Idolomantis ... insane growth! Feeding-time series

papilio · Jul 11, 2014

When I began my thread [thread=263165]New Idolomantis diabolica, L2[/thread] less than two months ago I expected that I'd have to wait at least six months or so to see the wild colors which these display as adults. Not quite there yet (the larger of mine is L5) but should be seeing maturity in just a couple more instars or so. It's been amazing, you can almost see them growing ... they seem to molt nearly every week!

I didn't feel it was any longer appropriate to post grown Idolo pics under the same thread as when I received them, so here is a feeding series of the smaller of my two (L4) eating a cricket. Their normal diet is of course flies, but just this once I thought a cricket would offer more interesting images ... plus give me time to complete the shoot. A fly is devoured in about two minutes!

These were taken with a Nikon D800E and Canon MP-E hand-held at 2X to 5X.

Idolomantis diabolica, 2-inch L4

klawfran3 · Jul 14, 2014

Oh my lord! Those are amazing photos papilio! I can't wait until you post photos of them as full adults!

Biollantefan54 · Jul 14, 2014

Those look amazing, by the way, is that a mite in picture #6?

papilio · Jul 14, 2014

klawfran3 said:
Oh my lord! Those are amazing photos papilio! I can't wait until you post photos of them as full adults!

Thanks very much klawfran, much appreciated! :worship:
I can't wait either, shouldn't be long now! I was feeling disappointed that mine weren't showing the colors I see in other pics, but then I read that they only get them upon their maturing molt.
Would have been a blast to try to breed these, but as far as I can tell both are females.

Biollantefan54 said:
Those look amazing, by the way, is that a mite in picture #6?

Thank you Biollantefan! Yep, that it is.

Biollantefan54 · Jul 14, 2014

Did you not notice it lol? I love looking at all your pictures haha.

papilio · Jul 14, 2014

Biollantefan54 said:
Did you not notice it lol? I love looking at all your pictures haha.

Thanks again!
Oh yeah, saw it right away!

Much more cute than the ones which infest our Ts! lol

korg · Jul 14, 2014

papilio said:
Oh yeah, saw it right away! Much more cute than the ones which infest our Ts! lol

What, no insane macro shot of the mite's eyes? Hah, given the nature of your pictures I was seriously half expecting it...

Amazing stuff as usual. Thanks for posting!

papilio · Jul 14, 2014

korg said:
What, no insane macro shot of the mite's eyes? Hah, given the nature of your pictures I was seriously half expecting it...

Amazing stuff as usual. Thanks for posting!

Thank you korg!

You know, I would've tried but of course didn't see it until I started culling all the images! I see it only on that one photo, so it must have run off pretty quickly.

Biollantefan54 · Jul 14, 2014

That was the first thing I saw, I am looking forward to many more pictures, whatever animal in may be

.

McGuiverstein · Jul 15, 2014

Absolutely amazing pictures as usual! I'm usually a quiet observer, but I make it a point to never pass by your threads haha.

Your diabolica look amazing. Just curious, how are you getting yours to accept crickets? Mine is a pain to feed since it adamantly refuses crawling food. I knew diabolica was more interested in flying prey before I got mine, but I didn't realize they could be so stubborn. Feeding time generally consists of me tricking mine into thinking the cricket is flying by grasping an antenna or rear leg with tweezers and buzzing it around in front of it haha. I've looked into maggots, but I'd hate to get a culture just for one individual

My other mantis species (paradoxa, lobata, wahlberghi) have been perfectly content with crickets but I'd like to vary their diets a little in the future. There's always a lot of people recommending variety from what I've read, but I'm not sure how crucial it is. What are your thoughts?

papilio · Jul 15, 2014

Biollantefan54 said:
That was the first thing I saw, I am looking forward to many more pictures, whatever animal in may be .

Thanks a lot Biollantefan!

McGuiverstein said:
Absolutely amazing pictures as usual! I'm usually a quiet observer, but I make it a point to never pass by your threads haha.

