Chances of a successful pairing in Poecilotheria lowland/bara

JohnDapiaoen

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Last night I attempted to pair my Poecilotheria subfusca lowland/bara female with my newly acquired male. After a couple minutes he began to drum with the female responding a bit but didn't seem that all interested because she began to walk away from him several seconds after. I decided to just let them cohabit together for a bit, and hopefully catch them in courtship later in the night. Around 20 minutes after, I checked on the pair. They were resting in classic poeci position side by side, not really paying each other any mind and the male has halted his loud incessant drumming. From what I've seen in pairing videos, and I only found out about it within those 20 minutes I was away from the pair, is this sp. has a very... VERY brief courtship and split second insertion.
Now I'm wondering what are the chances that this pair has done the deed. Should I just leave the male there for a while or take him out to try and pair them again later? currently hes in the enclosure with her.

-JohnD.
 
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Beary Strange

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Well if she's on the glass you should be able to see her furrow, which could help give you an idea if they did. I don't know if this is a reliable method but the few I've seen that had paired for sure it was very, err, obvious.
 

Poec54

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I only leave Poec males in for one night. Some guys leave them in for days or weeks, and they usually get eaten (once in a while, a male will kill a female). One of the big drawbacks to leaving males in for an extended time and losing the male, is that if the female sheds, you no longer have a partner for her, and that means no eggs. Also, I ONLY leave a male in if they're both courting (drumming and tapping). If only one is, or neither, then there's a higher chance of no insertion, or the male being killed.

If you want to try again, do it a week later, again for one night. I put them together after dark, and take the male out the next morning (provided both are tapping in the beginning, otherwise he shouldn't be left in). They have a longer courtship ritual than most other genera, and in the dozens of Poec pairings I've done, I've never seen an insertion (their courtship goes on and on & I get restless).
 

Pociemon

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You can also introduce a rainy season to motivate the female for some courtship. Poecilotheria usually mate late or just after the rainy season. It means keeping their substrate very humid and mist every day, or every second day. That will normally help motivate them, especcially the female, the male is ready to go anytime. I give them 3 days together max. If i see insertion i take the male out. But on day 3 he will go out.
 

Poec54

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In my experience, unresponsive, or hostile females are usually either going to molt before long, or are past their prime.
 

JohnDapiaoen

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She responds for a bit but appears to lose interest. I raised her from a sling and know she's about 2 years old also she molted two months ago. So I'd say she should be good to go.
 

Poec54

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She responds for a bit but appears to lose interest. I raised her from a sling and know she's about 2 years old also she molted two months ago. So I'd say she should be good to go.
At 2 years she would just be hitting puberty, and may need another molt to really be interested. 2 years can be 24 months, or nearly 36 months though, big difference. I tried a geniculata pair several times and the female was totally uninterested (she was 7" at the time). She shed, grew a little, and it was like a totally different spider, very responsive with the same male. One molt can make a difference.

In my experience, young adult females tend to either: 1) not make a sac, 2) make a small sac, and 3) have a lot of eggs/slings go bad, sometimes all of them. Although technically tarantulas may be sexually mature at 2/3's size, I'd never breed them that small. My Poec females have to be 6" before I'll pair them up, and for most Poec species, I prefer closer to 6 1/2".
 

JohnDapiaoen

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Interesting she's at the 6" mark right now. She grew rather quick and may still be going through puberty but considering how some t's mature faster than others I'd say might as well take a shot at it and hope for the best. One of the major reasons being I spent a considerable amount on the male and it would be a waste if he were to die as I wait for my girl to molt again.
Also could it have been possible your A. geniculata was not interested because she was in premolt and not because she was going through puberty?
 

Poec54

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Interesting she's at the 6" mark right now. She grew rather quick and may still be going through puberty but considering how some t's mature faster than others I'd say might as well take a shot at it and hope for the best. One of the major reasons being I spent a considerable amount on the male and it would be a waste if he were to die as I wait for my girl to molt again.
Also could it have been possible your A. geniculata was not interested because she was in premolt and not because she was going through puberty?
I tried that same genic male 6 months before she molted, so it wasn't a premolt issue. No interest at all. At 7", she wasn't ready to be deflowered. Suddenly she blossomed into womanhood after the molt.

In future, I'd recommend that you not sink a lot of money into Poec males until you're sure that the female is close to 3 years old when the male matures. With what you're doing now, you have to accept that you may get no sac, or a small one where only 10 slings or less make it to 1st instar (I'm speaking from experience). I'd rather wait for a female to shed again, and get 100+ healthy slings from her. That's where spending the money on a male really pays off. Even though some tropical males can mature at 9-18 months, their sisters are usually going to be around 3+ years old before they're capable of producing a full-sized sac.
 

JohnDapiaoen

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Well if she's on the glass you should be able to see her furrow, which could help give you an idea if they did. I don't know if this is a reliable method but the few I've seen that had paired for sure it was very, err, obvious.
Ok I think I understand what you mean now. I'm looking at her now after leaving them alone for a few hours and shes rubbing her furrow (and anus for some reason). Her furrow slit is now open and some fluid is leaking out (I'm gonna take a good guess at what it is but I wont say just in case). These are signs of copulation correct? Or could it mean something else? as you can tell I've never bred any members of the poecilotheria genus but I have seen this with a haplopelma sp. after mating. Just want to make sure.

---------- Post added 04-19-2014 at 11:26 PM ----------

I tried that same genic male 6 months before she molted, so it wasn't a premolt issue. No interest at all. At 7", she wasn't ready to be deflowered. Suddenly she blossomed into womanhood after the molt.

