The World's Most Dangerous Snakes: Working with Mambas & King Cobras

findi · Apr 24, 2014

Hi, Frank Indiviglio here. I’m a herpetologist, zoologist, and book author, recently retired from a career spent at several zoos, aquariums, and museums, including over 20 years with the Bronx Zoo.
The dangers posed by a specific snake species depends upon a great many factors (please see below). It is clear, however, that venomous snakes are a serious health concern…according to a recent study, each year’s 4.5 million venomous snakebites result in 100,000 deaths and 250,000 permanent disabilities (figures are approximate, please see the article linked below for details). Certain large constrictors have also caused fatalities. In the course of field research in Venezuela, I observed a Green Anaconda attack a co-worker in what clearly was a feeding attempt. Please see “Further Reading”, below, to read about both this incident and a recent study of human predation by Reticulated Pythons. Today I’ll focus on the 2 most dangerous species that I’ve found most challenging as captives – the world’s largest and Africa’s longest venomous snakes, the King Cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) and the Black Mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis). Read the rest of this article here http://bit.ly/RPBjXx
Please also check out my posts on Twitter http://bitly.com/JP27Nj and Facebook http://on.fb.me/KckP1m

My Bio, with photos of animals I’ve been lucky enough to work with: http://bitly.com/LC8Lbp

Best Regards, Frank

The Snark · Apr 24, 2014

The World’s Most Venomous Snakes:
That title is rather ambiguous and confusing. Could you explain?

Very curious indeed.

freedumbdclxvi · Apr 24, 2014

Black mamba - the one snake i'd never own no matter what. Beautiful but they scare the bejesus outta me.

Great article.

findi · Apr 24, 2014

freedumbdclxvi said:
Black mamba - the one snake i'd never own no matter what. Beautiful but they scare the bejesus outta me.

Great article.

Thanks very much...they scare everyone!

Mindibun · Apr 25, 2014

We have a female green mamba and while I am very wary of her, she is the most "docile" and well-behaved of all our venomous snakes. The gaboon viper is a close second. That gabby is my personal favorite.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk

Najakeeper · Apr 25, 2014

I have a self imposed rule. No venomous snakes over 2 meters. So I cannot have Ophiophagus, Dendroaspis or Oxyuranus. I came close to buying all three but made myself stop, which probably is the reason why I am still alive

. These animals are smart, large and very venomous so they have to be taken very very seriously, however calling them dangerous might give the wrong idea as they are no danger to anyone when left alone and even in captivity, they calm down much easier compared to other venomous.

Aside from that point, great article Frank, thank you. The interesting thing to keep in mind though, these huge elapids are not the cause of most bites & deaths. The small vipers like Echis for example are the real problem. It is hard to not to see the 3m king but you can easily step on a sawscale viper, which can kill you as efficiently. Also, since elapids are not ambush predators, they are not on a hair trigger like viperids, which are always cocked and ready to go.

Man, I am such a geek when it comes to venomous snakes

.

The Snark · Apr 25, 2014

These discussions of the most xxxxxx snake are always misleading. It isn't just the snake but the MMO, means, method and opportunity. Lethality of venom is a factor of course.
However, the most human deaths are due to 2 factors: high human population density and poor to non existent medical response. Then put very venomous snakes into the area. The krait leads the pack most of the time. Why? Multiple factors. It is very common in those areas, it becomes hyperactive in the evenings and it's venom is the most lethal, LD50 wise. Next is the common cobras. Not the most potent venom, not the most highly aggressive. Just a perfect storm of there being so many in a very high human population density. Then the Vipers, Saw Scale and Russells primarily. Less common, same human population density, but a more lethal venom. At the back of this pack is Hannah. Low venom potency comparatively. Same human population density. Often much easier to see. But it's strike zone is enormous, measured in feet instead of inches, and it can deliver more venom than any other snake per bite.
Mamba is competing for a place in the top 4. Not just because of it's potent venom but it's aggressive nature and high human population density again, but nowhere near as high as northern India where the top 4 people killers come together.

So it's a matter of combined circumstances. MMO. If one was to write the perfect storm scenario, IMHO, combine the snake nests or pits of the rattlers of the pacific southwest with the human population density of northern India. Not the most potent venom, small strike range, but the opportunity goes right off the scale and the average rattler will always strike and has a very high effectiveness of the strike, when it is threatened and/or cornered. (Coiled - always cocked). It also tends to hunt 'sitting down' as an ambush predator, coiled and ready next to rat or mice burrows etc. Thus it has the highest average of the MMO. All it needs are lots of bare human legs to take the top prize. It's cuz, the saw scale, is in the competition already for the same reasons, but lacks the high snake density of those nests.