Your diabolica look amazing. Just curious, how are you getting yours to accept crickets? Mine is a pain to feed since it adamantly refuses crawling food. I knew diabolica was more interested in flying prey before I got mine, but I didn't realize they could be so stubborn. Feeding time generally consists of me tricking mine into thinking the cricket is flying by grasping an antenna or rear leg with tweezers and buzzing it around in front of it haha. I've looked into maggots, but I'd hate to get a culture just for one individual

My other mantis species (paradoxa, lobata, wahlberghi) have been perfectly content with crickets but I'd like to vary their diets a little in the future. There's always a lot of people recommending variety from what I've read, but I'm not sure how crucial it is. What are your thoughts?

Thank you McGuiverstein, very kind of you to say and means a lot to me!

I've very new to mantids so am not sure I have a valid opinion on that, but it would seem to make sense as I'm sure that they eat a variety of prey in the wild. I have heard however that Idolo females may become infertile if fed a diet of crickets rather than flies.

I don't typically feed the Idolos crickets, just did it for these photos. But it snagged the cricket immediately! As a general rule, at this size I'm feeding them two flies per day.

For some reason I've had horrible luck with ooths ... I had five Ghost ooths and got a whopping total of three nymphs from them.

I misted them every other day with distilled water which is all the attention which my supplier recommends. Any clue what I might have done wrong?

I also just received a Creobroter pictipennis ooth, fingers crossed on that one. And just today I ordered three Pseudocreobotra Wahlbergii L2s ... Haven't had them before but I love the look, like orchids but even more interesting I think. So I can't wait to get those, and to photograph them!!

McGuiverstein · Jul 22, 2014

papilio said:
Thanks a lot Biollantefan!

Thank you McGuiverstein, very kind of you to say and means a lot to me!

I've very new to mantids so am not sure I have a valid opinion on that, but it would seem to make sense as I'm sure that they eat a variety of prey in the wild. I have heard however that Idolo females may become infertile if fed a diet of crickets rather than flies.

I don't typically feed the Idolos crickets, just did it for these photos. But it snagged the cricket immediately! As a general rule, at this size I'm feeding them two flies per day.

For some reason I've had horrible luck with ooths ... I had five Ghost ooths and got a whopping total of three nymphs from them. I misted them every other day with distilled water which is all the attention which my supplier recommends. Any clue what I might have done wrong?

I also just received a Creobroter pictipennis ooth, fingers crossed on that one. And just today I ordered three Pseudocreobotra Wahlbergii L2s ... Haven't had them before but I love the look, like orchids but even more interesting I think. So I can't wait to get those, and to photograph them!!

Sure thing

. Can't wait to see more!

It makes sense that they eat a variety of prey in the wild, but I wish I knew how dramatic an effect a limited diet in captivity has on them. I'm absolutely not above going out and capturing flies and other insects for them hahaha, but since I live in a city, I prefer to err on the side of caution, and only provide prey that I know where it has been. But if I'm shortening their lifespan or having a negative affect on their reproductive capacity by giving them a limited diet, maybe I should the risk.. From what I understand though, the reproductive ramification of feeding crickets to a female is that crickets potentially contain a chemical that limits the female's ability to produce the egg coating. But when I was younger and kept gravid locals each year, they laid fertile, full ooths. Sometimes it's just difficult to distinguish conjecture and superstition from facts on the internet.

Where do you get your flies, and how do you keep them to maximize productivity? I've read some different methods, but I'm not sure hat would work best.

As far as ooths go, I haven't had much experience yet except for with local species. I've read in a few places that keeping ooths from warmer climate species above room temperature is important for development. Humidity seems to be a big issue (as I'm sure you know), and it seems to be a fine line between over-spraying and under-spraying. I plan to breed my paradoxa when they mature, so hopefully I can gain a little more insight. Sorry I can't be of more help now though..

