Heatpads on the bottom will cook your scorps!!

You hear this all the time and i'm guessing most people state it because that's what everyone else says....but i'm interested. How many people have actually experienced a scorpion dying because it cooked itself due to a heat pad on the bottom....I have basking lights in some of my enclosures and it's not uncommon to see scorps basking under the hottest part of the beam, especially gravid and pre moult desert species. I also have other enclosures with large heatpads (20 watts) placed on the back wall and again it's common to notice some species laying up against that wall. My point is that scorpions are obviously well aware of the direction of heat and move to and from it as desired.
The usual argument is that scorps are dumb animals that burrow down to get away from heat and because of their low intelligence, don't have the savvy to realise it's getting hotter as they burrow down..hence, they cook or die of dehydration........but do they?? .. and as we all know, not all scorpions burrow.

A heatpad placed on a side will give a slight heat gradient with it being hotter by the pad and cooler away from it giving them the chance to choose their positioning. Yet, as we all know, heatpads don't give of a huge amount of heat and i speculate whether or not a heatpad on the bottom would do no more than give a diffuse warmth across the entire groundplan of the enclosure.

Agreed..it's unnatural that burrowing species would experience increasing temperatures as it burrowed down and under those circumstances i wouldn't have a heatpad on the bottom simply because it would go against from my purist approach....but for non burrowing species, would a heatpad on the bottom be so disastrous?

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?
Has anyone actually experienced a scorp dying because of a heatpad on the bottom?
Will anyone go against the grain and admit to have used/using a heatpad on the bottom without any ill consequences?

Regards
Den.

I doubt that anyone can say that his specimen died because of this particular placement of a heat mat, simply because even if a specimen died and the heat mat was placed like so, the implication that this was the cause is still open

So as you already stated it is a matter of trying to rebuild natural habitat and therefore natural behavior (it's to warm, the scorpions seeks shelter underneath something or by burrowing and not by coming out of the shelter or the substrate). But I too highly doubt that placing a heat mat under the tank will cause any damage to the animal - at least if the wattage is properly chosen and not too high anyway.

But as for your last question: At least in the german boards I got the impression that this placement is a common (and ill advised) instruction novice keepers get in pet shops and so on, so there will be enough people that should be able to admit it - the question is whether they are in this board and whether they want to admit it.

Regards
Finn

I was ill advised by a local reptile shop and the tarantula and scorpion book I had when I bought my first emperor scorpions over 10 years ago. They were kept in a glass tank, with a thin layer of peat substrate and a heat mat on the bottom. Looking back, people would of gone mental if I had posted pictures of it on a forum. At the time though, I didn't know any better until I read Manny Rubios book a few months later (had no internet back then).

Anyway, the scorpions were never fried, one of the females even gave birth and successfully raised around 15 babies. Once I had learnt how they should be kept, they were moved in to more suitable accommodation.

Since becoming more 'educated' I now know that it isn't natural for scorpions to experience heat coming from under the ground, and so I don't advocate using mats underneath enclosures.

I too have never had a scorpion die from a heat mat underneath, only read about it. But I took the warning more seriously when I received a couple of centipedes in the mail. I put each one in a gallon, plastic container, they both dug to the bottom. I put one on an old speaker cabinet and the other on an aquarium fluorescent light that was turned on while I set up a couple of terrariums for them. It was a long time ago, I think I finished in about an hour, put one in the terr, then I grabbed the other off the light fixture. It was warm on the bottom and the centipede was still on the bottom, dead, no evidence of it trying to avoid the heat by moving up and away from it, it was weird to me. I understand it's not proof, not even a scorpion, but enough of a clue for me to avoid placement underneath.

Hey Callum, i trust your animals are keeping well.. Ok, so your point is heatpads on the bottom = unrealistic environment.....and i'd agree with that to a point, especially for burrowing species. Yet, what of arboreal species ala bark scorpions. Would the heat they experience not be diffused as in all around them as opposed to just coming from one direction and wouldn't that be similar to a heatpad on the bottom of an enclosure that heats the entire groundplan (assuming the heatpad covers the entire groundplan). The substrate would be warmed up (amount depending on substrate thickness i would imagine) and by convection then the air above it, giving an end result of a general ambient warmth within the enclosure. How would that be different to it's natural environment? .. I've actually been in a jungle environment and i experienced it as being damn hot at ground level yet cooler at height. I used to actually climb trees to cool down when i could get away with it...Those conditions would be replicated quite well i would have thought by placing a heatpad on the bottom.