As an interesting irony to all this, there already is a snake that combines all the the very best qualities. Ultra lethal venom, highly athletic, very fast, extremely aggressive and a large strike zone. But the low human and snake population densities places the Inland Taipan way way WAY at the back of the big bang pack.

From my personal experience however, it dials right back to what the this thread is about. Putting myself in a large area with any of the most lethal snakes. Common cobras, no problem. They aren't aggressive or inquisitive enough. The vipers, the same. Just move slowly and avoid strike range. The krait, check your watch. If it isn't between 17:00 and midnight just ignore and avoid stepping on them. But the Hannah, and most likely the mamba (I have no personal experience with them)... no thanks. Hannah will be aware of you, period. Even 20 feet away it will often put it's hood up. It may decide to go after you without notice or apparent reason and if it does, the chances are very high you will be tagged. It's way too fast and capable and a human simply isn't athletic enough to avoid it.
When I was photographing the Hannah the rules were leave if it get's between you and the door (or even moves like it may), two experts with hooks, one at either side of me, and only the snakes under 10 feet. Not having to handle the large adults, the experts won't even consider entering their containments. If they decide to try tagging you, assume the worst.

With the picture I posted above, the moment the door was opened the larger one (I think 'Pop') raised up and flattened it's hood. Mom came up moments later. Then they both did exactly as you see in the shot. Watching intently the entire time. A handler was against my right side with a hook and another had a fistful of my shirt, ready to jerk me out of the cage.

findi · Apr 26, 2014

Hi All,

Thanks for your interest. I've responded to many bites delivered to private keepers of venomous snakes during my career. It is impossible for a private owner, no matter how wealthy, to properly prepare for bite treatment, and foolhardy to assume that one will not be bitten. Therefore, I do agree with the keeping of venomous snakes in private collections. I also disagree with rating individuals as "calm", "docile" etc....this tendency is not limited to private owners, but is unfortunately picked up by some new reptile keepers (in zoos) as well...in well-run institutions, such folks are corrected immediately, and are not allowed to work with venomous species unless and until they are able to do so in a manner that assures their safety and that of their co-workers (who must repond in the event of a bite and the visitors. Best, Frank

freedumbdclxvi · Apr 26, 2014

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that a private keeper cannot "prepare" for a bite treatment. I don't know about all insurance plans, but I know mine covers antivenom costs - I made sure before I began keeping Phoneutria. Not only that, I am less than an hour from one of the best venom response teams in the nation, Venom One. They are in both mine and my fiancee's speed dial. While I currently do not have any hot reptiles as I lack the training and proper permitting, I don't think I would be "unprepared" for a bite as far as response goes. I have a bite protocol in effect should I take a bite from the Phoneutria, and antivenom is local to me. Now, does everyone have an insurance plan with antivenom covered *and* the antivenom available? I doubt it, but these are things every potential hot keeper should investigate beforehand.

findi · Apr 26, 2014

freedumbdclxvi said:
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that a private keeper cannot "prepare" for a bite treatment. I don't know about all insurance plans, but I know mine covers antivenom costs - I made sure before I began keeping Phoneutria. Not only that, I am less than an hour from one of the best venom response teams in the nation, Venom One. They are in both mine and my fiancee's speed dial. While I currently do not have any hot reptiles as I lack the training and proper permitting, I don't think I would be "unprepared" for a bite as far as response goes. I have a bite protocol in effect should I take a bite from the Phoneutria, and antivenom is local to me. Now, does everyone have an insurance plan with antivenom covered *and* the antivenom available? I doubt it, but these are things every potential hot keeper should investigate beforehand.

It is in no way a question of insurance, nor the availability of "venom one"...I suggest you speak with a local, well-financed zoo to learn exactly what is involved...not possible to arrange proper protocol in a home situation. Best, frank

freedumbdclxvi · Apr 26, 2014

I dunno. Speaking with Venom One, one of the best venomous bite response teams in the US, specifically about proper bite protocols would be on par with what any local zoo would tell me. In fact, were I to call Metro Zoo Miami, my local zoo, I wouldn't be surprised to hear them tell me to contact Venom One. I would agree with you in many situations the local zoo would be the best place to start, but I am fortunate that I am local to one of the most extensive and prepared venom response teams in the US, a resource I have made use of in the past and will again in the future.

findi · Apr 26, 2014

freedumbdclxvi said:
I dunno. Speaking with Venom One, one of the best venomous bite response teams in the US, specifically about proper bite protocols would be on par with what any local zoo would tell me. In fact, were I to call Metro Zoo Miami, my local zoo, I wouldn't be surprised to hear them tell me to contact Venom One. I would agree with you in many situations the local zoo would be the best place to start, but I am fortunate that I am local to one of the most extensive and prepared venom response teams in the US, a resource I have made use of in the past and will again in the future.

