Most potent Old World venom?

I know the evidence for the severity of bites resulting from these species is rather inconclusive at this point, since all we really have to go off of are bite reports, but I was curious as to which one of these is believed to have the strongest venom. I'm getting some conflicting information, because I have read that OBT venom is not as bad as that of Pokies, but I've also heard people say the exact opposite. I know that venom from S. calaceum and H. maculata have been known to cause heart problems and therefore is considered very serious, but how do these two rank in comparison to the other two I mentioned? Also what about Hapopelma? I'm sure a bite from them is far from pleasant (like all OW's) but is it as bad as any of the ones I just asked about?

There are so many factors involved in this, not only how strong their venom is, but also how the health of the person being bitten is. Add to that how much venom is injected, there are actually many dry bites. All this means it is very difficult to say anything conclusive about this. There is no doubt stromatopelma, heteroscodra and poecilotheria have pretty potent venom. But other old worlds too have suspect venom. I travel to asia(Thailand/vietnam/Laos) sometimes and find T´s in nature, i talk to locals there and they tell me they get sick when bitten by haplopelma, they tell me that it feels like getting 2 100c needles down your finger and will stay this way for several hours and then stomach/cramp troubles will follow for several days, so also a genus who shall not be underestimated.
But if you add all these factors together, then there is no doubt why it is difficult to know who is the most potent T.

We just had a thread about this. We don't know, and won't know, because there's no funding to study it. Bite effects vary due to the size and aggitation of the spider, along with the age, weight, and physical condition of the victim.

Please, no more of this. The pointless speculation puts the emphasis on the wrong aspects of the hobby, draws daredevils, and turns tarantulas into a freak show.

To parahprase the old venomous snake adage - whats the most potent OW tarantula? The one that just bit you.

Poec54 said:

We just had a thread about this. We don't know, and won't know, because there's no funding to study it. Bite effects vary due to the size and aggitation of the spider, along with the age, weight, and physical condition of the victim.

Please, no more of this. The pointless speculation puts the emphasis on the wrong aspects of the hobby, draws daredevils, and turns tarantulas into a freak show.

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Amen Brother!

Poec54 said:

We just had a thread about this. We don't know, and won't know, because there's no funding to study it. Bite effects vary due to the size and aggitation of the spider, along with the age, weight, and physical condition of the victim.

Please, no more of this. The pointless speculation puts the emphasis on the wrong aspects of the hobby, draws daredevils, and turns tarantulas into a freak show.

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Take it easy. I have a right to ask questions no matter how pointless they may seem to you. Don't like it then don't post in the thread. I have no ill intentions for this hobby though I suppose saying so is pointless, because you'll believe what you want to believe.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

BobGrill said:

Take it easy. I have a right to ask questions no matter how pointless they may seem to you. Don't like it then don't post in the thread. I have no ill intentions for this hobby though I suppose saying so is pointless, because you'll believe what you want to believe.

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We just went through this very question a week or two ago. There are no firm answers, period. Nothing's changed since then. If you want to rehash it, why not reread that and forget about this one? All this topic does is sensationalize the animals which is the last thing we want. The absolute wrong kind of attention. Again, please stop.

Funny thing about spider venom, most potent are usually OW and defensive true spiders like black widow/false widow or even trapdoors, as trapdoors are little buggers lol same as large orb weavers.

Poec54 said:

We just went through this very question a week or two ago. There are no firm answers, period. Nothing's changed since then. If you want to rehash it, why not reread that and forget about this one? All this topic does is sensationalize the animals which is the last thing we want. The absolute wrong kind of attention. Again, please stop.

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Can you please stop accusing me of doing such things? It was just a question being asked out of pure curiosity, no ill intention was meant from it. I'm almost convinced at this point that you are just purposely trolling me.

BobGrill said:

I know the evidence for the severity of bites resulting from these species is rather inconclusive at this point, since all we really have to go off of are bite reports, but I was curious as to which one of these is believed to have the strongest venom. I'm getting some conflicting information, because I have read that OBT venom is not as bad as that of Pokies, but I've also heard people say the exact opposite.

