Will captive breeding save T's?

minax

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I am wondering about some peoples view points, on the issue of captive breeding. A lot of breeders, and hobbyists............believe that captive breeding of threatened species, will save them from extinction, because of various factors. I guess everyone knows by now, that habitat destruction is the main threat to any species. But...............will captive breeding be enough to save the species? It looks like an easy answer............but many experts in the field,( Breene, Marshall) are very concerned and frustrated as to the methods of collection. They believe many species have been already compromised, as to their genetic purity.

Apparently, many collectors in the field, will not give out even vague data as to where said species has been collected, as they worry about competition finding the T's, and lessening their monetary gain, while not even considering the ramifications of cross breeding, and clouding up a bloodline. Breene has said, "We may reach a point, (perhaps we already have) where all these captive animals can be i.d.'ed only to genus, with no shot at at the species level". He was speaking of P.murinus, in this instance. This could turn out to be a nightmare for the preservation of any T's, as far as keeping a species pure and true in it's genetic bloodline. We could end up with a bunch of cross breeds, eventually, with no resemblance to the true type species representative, in some cases.

This has happened to H. gigas, and Brachypelma in some cases as well. Even Aphonopelma has potentialy been threatened in this way. In some cases, it is obvious, that living in captivity, is the only chance of preserving certain species. But..............what is everyones opinions? Do you think the hobby will have the chance to save some species.................when loss of habitat makes this the only chance of survival, for many species, and we can be sure, more will be dependant in the very near future. Or............do you think that, in some cases, the species I.D.ing will not exist, and they will simply be reduced to i.d.ing at the genus levels?
 

Rourke

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I believe that the possibility of "saving" a species is used by many who keep exotic pets as an internal rationalization for keeping something that they know deep down they shouldn't have any need to keep. This doesn't stop me from keeping spiders, herps, fish, etc. Call me cynical.
 

minax

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Yes...............

I agree............in some ways, with your statement.............good point. I do think, as well, that some people use the rationalization of "Saving the species", for monetary or selfish reasons. This really hurts the hobby, not having a long range vision, as to what they are doing to a said species, or bloodline, and just being concerned about the bottom line, when I think the animals well being should be the most important thing.
 

reverendsterlin

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a very large gap between "save the species" and "save the species in it's natural environment". Breeding can save the species but habitat encroachment will eliminate most species from the wild eventually, mankind is an unstoppable plague.
Rev
 

Mister Internet

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reverendsterlin said:
mankind is an unstoppable plague.
Rev
Mankind has produced, destroyed, built up, and torn down... we are history's result, and the earth's crowning jewel. We are the most highly developed species, the ultimate alpha predator, and the only creatures with enough simultaneous intelligence and stupidity to feel guilt about the fact that we were designed to exist exactly where we do... right at the top of the damn food chain.

I don't have any patience for people who wantt to bemoan the sad state of the "human virus". The Earth is fine. It was here before we arrived, and it will be here if the whole human race manages to kill itself. If someone truly feels the need to refer to themselves as a plague or virus upon the earth's surface, then any rational person knows what should be done to viral organisms... I'd suggest those people take the appropriate steps.

On topic, I think I agree with Mr. Rourke, who has quite likely made the most insightful first post ever. It's a buzz phrase that hobbyists like to throw around to justify bashing PETA, but deep down, no one really BELIEVES that we're going to produce 500,000 P. metallica in captivity. No one has the facilities to produce at that level... I would say the entire hobby combined can't produce at a level to re-introduce into the wild. Possibly the only thing I will ever agree with rev on is his distinction between the two states of conservation, which is logical and true. We can keep a species line going, but the sheer number required to re-populate a natural habitat would be staggering and impossible.
 

Tony

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Mr. Rourke said:
I believe that the possibility of "saving" a species is used by many who keep exotic pets as an internal rationalization for keeping something that they know deep down they shouldn't have any need to keep. This doesn't stop me from keeping spiders, herps, fish, etc. Call me cynical.
I think using that rationalization applies more to people who smuggle rather than keep. I dont think there is any stigma with keeping any animal in captivity. They satisfy a myriad of our 'needs' or desires and in return we offer them a pretty dam comfy lifestyle....And as far as long term helping I don't think that is even going to work for something like lions, with all kinds of dedicated pro's working on them. Any zoo people here? I thought there was all of genetic problems with the captive lion stock....
And to the collectors and their locale data, look at that locked thread on xenethis white vs blau blah blah (what to buy) ....I guess there is some speculation that immanis is so hard to breed because of what's in the hobby being different species. These German collectors collected stuff from known locales and have very little problems producing from the blau's and white's...At least nothing like the problems we see with immanis.

Tony

Edit: I had a little paragraph going akin to Mr. I's much more eloquent rebuttal to the human plague but I figure he covered that pretty well...
 