@Finn .. I've read a few of those as well plus i remember even reading one guy sticking by his guns and defending his choice of heatpad placement (on the bottom) stating he had raised xx amount of bark scorpions like this and never had any problems and even argued that it was his opinion that they thrived better under those conditions..I also remember he was trashed for his conviction!

@Galapoheros .. Hm, interesting...yet that was a centipede....Would that still apply to arboreal scorpions.

It's interesting.....We read all the time "Don't put heatpads on the bottom!" and it always seems to be assumed this covers all species with no exceptions, yet are we sure this is totally correct? .. or is it a regurgitated myth that now has reached status as lore...

Hello, they certainly are. How are the P. kraepelini doing?

Well, I can't argue with that. Although in the confined space of a tank, the heat rising may create a hot zone at the top? I'm just guessing. I've never actually tried this out.

We could also go in to terrestrial desert species that may experience cold air temperatures at night but the ground, that has absorbed heat during the hot daytime, continues to radiate warmth in to the evening. Turning of the above or side heating and switching to a mat underneath the enclosure for a few hours at night would recreate this. But then I may just be being pedantic.............:biggrin:

Using a mat at the side heats the air and also provides a thermal gradient across the enclosure which ticks the right boxes for me but I can completely see where you are coming from in regards to bark scorpions/ arboreal species.

callum b said:

Hello, they certainly are. How are the P. kraepelini doing?

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Yeh, their doing great mate...and thankfully the last moulted out to a female...phew .. they certainly are some feisty chaps and it's impressive how inquisitive they are...When i'm gently doing enclosure maintenance they almost always dart back and forth, checking out whats going on...and the way they "clap" with their chela when their communicating "go away" always gets a chuckle from me.

callum b said:

Well, I can't argue with that. Although in the confined space of a tank, the heat rising may create a hot zone at the top? I'm just guessing. I've never actually tried this out.

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I don't think so, not unless it was insulated in some way and as most use either plastic containers with holes in the top or glass enclosures with ventilation in the top then heat build up would be minimal...and in any case it would be no different from a heatpad placed on the side. The heat would still rise whether from the bottom or side....but as i mentioned, heatpads don't really give of that much heat so even if there was heat build up at the top, i wouldn't imagine it would be anything to worry about.

callum b said:

We could also go in to terrestrial desert species that may experience cold air temperatures at night but the ground, that has absorbed heat during the hot daytime, continues to radiate warmth in to the evening. Turning of the above or side heating and switching to a mat underneath the enclosure for a few hours at night would recreate this. But then I may just be being pedantic.............:biggrin:

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Interesting thought .. and for us purists maybe something to consider..

callum b said:

Using a mat at the side heats the air and also provides a thermal gradient across the enclosure which ticks the right boxes for me

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I hear you, although my point centers around if this is the case in every situation. Plus just how dangerous is it to place a heatpad at the bottom for both arboreal species and semi arboreal jungle species .. plus as you rightly pointed out, hot desert species.

A casual passerby could mistake this forum for a Pandinus, Heterometrus troubleshooting forum and it's mostly in connection with these species we hear "Don't place heatpads on the bottom" crop up again and again...yet the question isn't confined to these species. I, and i'm sure many others have also read it in connection with many other species. I'd just like to hear what the general consensus is with regards to those other species and if possible, backed up with either first hand experience or an intelligent argument...

I'm not convinced that paragraph 13 of the heatpad law is fully justified..

callum b said:

We could also go in to terrestrial desert species that may experience cold air temperatures at night but the ground, that has absorbed heat during the hot daytime, continues to radiate warmth in to the evening.

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Actually Callum, that was the first thing I thought about when I started reading this thread.

Olsin said:

callum b said:

Turning of the above or side heating and switching to a mat underneath the enclosure for a few hours at night would recreate this. But then I may just be being pedantic.............:biggrin:

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Interesting thought .. and for us purists maybe something to consider..

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I'd be careful about doing this though, depending on your substrate of choice. Many people choose to use Excavator Clay in some proportion for burrowing desert species, but there is a warning on the package about not using it with an under-the-tank heater due to excessive heat build up.