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So you know the info is "inconclusive"..that's your answer.

2. Bite reports aren't scientific by any means...for so many reasons that I don't care to type

3. Believed to be..believed by who, and let's not forget someone else will say "no it's this species"

4. "Conflicting information"- I doubt any of the information is conflicting if you are relying on bite reports. Painful to me, is not to another etc

I'm surprised none of this crossed your mind when asking a question that is completely subjective for the time being. You might as well have asked, "what's the prettiest T" or "which NW T has the most irritating urticating setae" hahahah

As I said it was just pure curiosity. I got my answer, although I feel like some could have been a bit friendlier in the way they gave it. Then again, that's probably asking too much.

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BobGrill said:

Can you please stop accusing me of doing such things? It was just a question being asked out of pure curiosity, no ill intention was meant from it. I'm almost convinced at this point that you are just purposely trolling me.

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I don't believe he is trolling you, you've been on the boards since 2011 you should atleast run a quick search for recents threads on this topic, if you use the boards fairly frequently you will see the cycle of the boards, a thread about venom strength is a fairly common thread if there was any breaking news/updates on the venom side of things I'm pretty sure it would be a large active thread consisting of many posts.

Would be alot better to bump a more recent thread with any questions (some could have possibly been answered in a previous thread, thus saving the front couple of pages hosting multiple threads on the same topic) rather than crete a whole new one that will likely get low replies due to everyone answering the same question about a week previous..... it's understandable from a newb, but long term posters should know how to and also utilise the search function.... so many great threads full of information are buried under threads and threads of same topics and repeat threads, part of reason I don't really make any threads alot of the old threads answer 'new' questions and in alot better detail than most current threads.

Yes you're correct I should've done that. I just want to make it clear that I don't want tarantulas percieved as monsters by those with less knowledge. I have no ill intentions for this hobby.

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BobGrill said:

I just want to make it clear that I don't want tarantulas percieved as monsters by those with less knowledge.

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Good, there are certain topics that shouldn't be repeated, especially in such a short amount of time. Husbandy and breeding are much more interesting, and challenging.

Searches and bumps should indeed be done. However, I don't see the need to tell people what they can and cannot post. If you find the topic repetitive, skip on over. I do that to many, many posts each day. Leave it to the mods to decide which topics and threads need to be shut down.

Poec54 said:

Husbandy and breeding are much more interesting, and challenging.

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Venom potency is interesting, and not because of the thrills some people get out of this and other sensational subjects (which you often target on these boards, and not without good reason) but because of the mundane desire to learn a little more about these animals we like. I don't speak for the motivations of the OP, but there is no direct harm in asking these or any questions. How the community answers is more important, when there is a chance of drawing in sensitive issues, correcting misunderstandings and helping people to see the safer, more sensible side of keeping tarantulas. Which of course you did, after a fashion.

As for the topic itself, OP may be interested to read this quote by TarantulaHomes, in a thread from 2010.

TarantulaHomes said:

Here's some data taken from Escoubas, Pierre & Lachlan Rash. "Tarantulas: eight legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists." Toxicon 43 (2004): 555-574:

0.1 microliter of crude venom injected intracerebroventricularly (ICV) in mice:

Species - Time to death (min)

Cithariscius crawshayi - 3
Stromatopelma calceatum - 3
Paraphysa sp. - 4
Poecilotheria regalis - 4
Grammostola actaeon - 5
Grammostola rosea - 5
Heteroscodra maculata - 5
Hysterocrates hercules - 5
Theraphosa blondi - 5
Paraphysa scrofa - 6
Pterinochilus murinus - 6
Avicularia urticans - 8
Grammostola pulchra - 8
Selenocosmia lyra - 8
Ceratogyrus meridionalis - 10
Cyclosternum fasciatum - 10
Cyriopagopus paganus - 10
Eucratoscelus constrictus - 10
Haplopelma lividum - 10
Tapinauchenius latipes - 12
Hysterocrates gigas - 15
Megaphobema velvetosoma - 16
Poecilotheria fasciata - 18
Ceratogyrus marshalli - 20
Pamphobeteus antinous - 25
Ceratogyrus brachycephalus - 40
Ephebopus murinus - 45
Brachypelma boehmei - 50
Megaphobema robustum - 50
Aphonopelma anax - 60
Aphonopelma chalcodes - 60
Aphonopelma pallidum - 60
Aphonopelma seemani - 60
Avicularia avicularia - 60
Brachypelma albopilosum - 60
Brachypelma angustum - 60
Brachypelma auratum - 60
Brachypelma emilia - 60
Brachypelma smithi - 60
Brachypelma vagans - 60
Crassicrus lamanai - 60
Lasiodora parahybana - 60
Megaphobema mesomelas - 60
Pamphobeteus vespertinus - 60
Psalmopoeus cambridgei - 60
Tapinauchenius gigas - 60
Vitalius platyomma - 60

