Recluse bites and dogs?

PanzoN88

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
713
I had a chihuahua puppy that was supposedly bitten by a brown recluse back in june, what are the
Signs that it was a recluse bite he died from (after the vet gave false advise) and not a wasp sting?
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
11,048
Unless the spider was caught, identified, and placed in proximity to the dog, MMO, it's nothing but guessing and assumptions. Then, assuming there is a smoking gun, there should be some pathological indicators such as necrosis, itching, vomiting and myalgia (loxoscelism). Except for the necrosis there really is nothing that couldn't have been caused by a number of other animal bites or stings. Was a necropsy done? What was the actual cause of death as respiratory or cardiac arrest, septicemia, hemorrhage, organ failure etc?
 

PanzoN88

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
713
Multiple tests were taken, plus it very well could have been organ failure. The vet ended up saying his immune system was not
Fully developed and there was nothing that could be done, but everything was done right. There are pictures of the supposed
Brown recluse bite that i will post for examination if i can remember what device they are saved in.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
11,048
Keep in mind many chihuahua today are extremely inbred and subject to all sorts of chronic conditions, diseases and deficiencies. The immune system is often compromised at birth, inherited from the parents. It is possible that minor ailments mutts easily shake off become debilitating or even terminal diseases. It wouldn't be surprising that advanced loxoscelism precipitated organ failure which is the usual course the condition runs. Was there a necrotic wound?
 

PanzoN88

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
713
It could have been, what the little red mark was or where it came from is still up for speculation.
 

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,336
Did the little red mark deteriorate to a necrotizing wound? What were the other symptoms?
 

PanzoN88

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
713
He would just lay around which for him was definitely not normal. That was about all for the first day. The second day he was
Pooping blood and later he was found by one of my family members barely alive.
 

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,336
He would just lay around which for him was definitely not normal. That was about all for the first day. The second day he was
Pooping blood and later he was found by one of my family members barely alive.
Lethargy and bloody diarrhea can be caused by any one of a number of things. In a young puppy, Parvovirus would be the first suspect. Coccidiosis and other intestinal parasites and protozoa can also debilitate a puppy, especially a small breed puppy, pretty rapidly. Brown recluse bite would probably not make the top ten list of possible diagnoses with those symptoms.
Anaphylaxis from a wasp sting usually results in localized swelling, generalized hives, respiratory distress/failure, vomiting, seizures or death. Any or all of which occur pretty rapidly.
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
Lethargy and bloody diarrhea can be caused by any one of a number of things. In a young puppy, Parvovirus would be the first suspect. Coccidiosis and other intestinal parasites and protozoa can also debilitate a puppy, especially a small breed puppy, pretty rapidly. Brown recluse bite would probably not make the top ten list of possible diagnoses with those symptoms.
Anaphylaxis from a wasp sting usually results in localized swelling, generalized hives, respiratory distress/failure, vomiting, seizures or death. Any or all of which occur pretty rapidly.
Parvo or intestinal parasites are the first thing that came to MY mind, also, as someone who bred dogs for decades. Pooping blood is a primary symptom of Parvovirus, as well as worms, and Parvo is almost always fatal in puppies, regardless of breed, but in a tiny dog it will be especially lethal. Nothing I've read described at all sounds like a spider bite of ANY kind, and honestly, if that was MY vet who'd suggested that a Brown Recluse killed this puppy, I'd be looking around for another vet ASAP! A "little red mark" could have come from anything-a flea, a tick, an ant, or even something not at all related to any invertebrate, like a puncture from a thorn or something or a reaction to something in the environment. To connect that with the puppy hemorrhaging internally is really quite a stretch, and Parvo, Coronavirus or worms(especially whipworms) would all be very likely candidates. If the puppy was young, its immune system is not going to be fully developed anyway, in any puppy, and often people vaccinate puppies too early, which means that lingering maternal antibodies from their mother destroys the vaccine, and when those maternal antibodies wear off, the puppy is left with no protection against a host of highly contagious diseases. If it WAS Parvo, it would be very important for the OP to know that, since this virus is shed in feces and vomit and remains in an outdoor environment for a long, long time, putting any other puppies brought into that same environment at risk of the disease.

pitbulllady
 

PanzoN88

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
713
The vet that usually checks over my animals, is in hartford city, IN, and they did not have emergency services like the one here
In ohio did. Had to go all the way to dayton for a second opinion at 1 in the morning, but, there was nothing that could be done.
The perfectly round red mark baffled the vet also. Only conclusion i have is, maybe it was a recluse bite, wasp sting, but the
Only obvious thing could be the parvovirus.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
11,048
I'm not seeing how the conclusion was reached ... correction, I see it but this is extremely tenuous. A bite like mark and one of the effects of recluse venom being thrombocytopenia. But in making that logical leap a whole lot of other possibilities were jumped over.
Formerphobe and PBL covered the bases admirably. Let this be a learning lesson in doing one's own detective work and not taking a supposed experts word as absolute truth.

The sad fact is some, or many, medical authorities love scapegoats instead of admitting they don't have a clue or their treatment was based on a faulty diagnosis. Enter a possible bite into the equation and the authority has his/her ass covered. It's not like the recluse is going to whip out it's log book and go, 'Nope. I was busy in Galveston that week.'

I won't discount the perfectly round red mark as being a possible recluse bite. Maybe the pup found the perfect place to take a nap on top of a dozen recluse. It would certainly be a good idea to do a major house search. But just going by the generally known statistics we have what, a few tens of thousands of cases of parvo alone for every significant recluse munch. From what I have read, in some areas parvo is so prevalent, a near 100% infection rate, it is hard to get the serum in and up and running before the virus takes hold, as PBL described.
 
Last edited:

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
I'm not seeing how the conclusion was reached ... correction, I see it but this is extremely tenuous. A bite like mark and one of the effects of recluse venom being thrombocytopenia. But in making that logical leap a whole lot of other possibilities were jumped over.
Formerphobe and PBL covered the bases admirably. Let this be a learning lesson in doing one's own detective work and not taking a supposed experts word as absolute truth.

The sad fact is some, or many, medical authorities love scapegoats instead of admitting they don't have a clue or their treatment was based on a faulty diagnosis. Enter a possible bite into the equation and the authority has his/her ass covered. It's not like the recluse is going to whip out it's log book and go, 'Nope. I was busy in Galveston that week.'

I won't discount the perfectly round red mark as being a possible recluse bite. Maybe the pup found the perfect place to take a nap on top of a dozen recluse. It would certainly be a good idea to do a major house search. But just going by the generally known statistics we have what, a few tens of thousands of cases of parvo alone for every significant recluse munch. From what I have read, in some areas parvo is so prevalent, a near 100% infection rate, it is hard to get the serum in and up and running before the virus takes hold, as PBL described.
Parvo is like the Influenza virus; there are multiple strains, and the virus is constantly mutating, so that vaccine manufacturers have a struggle to second-guess which strain will hit what area and to try and stay one step ahead of the virus's ability to mutate. This makes effective vaccination difficult at best. A vet might buy a stock of vaccines only to have a mutated strain not affected by that particular batch of vaccines break out, so that even vaccinated dogs get sick, and of course, there's that issue with maternal antibodies in puppies that I mentioned earlier. There are some totally new and as of yet, undiagnosed viruses making their rounds through certain parts of the US, especially in New England and the Mid Atlantic states, which have no vaccine preventative and which are proving especially deadly. These originated in "rescue" dogs imported from impoverished countries, to meet the demand for such dogs in those areas. Pennsylvania is a really hart-hit state for one of these unknown viruses, and Ohio is right next door.

pitbulllady
 
Top