Good luck with the pictipennis ooth! You'll have to keep me posted! I actually feel the same way about wahlberghii haha. My guys still look like ants, but they're approaching their next molt and I'm pretty excited to see if they get some color. Their movements are pretty interesting though. Have you experienced that unique stretching-ish thing they do with their grasping arms yet?

papilio · Jul 22, 2014

McGuiverstein said:
Sure thing . Can't wait to see more!

It makes sense that they eat a variety of prey in the wild, but I wish I knew how dramatic an effect a limited diet in captivity has on them. I'm absolutely not above going out and capturing flies and other insects for them hahaha, but since I live in a city, I prefer to err on the side of caution, and only provide prey that I know where it has been. But if I'm shortening their lifespan or having a negative affect on their reproductive capacity by giving them a limited diet, maybe I should the risk.. From what I understand though, the reproductive ramification of feeding crickets to a female is that crickets potentially contain a chemical that limits the female's ability to produce the egg coating. But when I was younger and kept gravid locals each year, they laid fertile, full ooths. Sometimes it's just difficult to distinguish conjecture and superstition from facts on the internet.

Where do you get your flies, and how do you keep them to maximize productivity? I've read some different methods, but I'm not sure hat would work best.

As far as ooths go, I haven't had much experience yet except for with local species. I've read in a few places that keeping ooths from warmer climate species above room temperature is important for development. Humidity seems to be a big issue (as I'm sure you know), and it seems to be a fine line between over-spraying and under-spraying. I plan to breed my paradoxa when they mature, so hopefully I can gain a little more insight. Sorry I can't be of more help now though..

Good luck with the pictipennis ooth! You'll have to keep me posted! I actually feel the same way about wahlberghii haha. My guys still look like ants, but they're approaching their next molt and I'm pretty excited to see if they get some color. Their movements are pretty interesting though. Have you experienced that unique stretching-ish thing they do with their grasping arms yet?

Thanks for the reply McGuiverstein ... and great timing! The pictepennis ooth just began hatching last night!!! :biggrin: Check the insects sub-forum later tonight or tomorrow and I'll have some pics up (so far I've been holding off picking up the camera till the day's work is done and I can enjoy the shoot.

).

Only three so far, if past experience is any indication this may be all I get as the others always hatched at the same time, and then no more. I've hatched tons of other insects before and never had the dismal success rate I'm having with these mantids. I think I misted decently, and it's Summer here in Minnesota so plenty hot and humid. But I don't know, maybe I should have put some damp sphagnum moss in the bottom of the cup to keep the humidity higher still. Kinda seems like either they'd all die or all be fine and I'd have a decent number coming from each ooth ... but so far three this time is my record!

Anyway, thrilled to see these tiny orange guys running around all wide-eyed with wonder! The ooth wasn't supposed to hatch for another month yet.

Thanks for the insight on the cricket-diet effect! I only have the two Idolos and at this point (L5) I don't see any sexual dimorphism so am assuming they're the same. But my dealer only kept four for herself, and her only male died in a bad molt ... so if mine both turn out to be male perhaps she'd be interested in making a switch so that we could both have a go at breeding another generation.

Guess I'm not sure what you mean by that grasping-ish thing, unless it's similar to what all of the mantids I've raised have done ... if so, yeah I've always thought it was cool, and is especially spectacular with my big Idolos with the great colors/pattern on the insides of their upper arms.

For the big Idolos I get 100 Bluebottle pupae about a month at a time. Some have suggested keeping the pupae in the fridge until needed, then just dropping a few into the enclosure every other day or so, but Rebecca says that they only stay viable for about a week in the fridge and so I let them all hatch in a big hex jar, carefully extract a few flies each day from a small hole, put them to sleep in the fridge and then drop them in with the Idolos. For the little guys I'm on Melanogastors ... the cultures I've gotten from Rebecca have for some reason failed to produce, so I just yesterday ordered a culture from Josh's Frogs, have never had any trouble with his.