Sorry, I've always had a problem getting impatient when reading at times, I missed that you were referring to arboreal species. No, I don't think a pad on the bottom would be a prob for non-burrowing species ..imo. Also, maybe I missed this somewhere too, but for people that want to lower temps at some time of the day/night, I have put the heaters on a timer but you have to anticipate the time it takes for them to heat areas up, timers are pretty cheap.

It's also an incredibly moronic thing to do considering scorpions burrow to escape heat... if you're trying to keep them unstressed, alive, and healthy as possible, why are you doing it in the first place?

callum b said:

We could also go in to terrestrial desert species that may experience cold air temperatures at night but the ground, that has absorbed heat during the hot daytime, continues to radiate warmth in to the evening. Turning of the above or side heating and switching to a mat underneath the enclosure for a few hours at night would recreate this. But then I may just be being pedantic.............:biggrin:
.

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But do you really recreate this condition with a heat pack underneath the enclosure? I don't think so. Therefore you have to know how deep in the natural habitat which temperature the substrate conserve an how long. Then the temperature have to decrease frequently the night. So it's really unrealistic to recreate a perfect environment, but a heat mat as normal heat source underneath is in my opinion so most unrealistical option. I also heard about overheating a heat mat if both sides of the mat is cover for example with the table and on the otherside with the enclosure.

@Vespers .. The thing is though we're mainly talking about arboreal and semi arboreal species plus non burrowing desert species. It's already been agreed upon that placing a heatpad on the bottom of an enclosure for burrowing species is both unrealistic and potentially dangerous.

@Galapoheros .. Correct. Substrate depth would also be a deciding factor in determining the time it took for the substrate to heat up. Ideally there would be an overlap where a heatpad placed on the bottom would be enabled maybe an hour (or whatever) before the side heatpad was switched off..The bottom heatpad then could run for a x amount of hours before it to was switched of leaving the enclosure to cool down naturally before the side heatpad was switched on again in the morning...That could be a potential setup for some Hottentotta/Androctonus species plus a few Vaejovids to name a few.......although i'm assuming only diehard purists would go to those lengths in an attempt to replicate a natural heating environment.

@gromgrom .. Chuckles...you haven't read the thread through have you .. as an example, do Centruroides bicolor burrow to escape heat?

@KDiiX .. I'm not quite sure exactly what you point is but i'd disagree with you that a heatpad on the bottom is unrealistic in all instances. Some yes, but not all. As i mentioned earlier i've experienced a jungle environment (Belize) where it was much hotter at ground level than it was just 5 or 10 meters up from the ground. Arboreal species living in those types of conditions would presumably experience it the same. Therefore a heatpad on the bottom would recreate that kind of environment much more realistically than one placed on the side insomuch a scorp would have to move horizontally to escape heat whereas if the heatpad was placed on the bottom it could move vertically. This would mimic those kind of conditions that arboreal species from hot semi humid environments find themselves in.......theoretically

The short and tall of this thread is simply to try and focus in on whether or not heatpads on the bottom of enclosures deserves it's reputation of, to quote gromgrom "moronic". Especially when we take into consideration that NOT all scorpions burrow to escape heat and that some scorpions do actually come from environments where the ground level is quite hot...As a single example...S.mesaensis makes scrapes under stones to escape the sun yet it comes from an area where the sand can get quite hot (who's not been to the coast and experienced the sand you walk on being very warm while the air around your head is much cooler!). Agreed the temperature under the stone would most likely be cooler than the surrounding sand but would it not still be quite warm to the touch? Plus, wouldn't S.mesaensis also experience warmth from beneath as opposed to warmth from above?

Olsin said:

@Vespers .. The thing is though we're mainly talking about arboreal and semi arboreal species plus non burrowing desert species. It's already been agreed upon that placing a heatpad on the bottom of an enclosure for burrowing species is both unrealistic and potentially dangerous.

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The comments I quoted and responded to (as did you) were Callum directly and quite obviously talking about terrestrial desert scorpions...

Olsin said:

The short and tall of this thread is simply to try and focus in on whether or not heatpads on the bottom of enclosures deserves it's reputation of, to quote gromgrom "moronic". Especially when we take into consideration that NOT all scorpions burrow to escape heat and that some scorpions do actually come from environments where the ground level is quite hot...As a single example...S.mesaensis makes scrapes under stones to escape the sun yet it comes from an area where the sand can get quite hot (who's not been to the coast and experienced the sand you walk on being very warm while the air around your head is much cooler!). Agreed the temperature under the stone would most likely be cooler than the surrounding sand but would it not still be quite warm to the touch? Plus, wouldn't S.mesaensis also experience warmth from beneath as opposed to warmth from above?