Again, it is impossible to prepare properly in the home. I have written and implemented the bite protocol for the USA's best known venomous snake oriented zoo, and for 20+ years have assisted in doing so for one of the world's largest, best known and well-financed zoos. Throughout my career I have also been involved in the hands-on aspects - responding to snakebites in private homes; I know of what I speak, but have been down this road many, many times over the past 30 years and have no illusions as to the effectiveness of my warnings. I've written on this extensively elsewhere..I'll try to send a link, but cannot go over the same ground again here. Good luck with all, Frank

The Snark · Apr 26, 2014

Could the OP please post the step by step protocols he is referring to? Or ... this is very confusing. Containment and control protocols?

freedumbdclxvi · Apr 26, 2014

I'm not disputing your knowledge - I'm simply bringing up that there are other experienced venomous bite responders that feel differently. Just as there are numerous way and opinions on anything else. I'd be happy to read what you provide - I am always looking to expand what I know. I am simply saying that I have met with and discussed venomous bite protocols with other people who also have been responding to venomous bites - both in the wild and in private - and their opinion was that it *is* possible to be prepared with a proper venomous bite protocol. That's all. I'm not trying to say you're wrong - I'm just saying others with the experience feel differently. And, honestly, as for as it goes for me, aside from Phoneutria and various hot scorpions, it is really just conjecture in my part, as I still need to complete the training to get the permit, and it isn't even something I will seriously pursue until my son is much older.

The Snark · Apr 26, 2014

Well, since the vast majority of venomous snakes are not kept by licensed, accredited, affiliated, recognized whatever zoos, we would definitely benefit from knowing the exact step by step protocols that are in place at these facilities the OP is referring to.

For what it is worth, very little to an untrained lay person without equipment, the following web site gives the medical protocols pretty precisely. The info can also be obtained in any ER manuals and all JCAH accredited hospitals incorporate the same in their P&Ps. http://snakebitecare.com/

Obligatory disclaimer:
(Please note, paramedics are extensions of hospital ERs. They do not undertake any procedure the hospital does not specifically designate or tacitly accept as a part of standard intervention treatments/techniques.)

freedumbdclxvi · Apr 26, 2014

That is an excellent resource to have.

ecooper · Apr 26, 2014

The Snark said:
These discussions of the most xxxxxx snake are always misleading. It isn't just the snake but the MMO, means, method and opportunity. Lethality of venom is a factor of course.
However, the most human deaths are due to 2 factors: high human population density and poor to non existent medical response. Then put very venomous snakes into the area. The krait leads the pack most of the time. Why? Multiple factors. It is very common in those areas, it becomes hyperactive in the evenings and it's venom is the most lethal, LD50 wise. Next is the common cobras. Not the most potent venom, not the most highly aggressive. Just a perfect storm of there being so many in a very high human population density. Then the Vipers, Saw Scale and Russells primarily. Less common, same human population density, but a more lethal venom. At the back of this pack is Hannah. Low venom potency comparatively. Same human population density. Often much easier to see. But it's strike zone is enormous, measured in feet instead of inches, and it can deliver more venom than any other snake per bite.
Mamba is competing for a place in the top 4. Not just because of it's potent venom but it's aggressive nature and high human population density again, but nowhere near as high as northern India where the top 4 people killers come together.

So it's a matter of combined circumstances. MMO. If one was to write the perfect storm scenario, IMHO, combine the snake nests or pits of the rattlers of the pacific southwest with the human population density of northern India. Not the most potent venom, small strike range, but the opportunity goes right off the scale and the average rattler will always strike and has a very high effectiveness of the strike, when it is threatened and/or cornered. (Coiled - always cocked). It also tends to hunt 'sitting down' as an ambush predator, coiled and ready next to rat or mice burrows etc. Thus it has the highest average of the MMO. All it needs are lots of bare human legs to take the top prize. It's cuz, the saw scale, is in the competition already for the same reasons, but lacks the high snake density of those nests.