In future, I'd recommend that you not sink a lot of money into Poec males until you're sure that the female is close to 3 years old when the male matures. With what you're doing now, you have to accept that you may get no sac, or a small one where only 10 slings or less make it to 1st instar (I'm speaking from experience). I'd rather wait for a female to shed again, and get 100+ healthy slings from her. That's where spending the money on a male really pays off. Even though some tropical males can mature at 9-18 months, their sisters are usually going to be around 3+ years old before they're capable of producing a full-sized sac.
This is some pretty good info. I see many people post about how the male can obviously be determined if he's old enough to breed just by looking at his dramatic physical change, but with a female the determinant is a bit more complicated I see.
 

Poec54

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This is some pretty good info. I see many people post about how the male can obviously be determined if he's old enough to breed just by looking at his dramatic physical change, but with a female the determinant is a bit more complicated I see.
Right. Just because a female's hitting puberty doesn't mean she SHOULD be bred. She's still growing and that's where her body's putting its resources. Producing a sac at the same time means something's going to suffer, or both (sac and her growth/health). Although some 10-year old human girls can hit puberty, there's a lot of reasons why it's not a good idea (even if she's big for her age). Having the ability to reproduce and it being in the best interest of the female are two different things.
 

JohnDapiaoen

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Right. Just because a female's hitting puberty doesn't mean she SHOULD be bred. She's still growing and that's where her body's putting its resources. Producing a sac at the same time means something's going to suffer, or both (sac and her growth/health). Although some 10-year old human girls can hit puberty, there's a lot of reasons why it's not a good idea (even if she's big for her age). Having the ability to reproduce and it being in the best interest of the female are two different things.
Is there any evidence that breeding a young female affects her growth/health? Some of the largest T's I've seen are wild caught and very well may have been exposed to a male early on. Also what are your thoughts on breeding a wild caught female when you don't know her age at all?
 

Poec54

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Is there any evidence that breeding a young female affects her growth/health? Some of the largest T's I've seen are wild caught and very well may have been exposed to a male early on. Also what are your thoughts on breeding a wild caught female when you don't know her age at all?
In my opinion, most captive adult females should be bred (in their prime), w/c's included. Every CBB in the hobby traces it's lineage to w/c parents, so thank god someone bred them. The more slings available, supply starts to catch up with demand, and the more affordable they are to the average working man. That's how it is in Europe: lots more spiders available, lots more species, and much cheaper prices. The US is headed in that direction.

In the wild, it's not a problem if a female churns out sacs annually from a young age and noticeably shortens her span, it's good for the species to have all those slings, but in captivity you might not want to do that with your one adult female. Highly-successful breeder Anastasia told me that in her experience breeding a female every year burns them out and noticeably shortens their life span. Remember in the wild, they have a far more varied diet, and the prey animals they're eating also have a far more varied diet, so they're getting different nutrition than what we can provide. Plus they're adapted to certain temps, rainfall, humidity, seasons, etc and that also effect their cycles and health in captivity. W/c spiders may or may not get larger than CBB, but that can be due to a variety of factors that we can't provide. If some are larger, it doesn't mean they live as long though (even without predation).

In my experience, breeding young females results in much smaller sacs (and also stated by Anastasia) often with few slings surviving, if any. In return for so little, or nothing, you put a lot of wear on a growing body. In retrospect, lets say you get a small sac from your subfusca, and less than 10 make it to 2nd instar, maybe even none And producing that the sac slows down her growth and ends up shortening her life by a couple years (years when she could have been producing a sac with 100 good slings). Then again, maybe you'll get a small sac of 3 dozen good slings. But then she doesn't produce a sac the following year (which would have been a much bigger, better sac had she not gotten 'sidetracked'). You decide which course is best for you.
 

Pociemon

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I can confirm that sacs from very young females produce very little offspring. Last year i got sacs from a young subfusca "highland with just 13 slings, in wich 11 survived, and from a young haplopelma hainanum, with result of 20 slings. It is better to save the females to full adulhood and get better sacs. But it is possible to breed them, but there is also much luck included to get succes, so better to wait.
 

JohnDapiaoen

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Poec54, most of your posts here repeat your initial statement, " wait until a female T is in her "prime" otherwise result in little or few offspring, " I understood what you meant the first time no need to repeat yourself. So there really is no evidence that breeding a female at a young age affects her health as from what you said, it's just a he said she said statement with no actual back up to the claim. And how exactly can you tell if a WC female is in her "prime" is what I'm asking, cause you claim size doesn't justify maturity with Female T's but rather time(years). Yes I realize from what you said large clutch of slings may not happen with my current subfusca, but I'm completely fine with that as I'm not a big breeder and having a lot of slings to care for in my limited space would be a hassle, I am expecting some slings from my two versis and some loans so a little bit less slings right now would be fine with me. I realized this thread got off topic, what I want to really know is the chances of my P. subfusca mating while I wasn't watching.
 

Poec54

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If you didn't see an insertion, there's no way to know for certain if one happened. I've paired up Poecs dozens of times and have never seen an insertion with them, as the courtship is rather lengthy. What I do differently than you is that I don't leave a male in the female's cage unattended unless both are actively courting. That puts the odds in my favor. In your case the female wasn't responding and communicating her willingness to mate, so she may not have started courting at all, and if that's the case the odds are against there having been an insertion. She's got to be very interested and cooperative or the male can't get her into position for insertion. It's not something he can force on her or sneak up and do. When a female is responsive and 'in heat', she'll frantically tap her front legs immediately in response to the male's first drum or two. You're just about guaranteed a mating with Poecs when that happens, and can leave the male in overnight. Since Poecs are fairly tolerant of each other, and subfusca is one of the most tolerant species, them being near each other later is no indication of a pairing; they'd probably do that regardess.
 
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