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TheGreenMachine

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Its a noble idea to save a species but the reality is that not one species of anything living has been around forever or will be around forever. Either via human interference or natural selection/evolution the species will eventually cease to exist. I would consider human involvement a small nick in the natural evolution of all living things on this planet, or perhaps we will be a step in the evolution of living things.
 

Rourke

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monantony said:
I think using that rationalization applies more to people who smuggle rather than keep. I dont think there is any stigma with keeping any animal in captivity.
I think the illusion of a “noble cause” is much more prevalent among hobbyists than it is with large-scale suppliers. People who smuggle animals don’t usually require that type of rationalization. Their goals are simple are so are their minds. Yes, that’s a broad generalization, I’m aware, but broadly true I believe. And I must respectfully disagree about the lack of stigma attached to the captive ownership of exotics. Many are reproachful of those who own exotic pets. New bans and local ordinances appear daily across the country. People with tarantulas, pythons, large lizards, etc. are often portrayed as dirtbags or morons in the media. Simply giving a movie criminal a large reptile or a freaky bug fetish makes him all the more insidious and unsettling. And we all have long hair, tattoos, piercings, and listen to 80’s speed metal, right? In my own experience, many individuals question the moral right to “own” animals. How many times have I heard the following?

“But what does it DO? It looks so bored in there. Does it ever move?”
“Doesn’t it need more space? Do you ever let it out to run around?”
“It can’t ever ‘know’ you, like a dog or a cat—THEY are a part of the family.”

Or my favorite:

“It just doesn’t look happy.”

Bet you’ve all heard this, too. We tend to dismiss these folks as people who “just don’t get it,” but I think there’s more to it than that. They are uncomfortable with our hobby, and it’s often for [unclearly defined] moral reasons. Sometimes it’s subtle, but the stigma is there for sure.


reverendsterlin said:
mankind is an unstoppable plague.
Rev
The Rev may have had the right idea, but allowed imperfect and judgemental words to muddle its expression. I believe Mister Internet has correctly defined the place of humankind in the universe. For good or ill, we are the top dogs. Acceptance of this fact is neither arrogance nor negligence. However, the natural instincts of self- and species-preservation have ironically equipped us to put ourselves ahead of our own needs. I’m talking about the predominance of short-term thinkers over long-term thinkers. I suppose our extinction fits snugly into the natural order of things. I don’t believe any of this argues for complacency in the matter, which is unfortunately the most prevalent mindset.

And lastly, I must say to Mister Internet that I think my REAL first post, which for some reason is nowhere to be found, was at least as insightful as my “official” first post. Just kidding. It was obnoxious. Maybe the most obnoxious first post?
 

MizM

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And there is ALWAYS my fear... that we'll start cross-breeding and creating "super Ts" with bright color and perfect behaviour! Geeze, they're cloning all KINDS of stuff now! I do think we should experiment with nature! :(
 

Wade

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I think we also have to ask the question: "Are tarantulas in that much trouble in the first place?" I ask this because I've collected T's in the American southwest many times, and have never had to venture more than 20 yards from the road, often only ten feet or so. Even in heavily developed areas, there are tarantulas, I've found borrows next to parking lots and even in median strips of industrial areas. Many aboreal species are known to build retereats under the eaves of houses.

While habitat destruction certainly threatens many animal species, I'm not sure it is the case with most T's. Probably some species are vunerable, though.

I always bristle a little at the idea we have to justify keeping these or any other animal. I keep them because I like them. Any other benifit is just gravy.

Wade
 

Tony

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Perhaps I didn't get it down right, to Me/Us there is no stigma, no need to justify. But your right to the outsiders there is a big stigma. I meant it more in the vein of I dont see any problems with pet ownership. And while I think your right about smugglers I really don't know too many people who use the 'rationalization' as a reason for being in this hobby. Theraphosa breeding project, they may give it as a reason, but knowing them I think it's become one over time and maybe not even the primary reason. Most others give 'I like em' or ' They are cool and fascinating' as a reason.
Whatever the case, at least we all are on the same side and have such a great focal point as this site...
T
 

Drosera123

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Was there ever a person in the history of mankind that actually bred a T. and released the slings into the wild? Did that ever happen with T. blondi or Brachypelma or Poecilotheria? Im aware of a retailer that for instance received 300 adult blondis at the beginning of 2003, dont you think that would kill the local population(french guyana)? Do you think exporters would care about where they collect the t's and if they collect too many? I'm sure they're all for grabs for whatever and everything they see. I've boycotted wc's for a while now, too bad I think i'm the only one doing it, lol.
Steve
 

Drosera123

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With all the overcollected species. Don't you think lack of genetic diversity would seriously hurt the species in the future?
Steve
 

Tony

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For sure there has been steve, but perhaps not bred. Maybe WC gravid. They released B vagans into the wild in Florida where they continue to do well.

