bad husbandry at a reptile and tarantula dealer

Kaimetsu

Arachnosquire
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Jan 28, 2009
Messages
134
So i've seen what looks to me like bad husbandry practices at a local reptile dealer and i'm not sure what to do about it.

The local nature center where I do presentations with my few snakes and tarantulas wanted a new tarantula of their own, their mature male brachypelma Smithi recently died of old age. I told them i'd look around for a new spider ambassador for them, another calm easy tarantula that was already grown, preferably a female this time. I found someone ten minutes away on Craig's list selling female grammostola rosea's as well as other tarantulas, large lizards, and snakes including expensive ball python morphs, Australian pythons and a burmese python (i thought Burms were illegal in connecticut now but i'm happy to see them available.) Turns out the guy has his own website and it looks decent. I make plans with him to go pick up the G. rosea.

I get there and he's not home, unfortunately I never met him I just talked to and did business with someone i assume was his wife or girlfriend. She leads me into the reptile room, its wall to all tanks, i'm in heaven since I love seeing other peoples collections. I notice a beautiful juvenile reticulated python in one tank. She tells me he has more animals in th e basement. I didn't explore the whole room, I didn't want to go through his reptile room while he wasn't home although I was thinking i'd love to meet him and ask him to show me around. Then I start to notice the husbandry issues.

She hands me the G. rosea in a small critter keeper, she looks healthy to me so I hand her the money, then I notice the water gel in the water dish which I know is bad for tarantulas. I tell her how awesome the retic is then I notice the retic is being housed in the same tank as a similarly sized boa constrictor, they both look to be around four or five feet maybe. I know your not supposed to house different species together, really snakes should be kept separate but I have seen some pet stores do it anyway, maybe its ok for short periods. She noticed how much I like snakes and showed me a plastic bin on the floor with at least half a dozen baby snakes in it including a beautiful all white ball python morph, not sure what its called but it must be expensive. But I also noticed the bin had a mix of baby ball pythons, boa constrictors, and one blood python, then I noticed the blood python was dead. She noticed too and discarded it.

I ended up leaving with the rosea but i'm not sure what to do now. Everything else I noticed seemed correct, substrate and heating, he's keeping some expensive morphs so he must be good at keeping them alive, maybe he doesn't know any better about the tarantula water gel or housing multiple species together. The dead blood python thing makes me angry but maybe I should try being nice, get in touch with him and tell him what he's doing wrong, but what if he won't listen? Is there anything I can do?
 

Najakeeper

Arachnoprince
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,050
Get in touch with him and point to the basic husbandry issues.

If he acts like an a...hole, call the authorities and report animal cruelty.

How were the cages and water dishes? Clean or feces etc. present?

Also multiple baby snakes in bins, different species etc. Not cool at all...
 

freedumbdclxvi

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Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
1,426
A boa and python kept together is a big red flag. Boas can be asymptomatic carriers of IBD and other issues, which pythons are very susceptible to catching. I agree with Naja - touch base with him and let his response guide you in what to do next.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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Acute objectivity is in order

Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet.

Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.

Make a list, as concise as possible, of the problems that you have noted. Cite references that support your findings. Then make an appointment and present your findings in a neutral, objective and positive manner. Depending upon the persons open mindedness and receptivity you can go from there.

Keep in mind, if deliberate actions are causing animals harm where the animal control should be brought in and they intervene, it is possible many of the rescued animals will be destroyed anyway. So you want to promote animal health and support the person in learning how to properly care for them.
 

Kaimetsu

Arachnosquire
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Jan 28, 2009
Messages
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As far as I could tell the water dishes and tanks were all clean. Does anyone have any really good sources I can send him when I contact him, I want the best sources available to help convince him.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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As far as I could tell the water dishes and tanks were all clean. Does anyone have any really good sources I can send him when I contact him, I want the best sources available to help convince him.
Invite him to Arachnoboards.com. It would be quite difficult to find a more dedicated group of people who care about animals and their keeping and are willing to share their experience and insights.
 

Najakeeper

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Messages
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Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet.

Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.
I keep forgetting these. Your house can be raided by cops in Switzerland if somebody calls them and tells them that you are keeping a corn snake in an improper environment.
 

The Snark

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Excessively authoritarian or indifferent and complacent. What disturbs me is the middle of the road, ordinary common sense, is a rarity seldom encountered. America is taking it to the extreme now. You can have rotting animal carcases all over your house and get a warning or a rumor goes around you may be smoking pot and get a SWAT team stomping through in the middle of the night.
 

freedumbdclxvi

Arachnoprince
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
1,426
Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals. Please don't leap on the soap box just yet.

Improper husbandry is not a criminal issue. Lack of knowledge is not a criminal issue. Your opinion by itself is just that; an opinion.
I am going to have to disagree to a point - it will depend on *where* in America you are. I work with people who have reported improper conditions for animals, and local authorities have stepped in and removed animals and/or pressed charges. Granted, in most cases, reptiles weren't involved or they were simply saved by virtue of a dog/cat/horse being reported, but it still can happen.

Edit: one more point. Lack of knowledge also can be a criminal issue. I don't know if the OP is right in his idea that retics are illegal in CT, but if they are, ignorance will not keep you free from consequences.
 

samatwwe

Arachnobaron
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Mar 30, 2009
Messages
365
I wouldn't be so quick to assume he knows how to properly house them only based on the fact that he has some expensive morphs. That means nothing. The fact that he has a luecistic ball python mixed in with multiple snakes and even a dead one shows that he probably truly doesn't care about their well being as long as he makes a profit. There's quite a few breeders out there only in it for the money and could care less about the animals and it's quite ashame. I would definitely contact him and let him know what you think and if things don't change I would report it as animal cruelty as suggested above.
 

Micrathena

Arachnoknight
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
212
I keep forgetting these. Your house can be raided by cops in Switzerland if somebody calls them and tells them that you are keeping a corn snake in an improper environment.
Switzerland sounds great! I would guess that there are less people keeping animals badly there.
 

Dizzle

Arachnoknight
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
230
So i've seen what looks to me like bad husbandry practices at a local reptile dealer and i'm not sure what to do about it.

The local nature center where I do presentations with my few snakes and tarantulas wanted a new tarantula of their own, their mature male brachypelma Smithi recently died of old age. I told them i'd look around for a new spider ambassador for them, another calm easy tarantula that was already grown, preferably a female this time. I found someone ten minutes away on Craig's list selling female grammostola rosea's as well as other tarantulas, large lizards, and snakes including expensive ball python morphs, Australian pythons and a burmese python (i thought Burms were illegal in connecticut now but i'm happy to see them available.) Turns out the guy has his own website and it looks decent. I make plans with him to go pick up the G. rosea.

I get there and he's not home, unfortunately I never met him I just talked to and did business with someone i assume was his wife or girlfriend. She leads me into the reptile room, its wall to all tanks, i'm in heaven since I love seeing other peoples collections. I notice a beautiful juvenile reticulated python in one tank. She tells me he has more animals in th e basement. I didn't explore the whole room, I didn't want to go through his reptile room while he wasn't home although I was thinking i'd love to meet him and ask him to show me around. Then I start to notice the husbandry issues.

She hands me the G. rosea in a small critter keeper, she looks healthy to me so I hand her the money, then I notice the water gel in the water dish which I know is bad for tarantulas. I tell her how awesome the retic is then I notice the retic is being housed in the same tank as a similarly sized boa constrictor, they both look to be around four or five feet maybe. I know your not supposed to house different species together, really snakes should be kept separate but I have seen some pet stores do it anyway, maybe its ok for short periods. She noticed how much I like snakes and showed me a plastic bin on the floor with at least half a dozen baby snakes in it including a beautiful all white ball python morph, not sure what its called but it must be expensive. But I also noticed the bin had a mix of baby ball pythons, boa constrictors, and one blood python, then I noticed the blood python was dead. She noticed too and discarded it.