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It's notable, of course, how highly Grammostola sp. score on the list. What does any of this tell us about the potency of tarantula venom for humans? Reliably, nothing whatsoever. But worth a look nonetheless.

I wonder why they injected ICV as that is not a route, as opposed to into the bloodstream, still interesting. It certainly gives scientists clues as to which species' venom contains peptides targeting the neuro and potentially cardiovascular systems. In some species we already have identified certain peptides which target certain ion channels, Grammostola and Psalmo being just 2 of the genera among many.

Paper from above

http://venomics.eu/publications/VT4.pdf

viper69 said:

I wonder why they injected ICV as that is not a route, as opposed to into the bloodstream, still interesting. It certainly gives scientists clues as to which species' venom contains peptides targeting the neuro and potentially cardiovascular systems. In some species we already have identified certain peptides which target certain ion channels, Grammostola and Psalmo being just 2 of the genera among many.

Paper from above

http://venomics.eu/publications/VT4.pdf

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Geez viper, some of us don't have the time to read that...my time is important could you just post the good stuff.


(J/K of course...lol)

cold blood said:

Geez viper, some of us don't have the time to read that...my time is important could you just post the good stuff.


(J/K of course...lol)

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Hahahahah I did post the good stuff, all of it! I can't help it if some people want to be spoon fed information or are just too lazy

Bobgrill, you are not hurting the hobby. Heck you could be helping it just as much as you could be hurting it. I asked the same thing a few weeks back (some have mentioned my thread). People are unnecessarily condescending about this topic and it is sort of understandable if they have seen it rehashed a million times. Bottom line is they should ignore it or explain why they think you may want to avoid talking about it so you can explain your intentions. They don't care bout your intentions. If these guys do not have the patience to continue to help hobbyists understand possible ramifications of their words, or to stay open minded enough to see the other person's opinion, they should say nothing. I think we should be smart enough to realize that certain topics bring the worst from people and just choose to not talk about it, or talk about it with others in a private setting. In TKG, Shultz made it clear that most species will thrive with very basic care. Water and a few crickets a month, substrate of varying depths depending on lifestyle of the T, a means to hide (bark oriented differently depending on the T's lifestyle). If husbandry is so fascinating, than apparently we can rehash these basic requirements endlessly and it remains fascinating, while venom strength is boring and repetitive. Could overcomplicating the care of a species actually keep some responsible hobbyists from getting involved or keeping certain species therefore stunting the growth of the hobby…could be argued. Some people may talk specific husbandry requirements when they are not necessary. The TKG states this pretty clearly. Overcomplicating things and talking down to folks is part of the egocentrism of academia…If it can be simplified so that the common folk can do it than you geniuses are not as smart as you think, aint that right? Then the thing you base your confidence on is shown to be an illusion constructed to make you feel special, and then you are faced with the possibility that you are just like me…a regular guy. That simply can't be cause we all know that there are those who are superior. BS. Keyboard confidence, condescending, unnecessary and annoying. I have talked privately with some guys who have kept a huge variety of species for decades. When they spoke to me they said they thought I had a level head and would probably do fine with even some defensive species. I am pretty humble about most things and know I have a lot to learn but when I see folks that think they know better than everyone around them and they treat folks like inferiors…no good for the hobby, no good in general.