Dont buy WC, but I will, I could always use a "pure" blood breeding spider...If only it were legal for a sane person to go in and carry out spiders rather than the wholesale BS smuggling where a high % of spiders die, and are collected right from one easy area....When I was in Peru we could have grabbed 2-3 velvetesomma from many locations miles apart, and had at least a nice group to hand carry back....
T

EDIT: Steve , please show me "overcollected" data. Habitat destruction is the one proven threat to most theraphosids
 

MizM

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Have to wonder about overcollection... look at g. rosea!
 

Tony

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MizM said:
Have to wonder about overcollection... look at g. rosea!
Of all the species this one would get the vote of possible overcollection...Surely some graduate student would like to spend a year or two in Chile collecting data.....
T
 

Steve Nunn

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minax said:
But...............will captive breeding be enough to save the species?
Not in a million years :)

I have released CB back into the wild, but I was in a certain position to be able to, having collected the spiders in the first place (I knew the locations exactly of collected material).

Steve
 

Anansi

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I think everyone here and maybe even the topic starter has forgot one fundamentally important thing; will captive breeding save T's in the wider idealistic sense?...No, it's not like saving the white bengal tiger or anything...HOWEVER, captive breeding will save T's for the hobbyist and the sub-culture of the T pet trade...Let's face it, without captive breeders and dealers the average person (and maybe even the advanced) is not going to be able to just go out there and get an ecuadorian blue femur beauty...From a collector standpoint, we are dead in the water without people supplying us...Just imagine for a second if there were no captive breeders and the only way one could get rare and exotic species is through paying a "head-hunter" an exorbitant amount of money for something that was wild caught...What dealers have done is make (at least the american side of it) the T trade accessible and reasonable...We know what a good deal is when we come across a T at petco or a mom and pop pet store...but why?...because most of us know supply and demand and roughly what the supply and demand is from species to species...In this sense...Captive breeders and dealers are the "Men In Black" (movie allusion)...because without them there is no hobby...A lot of us have jobs, maybe they are glamorous, maybe they arent...But from a business standpoint, selling T's may not be the most glamorous job, but it is a fulfilling job, because these people are taking part in the contination of a species and we as buyers have a right to continue that legacy by educating others and maybe even breeding the easier species...so in a sense captive breeding is saving T's...but its saving them for us...In the wild, T's becoming endangered is inevitable, they can slow the rate down, but we have to understand saving T's is the last thing devlopers and even PETA want to get involved in...They only care about the cute animals...So lets all save the T's by ensuring a constant and desireable supply...
 
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Tony

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A couple things about anasi's post caught my eye....

One was accessible and reasonable. Both terms debatable, the latter more than the former.... I just think in my opinion reasonable is more debatable. Being so 'far outside the loop' of dealing, it's hard for any of us to accurately ascertain what is a reasonable markup ... I eagerly await the importation of baumgarteni spiderlings, especially since I would assume the dealer is getting them (in 100 lot) below the going 12.50 euro price. One thing if for certain , the prices in this hobby seem to be marching up.... Over the years I have been told (only once) who not to sell to, or risk being ostracized by him (the dealer), I have seen many times the cry not to breed curlies or para's else you devalue the market...But never though, a plan as to who and how many get to be in the chosen breeding arena of those species....What this hobby boils down to is NOT profit, but love of animals. I make no qaulms about the costs of large scale operations and make no beefs in profit, but there just seems to be an overall attempt to overvalue the hobby. I mean asking sky high prices for something that is in supposed high-demand/low-supply.. Take B smithi adults at huge prices, but in reality 6 females go for several calls in th e classifieds for $100 a pop. Not even sure if they are sold. Yes they may sell at enormous prices, but I get the impression it's to people who don't know any better.
My point is this hobbies true strength lies not with the (indespensable) dealer but truly with each and every hobbiest doing what they can to breed and learn. One has to wonder "on the American side of it" is it really better? I mean If europe dosen't have the large dealers, and only dedicated hobbiests, does it result in vastly ,lower prices for them? I mean when shipments come into the US, it typically isn't some $500 worth of spiders . It's on the order of $1000's and you can ammortize those import duties and shipping charge down very low over 100's of spiders.....Seems to me the best way to grow this hobby is through affordability, not higher prices.

And breeding what you have when you have it is the best way of all....Losing handfulls of male genetics in order to keep supply low is a short sighted tack....Breeding 100 para females a year, keeping track of bloodlines is better. SO you say the world ends with the production of 260,000 babies? Not so.(this gets sticky, stay with me). You simply cull. Bad words, but cull. Don't let them cannabilize till you get 90 males and 10 females. Take 200 out of each sack ,vial em up and keep track. The rest, well use your imagination. This method is vital to high producing species, and may already be in use ;). Bigger questions arise to how many to keep etc etc. But most importantly breed it, genetic diversity depends on it...
EDIT: When I bred my para, I was bummed to learn others had eggsacs..."the market would flood" as I have heard shrilly over time....When it came down to it the two other guys with sacs went bad , so the oversupply never materialized....
T
 
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