As an interesting irony to all this, there already is a snake that combines all the the very best qualities. Ultra lethal venom, highly athletic, very fast, extremely aggressive and a large strike zone. But the low human and snake population densities places the Inland Taipan way way WAY at the back of the big bang pack.

From my personal experience however, it dials right back to what the this thread is about. Putting myself in a large area with any of the most lethal snakes. Common cobras, no problem. They aren't aggressive or inquisitive enough. The vipers, the same. Just move slowly and avoid strike range. The krait, check your watch. If it isn't between 17:00 and midnight just ignore and avoid stepping on them. But the Hannah, and most likely the mamba (I have no personal experience with them)... no thanks. Hannah will be aware of you, period. Even 20 feet away it will often put it's hood up. It may decide to go after you without notice or apparent reason and if it does, the chances are very high you will be tagged. It's way too fast and capable and a human simply isn't athletic enough to avoid it.
When I was photographing the Hannah the rules were leave if it get's between you and the door (or even moves like it may), two experts with hooks, one at either side of me, and only the snakes under 10 feet. Not having to handle the large adults, the experts won't even consider entering their containments. If they decide to try tagging you, assume the worst.

With the picture I posted above, the moment the door was opened the larger one (I think 'Pop') raised up and flattened it's hood. Mom came up moments later. Then they both did exactly as you see in the shot. Watching intently the entire time. A handler was against my right side with a hook and another had a fistful of my shirt, ready to jerk me out of the cage.

Very interesting to read your observations of Ophiophagus...and the photo you posted is cool! I have limited hands-on experience with elapids, but I have heard many times that specimens of Ophiophagus were different from other snakes (smarter and more aware). Years ago I was invited to be trained on elapid care and handling at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens. Don't remember why I didn't take the opportunity...

Cheers,
EC
www.macrocritters.wordpress.com

The Snark · Apr 26, 2014

ecooper said:
Very interesting to read your observations of Ophiophagus...and the photo you posted is cool! I have limited hands-on experience with elapids, but I have heard many times that specimens of Ophiophagus were different from other snakes (smarter and more aware). Years ago I was invited to be trained on elapid care and handling at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens. Don't remember why I didn't take the opportunity...

Cheers,
EC
www.macrocritters.wordpress.com

Hannah alertly watching people is unnerving compared to other snakes. Up they come, hood flattens and they watch you walk past. I've seen a lot of dogs take less interest in their surroundings. But the real nitty gritty is the handlers. Since about the time they could walk they handle any and all of the snakes, including smaller Hannah. But not the big Hannah, not even entering their containments. They also laugh at the so called cobra experts that put on shows with Hannah. They know a tag is going to come down eventually and tacitly acknowledge it as inevitable. Their words for those showman is universal: Ngo mak. Very stupid.

findi · Apr 27, 2014

Hello,

I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists). Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.

Opinions etc are not relevant here, at least in my view...there is a set, long-established way to deal with venomous bites, and even under the best of circumstances problems can arise. It is unwise to attempt to operate without fully understanding what is involved...hands on responders, while a wonderful source of info and a vital part of the protocol, are just that - a part. Doctors, herpetologists and many others all have a role, and have access to info that is largely unavailable to others.

I strongly advise the 2 prior posters not to rely upon the assumptions they have expressed above.

Those sincerely interested in working with venomous snakes would be well advised to seek a career in herpetology. If that is not possible, I suggest subscribing to the major journals..Copeia, Toxicon, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology etc and attending the conferences sponsored by the parent organizations.

Again, I'm not naive, and realize that, in most cases, legislation is the only way to limit the private ownership of venomous snakes (well, bites usually limit it...those that survive a bite almost always go through a rapid "attitude adjustment"!!). Therefore, I'll not continue debating this issue. Best, Frank

ecooper · Apr 27, 2014

The Snark said:
Hannah alertly watching people is unnerving compared to other snakes. Up they come, hood flattens and they watch you walk past. I've seen a lot of dogs take less interest in their surroundings. But the real nitty gritty is the handlers. Since about the time they could walk they handle any and all of the snakes, including smaller Hannah. But not the big Hannah, not even entering their containments. They also laugh at the so called cobra experts that put on shows with Hannah. They know a tag is going to come down eventually and tacitly acknowledge it as inevitable. Their words for those showman is universal: Ngo mak. Very stupid.

Really interesting stuff. Where exactly are you based? Are you in Thailand?

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