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This exactly the kind of thing we were talking about in those previous posts.

vespers said:

I'd be careful about doing this though, depending on your substrate of choice. Many people choose to use Excavator Clay in some proportion for burrowing desert species, but there is a warning on the package about not using it with an under-the-tank heater due to excessive heat build up.

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Smiles .. then that makes this initial sentence rather redundant as we're not discussing burrowing scorpions. But listen, it's not a competition and it's not about finding faults. It's about discussing the pros and cons of placing a heatpad on the bottom of an enclosure and if the catchall caption of "don't place heatpads on the bottom" is justified in all contexts.

Just wanted to say that I have not read though all the post on here. But wanted to give my input, before joining AB I had two juvs (3i or 4i) emperors die on me I had them in cocofiber and they had tunneled towards the heatpad, which I had placed at the bottom. They were both very hot and very dead when I found them. But I was newb so there were possibly other factors involved. Right now I have an undertank heatpad for my T.stigmurus since they do not burrow and I have the humidity and heat perfectly where I want it for optimal growth. Have had them there for a few months now and no deaths, and all of them have molted successfully at least once. So for barks it’s probably not too bad, but if I wouldn’t recommend it at all for burrowing species.

I was flamed ages ago for having a setup with undertank heating. I had a cupboard with grooves in the shelves and bottom, so that the heat cables fitted in these grooves only heated about 1/3 of the glass enclosures.....This work fine, but not with burrowing species, who tended to dig towards the heat. Worked fine with non-burrowers.....

For a lot of my enclosures I have the heating mat placed on the bottom (given appropriate spacing and so on) and I've never had a problem to date.

Seems like a misdiagnosis of an unfortunate situation to me.

~Abyss~ said:

Right now I have an undertank heatpad for my T.stigmurus since they do not burrow and I have the humidity and heat perfectly where I want it for optimal growth. Have had them there for a few months now and no deaths, and all of them have molted successfully at least once.

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Excellent .. I was hoping to read something like this and it does make sense. I mean, why would an under tank heater not be ok for arboreal species. As long as it doesn't get crazy hot. Thanks for your input Abyss.

Michiel said:

I was flamed ages ago for having a setup with undertank heating. I had a cupboard with grooves in the shelves and bottom, so that the heat cables fitted in these grooves only heated about 1/3 of the glass enclosures.....This work fine, but not with burrowing species, who tended to dig towards the heat. Worked fine with non-burrowers.....

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Coming from you to Michiel that's as near to an official justification as we're likely to get. Thanks for chirping up

Yehecatl Quipol said:

For a lot of my enclosures I have the heating mat placed on the bottom (given appropriate spacing and so on) and I've never had a problem to date. Seems like a misdiagnosis of an unfortunate situation to me.

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Thanks Yehecatl .. Thats 3 for 3 and in my mind conclusive enough....These kinds of misdiagnosis are quite prevalent in the hobby. Someone states an opinion, that opinion isn't challenged and then before you know it, it becomes law and anyone not adhering to it is a fool.

So, a heatpad on the bottom for arboreal and non burrowing species is not moronic and in fact seems to work very well. Maybe we can put this fallacy to rest now and instead of automatically advising anyone to put heatpads on the side regardless of specie, add the clause that it's specie specific..as in burrowers = no .. non burrowers = ok.

Thanks everyone for you collective input. :wink:

Olsin said:

@gromgrom .. Chuckles...you haven't read the thread through have you .. as an example, do Centruroides bicolor burrow to escape heat?

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No, I dont think I need to, and no, they dont. But I obviously wasn't referring to bark scorpions, but burrowers.

gromgrom said:

It's also an incredibly moronic thing to do considering scorpions burrow to escape heat... if you're trying to keep them unstressed, alive, and healthy as possible, why are you doing it in the first place?

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It's all over now bar the fireworks and obligatory kiss on the cheek from some pretty stranger gromgrom so no need to get upset...besides, i've got to laugh. Explain to me exactly where in the above text you are "obviously" not referring to anything other than scorpions in general...and not needing to read a thread before commenting is going to see you with egg on your face more often than not .. just saying mate