Hard to believe that just a few weeks ago the Ghosts had just hatched and were almost as tiny as these pictepennis nymphs ... they're already nearly 3/4-inch!! Having gotten used to raising Ts for so long, I've forgotten how quickly insects grow. lol

Oh, and three L2 wahlberghii nymphs will be arriving tomorrow, so looks like it's mantis mania time around here!

McGuiverstein · Jul 23, 2014

papilio said:
Thanks for the reply McGuiverstein ... and great timing! The pictepennis ooth just began hatching last night!!! :biggrin: Check the insects sub-forum later tonight or tomorrow and I'll have some pics up (so far I've been holding off picking up the camera till the day's work is done and I can enjoy the shoot. ).

Only three so far, if past experience is any indication this may be all I get as the others always hatched at the same time, and then no more. I've hatched tons of other insects before and never had the dismal success rate I'm having with these mantids. I think I misted decently, and it's Summer here in Minnesota so plenty hot and humid. But I don't know, maybe I should have put some damp sphagnum moss in the bottom of the cup to keep the humidity higher still. Kinda seems like either they'd all die or all be fine and I'd have a decent number coming from each ooth ... but so far three this time is my record! Anyway, thrilled to see these tiny orange guys running around all wide-eyed with wonder! The ooth wasn't supposed to hatch for another month yet.

Thanks for the insight on the cricket-diet effect! I only have the two Idolos and at this point (L5) I don't see any sexual dimorphism so am assuming they're the same. But my dealer only kept four for herself, and her only male died in a bad molt ... so if mine both turn out to be male perhaps she'd be interested in making a switch so that we could both have a go at breeding another generation.

Guess I'm not sure what you mean by that grasping-ish thing, unless it's similar to what all of the mantids I've raised have done ... if so, yeah I've always thought it was cool, and is especially spectacular with my big Idolos with the great colors/pattern on the insides of their upper arms.

For the big Idolos I get 100 Bluebottle pupae about a month at a time. Some have suggested keeping the pupae in the fridge until needed, then just dropping a few into the enclosure every other day or so, but Rebecca says that they only stay viable for about a week in the fridge and so I let them all hatch in a big hex jar, carefully extract a few flies each day from a small hole, put them to sleep in the fridge and then drop them in with the Idolos. For the little guys I'm on Melanogastors ... the cultures I've gotten from Rebecca have for some reason failed to produce, so I just yesterday ordered a culture from Josh's Frogs, have never had any trouble with his.

Hard to believe that just a few weeks ago the Ghosts had just hatched and were almost as tiny as these pictepennis nymphs ... they're already nearly 3/4-inch!! Having gotten used to raising Ts for so long, I've forgotten how quickly insects grow. lol

Oh, and three L2 wahlberghii nymphs will be arriving tomorrow, so looks like it's mantis mania time around here!

Sounds awesome! I'll be keeping an eye out

.

Yeah, that's really peculiar luck with the ooths.. Hopefully it was just some sort of fluke and you're more successful with others in the future. Have you had any more emerge from the pictipennis ooth than the three from yesterday?

That's a bummer about the male diabolica. I hope you end up with one so you guys can try to get another generation of them. I wish mantises had more of a following.. It's a vicious cycle. High costs because they're not getting bred. And the hobby isn't expanding much because people aren't buying them due to their cost (and lifespan). I'm sure your pictures are sparking people's interests on AB though

.

Thanks for all the info on the flies! I think I'm going to look into purchasing some.

Glad to hear the ghosts you hatched out are doing well! I think mine are nearing maturity now. It's crazy to see the drastic developments of the males' headpieces after each molt!

As for the stretching motion, I'm not referring to the standard grasping with the front arms. Wahlberghii have this peculiar behavior (looks like a kind of ant mimicry almost) where they'll slowly stretch out their arms to either side, in a jerky but composed kind of stretching motion. They're not trying to grab, but looks as if they're waking up from a nap and stretching. It's a behavior I notice them doing more often when they're startled. Are the wahlberghii you're receiving today the first you've had?

Idolomantis ... insane growth! Feeding-time series

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