitioning for me to try to save it, even the arachnophobes--they remember seeing the orchard spider clip on Life in the Undergrowth while I was out with a sub one day. I think it might be an interesting process to try to observe in the classroom, as guilty as that makes me feel.

I did see a paper today that described removing such things from araneids with a few gentle tugs, even with the spider in the web and even on the last evening before the larvae kill them (apparently you could tell it was their last night because they spun a little awning to protect the larva from rainstorms while cocooned, rather than spinning their nightly orb web).

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 10:55 PM ----------

Come to think of it I also read a paper today on parasites artificially inducing overwintering behaviors. I have to wonder if that was the reason for the confinement to her burrow nearly the entire time I've had her. Not that she'd be wrong to overwinter now, but in an 80° spider room that's often lit up for longer than daylight hours I'd expect she'd have her signals messed up a little.

Ciphor · Dec 11, 2012

jecraque said:
I don't know, it seems like she's in pretty bad shape, and it would be kind of a waste... That's one heck of a bruise, for lack of a better term. My students are all petitioning for me to try to save it, even the arachnophobes--they remember seeing the orchard spider clip on Life in the Undergrowth while I was out with a sub one day. I think it might be an interesting process to try to observe in the classroom, as guilty as that makes me feel.

I did see a paper today that described removing such things from araneids with a few gentle tugs, even with the spider in the web and even on the last evening before the larvae kill them (apparently you could tell it was their last night because they spun a little awning to protect the larva from rainstorms while cocooned, rather than spinning their nightly orb web).

---------- Post added 12-10-2012 at 10:55 PM ----------

Come to think of it I also read a paper today on parasites artificially inducing overwintering behaviors. I have to wonder if that was the reason for the confinement to her burrow nearly the entire time I've had her. Not that she'd be wrong to overwinter now, but in an 80° spider room that's often lit up for longer than daylight hours I'd expect she'd have her signals messed up a little.

I would save the spider, but that's just me

It's possible the parasite has chemically triggered an over-winter type behavior, but I think far more likely the spider is hiding in its hole because it is weakened and vulnerable from the attack.

Legion09 · Dec 12, 2012

The scientist in me says to attempt the removal for learning purposes and post the results. Attempt to have one of your students take numerous photos of the procedure as well and have it documented. ^_^

nzcookie · Dec 12, 2012

we already know the spider will die if you leave it, yet could we perhaps find and effective way/ rule out ways of removing parasites like this?? i think you would be better of learning if there is an effective way of removing these for all of us??

i say try removal and see if it works or not, definately record what happens!!

Ciphor · Dec 12, 2012

Legion09 said:
The scientist in me says to attempt the removal for learning purposes and post the results. Attempt to have one of your students take numerous photos of the procedure as well and have it documented. ^_^

I would try and remove parasite then feed it to the spider lol. Ultimate victory!

Galapoheros · Dec 12, 2012

It may be too late to try, but I would've gotten very pointed scissors, the highest magnifying reading glasses out there(those are nice AND cheap btw, great for this kind of thing) and cut right behind the head of that parasite, if not closer. Then soon, maybe the next day, I would've tried to knock the head off the abdomen after muscles in the small head had weakened ...however it's attached anyway.

Insektzuchen · Dec 12, 2012

I'm in agreement with those who suggest attempting to save the spider by destroying the parasite. However, I would use one of two methods. Blow out a lit match and touch the hot match head to the grub's body. The grub's response will probably be to disengage from the spider. Or you can take a small gauge syringe, insert it into the grub and suck out its bodily fluids, killing it. Then I'd just let the grub dry up and fall off the spider. As a last resort, just feed off the spider and grub to a hungry centipede. Whatever you decide, take lots of photos and post them here.

The Snark · Dec 12, 2012

Well, if we're going off the deep end anyway. I'd be very curios what the effects of epinephrine would be on the parasite. Being a vasoconstrictant it could possibly cut off the blood supply to it and make it give up. That would retard hemorrhaging in the spider as well. Errm. Just trot on down to the local cooperative dentist and as for Lidocaine with epi. The get a insulin syringe and the smallest needle available. The lidocaine would knock the critter on it's arse but the epi would keep it from invading the spider. Sort of parasite euthanasia with beneficial side trimmings..

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