I ended up leaving with the rosea but i'm not sure what to do now. Everything else I noticed seemed correct, substrate and heating, he's keeping some expensive morphs so he must be good at keeping them alive, maybe he doesn't know any better about the tarantula water gel or housing multiple species together. The dead blood python thing makes me angry but maybe I should try being nice, get in touch with him and tell him what he's doing wrong, but what if he won't listen? Is there anything I can do?
Sneak in and poop in his pillow case?
 

NewAgePrimal

Arachnosquire
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
127
Perhaps a post in the "Seller/Buyer/Shop Inquiries/Warnings" forum is in order. I wouldn't want to purchase a snake from that person and it turn out to be carrying ibd then my other snake die as well. I doubt anyone else would, either.
 

Louise E. Rothstein

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
430
Trying to talk to him may or may not work.

Trying to poop in his pillow case most certainly will not work.

Goes to show which to do.
 

cold blood

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Messages
13,258
Fact: In America you have the right to maim and kill animals.
No you do not. In situations where animals are killed it is required that it is done in a manner deemed as humane. Animal cruelty is a REAL criminal charge that is being taken more and more seriously by law enforcement. Its know to law enforcement that people that commit cruelty acts to animals are significantly more likely to treat other humans with similar disregard or neglect.

---------- Post added 08-26-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------

You can have rotting animal carcases all over your house and get a warning or a rumor goes around you may be smoking pot and get a SWAT team stomping through in the middle of the night.
True as well though, it may not be legal, but it may be very difficult to enforce in some places.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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Messages
11,048
No you do not. In situations where animals are killed it is required that it is done in a manner deemed as humane. Animal cruelty is a REAL criminal charge that is being taken more and more seriously by law enforcement. Its know to law enforcement that people that commit cruelty acts to animals are significantly more likely to treat other humans with similar disregard or neglect.

---------- Post added 08-26-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------



True as well though, it may not be legal, but it may be very difficult to enforce in some places.
I don't ordinarily offer a blatant retort but will make an exception in this case. Speaking as a former LEO, barring a deliberate intentional act, and this depending upon the location as the laws vary drastically from state to state and municipality to municipality. killing and maiming animals is often condoned and in many locations promoted, commonly referred to as 'varmint control'. Even if a person is actually caught practicing casual cruelty towards animals, the usual penalty is a fine, a warning, a reprimand, or in extreme cases, probation and the prohibition of keeping an animal. As example, who hasn't at least heard of popping a few crows or squirrels? Every self respecting rancher carries a 30-30 in the hopes of spotting the invading deer or coyote and the local law enforcement usually looks the other way when a wolf or cougar happens to get in the sights. Take these casual culturally accepted norms to Europe and see what happens.
 

cold blood

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Messages
13,258
I don't ordinarily offer a blatant retort but will make an exception in this case. Speaking as a former LEO, barring a deliberate intentional act, and this depending upon the location as the laws vary drastically from state to state and municipality to municipality. killing and maiming animals is often condoned and in many locations promoted, commonly referred to as 'varmint control'. Even if a person is actually caught practicing casual cruelty towards animals, the usual penalty is a fine, a warning, a reprimand, or in extreme cases, probation and the prohibition of keeping an animal. As example, who hasn't at least heard of popping a few crows or squirrels? Every self respecting rancher carries a 30-30 in the hopes of spotting the invading deer or coyote and the local law enforcement usually looks the other way when a wolf or cougar happens to get in the sights. Take these casual culturally accepted norms to Europe and see what happens.
You're right, my head was in city living, there are certainly places where its not criminal, I was much too broad in my statement....also I was focusing more on the maiming, which I would generally consider as a "deliberate intentional act, not that the op would fall into this, it would not.

Much of my state is woods and lakes, and those people popping animals illegally don't have the luxury of our law enforcement looking the other way in normal cases, but there definitely are such areas, my bad.

Shooting something would often be the humane way to end a life. Varmint control is a far cry from maiming or neglecting an animal kept as a "pet" or even livestock IMO.
 

Micrathena

Arachnoknight
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
212
Not to mention that harming inverts and other "creepy crawlies" usually doesn't count as animal cruelty. Makes me sad.
 
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