3-4" obt female breedable?

Ultum4Spiderz · Sep 21, 2014

I was wondering at what size this species is fully mature:biggrin:
thanks

fuzzyavics72 · Sep 21, 2014

If she's over four inches yes, but if she's under I would say no. P murinus top out at 5.5 inches, but I've seen some specimens get over 6 inches.

gobey · Sep 22, 2014

My friend is breeding one we just got shipped to us that's 4"

freedumbdclxvi · Sep 22, 2014

http://tarantulas.tropica.ru/files/images/pt_murinus_exuvia1.jpg
When the spermathecae look like this, she's ready.

Poec54 · Sep 22, 2014

Like the market isn't already glutted with P murinus? What's the hurry? What are you planning on doing with the slings? A lot of dealers don't want more than they already have. 3" is ridiculous to try to breed one. She's stilling putting her resources into growing herself. They may be sexually mature at 4", but I'd wait until they hit 4.5 or 5" so that their body isn't stressed as much. Do you want you 10 year old daughter having a baby?

gobey · Sep 22, 2014

Poec54 said:
Like the market isn't already glutted with P murinus? What's the hurry? What are you planning on doing with the slings? A lot of dealers don't want more than they already have. 3" is ridiculous to try to breed one. She's stilling putting her resources into growing herself. They may be sexually mature at 4", but I'd wait until they hit 4.5 or 5" so that their body isn't stressed as much. Do you want you 10 year old daughter having a baby?

Serious question. What kind of stress does it have on a tarantulas body physically to breed at earliest sexual maturity? Can it harm it? Carry on into future molts?

Not challenging your input. Just curious.

Poec54 · Sep 22, 2014

gobey said:
Serious question. What kind of stress does it have on a tarantulas body physically to breed at earliest sexual maturity? Can it harm it? Carry on into future molts?

A lot like a 10 year old girl having a baby. When the mother is still a ways off from her adult size, resources that are normally used for growth have to be split between that and egg production. That can easily mean a smaller sac and a lower (or no) survival rate. Again, what's the rush? Give her another shed or two so her body will be ready. If it's a common species that floods the market every year like P murinus, what's the point? Even worse, is that murinus often double clutch, and for a small mother that may have just hit puberty, it's another blow to her body. In the wild they may (or may not) reproduce as soon as they possibly can, but there the emphasis is on mass production of slings, and its not a big deal if the female's life is shortened. Is that the goal in captivity?

gobey · Sep 23, 2014

Poec54 said:
A lot like a 10 year old girl having a baby. When the mother is still a ways off from her adult size, resources that are normally used for growth have to be split between that and egg production. That can easily mean a smaller sac and a lower (or no) survival rate. Again, what's the rush? Give her another shed or two so her body will be ready. If it's a common species that floods the market every year like P murinus, what's the point? Even worse, is that murinus often double clutch, and for a small mother that may have just hit puberty, it's another blow to her body. In the wild they may (or may not) reproduce as soon as they possibly can, but there the emphasis is on mass production of slings, and its not a big deal if the female's life is shortened. Is that the goal in captivity?

Noted then.

JohnDapiaoen · Sep 23, 2014

:sarcasm:--There's still no proof to support those claims, Rick. Best anyone can do is check the development on the tarantula spermatheca. Keep in mind tarantulas mature at different rates, a clear example can be seen when some males hook out early at small sizes; of which, if I may add, I've mated before with no problems concerning sling development; therefore, some females can mature early at small sizes. It's good to listen to the elder T keepers but they are not always right.

-JohnD.

skippydude · Sep 23, 2014

gobey said:
My friend is breeding one we just got shipped to us that's 4"

She is probably more like 4 1/2" and her spermathecae was nice and dark on the last molt. I think she'll do just fine. My concern was more that she may be due to molt and the pairing will be a wasted effort. No harm in pairing her, just a good chance that she'll shed the sperm away and you'll have to pair her again.

Smokehound714 · Sep 23, 2014

You'll get larger sacs with many more eggs if you let her grow a bit. Larger spider= larger eggs= larger average size.

Poec54 · Sep 23, 2014

JohnDapiaoen said:
:sarcasm:--There's still no proof to support those claims, Rick. Best anyone can do is check the development on the tarantula spermatheca. Keep in mind tarantulas mature at different rates, a clear example can be seen when some males hook out early at small sizes; of which, if I may add, I've mated before with no problems concerning sling development; therefore, some females can mature early at small sizes. It's good to listen to the elder T keepers but they are not always right.

Having a spermatheca and using it are two different things, hence my analogy to 10 year old girls, who also have the required equipment. In both cases, sexual maturity may be reached before it's a good idea to actually reproduce. While there are no studies on just about anything tarantula-related, this is based on my experiences, and from discussions with Anastasia who told me that small, first time mothers tend to have pitifully small sacs. In threads on this topic, I have yet to hear of a good reason why someone CAN'T wait for another shed or two. When you're dealing with long-lived invertebrates, why try to get sacs from females that are a year or two old? They live to be 10 or 20 years old, why not allow their bodies to get closer to full size? I don't understand the Beat-The-Clock thinking. And for a dime-a-dozen species like murinus, it's especially questionable. Not like every dealer doesn't already have all they want.

pyro fiend · Sep 23, 2014

Smokehound714 said:
You'll get larger sacs with many more eggs if you let her grow a bit. Larger spider= larger eggs= larger average size.

isnt this kinda true in all animals? well not the sack part XD

iv done my own experiments with my rats letting a small hardly matured rat have a litter, ofcourse its always small instead of 12-15 like i usually get its like 8ish but iv noticed the babies, even if they have a matured mom playing nanny, they just dont end up the same size as they should have. as to the female eventually grows up as big as her mom, the grandbabies are maybe 3/4 their typical size and even if i wait till the babies are 4 or 5 months old. or even a year. their babies also seem kinda small [tho when paired with my 4xl males some pop out normal] o.0

Poec54 · Sep 23, 2014

pyro fiend said:
isnt this kinda true in all animals? well not the sack part XD

iv done my own experiments with my rats letting a small hardly matured rat have a litter, ofcourse its always small instead of 12-15 like i usually get its like 8ish but iv noticed the babies, even if they have a matured mom playing nanny, they just dont end up the same size as they should have. as to the female eventually grows up as big as her mom, the grandbabies are maybe 3/4 their typical size and even if i wait till the babies are 4 or 5 months old. or even a year. their babies also seem kinda small [tho when paired with my 4xl males some pop out normal] o.0

Good points. And what's the likelihood of a 10 or 12 year old human having a full-size, healthy baby? What does it do to the mother?

gobey · Sep 23, 2014

Interesting topic. I'll be sure to see what the results of the breeding are between the OBTs he paired. The deed is already done so nothing can be done really but take notes. But I'll keep this stuff in mind. However Idk if I really ever want to be the breeder lol. Especially for OW spiders.

Anyway we'll see if she molts too.

Still. Good topic

skippydude · Sep 23, 2014

I have a very good question?

"We have laws against mating 10 year old humans. Do you think a young sexually mature tarantula is not going to get bred in the wild?"

IMO fast growing T's like OBT are geared for early breeding, it guarantees survival of the species. I'm betting mother nature or evolution favors the younger ladies being bred in the wild. I have no scientific proof of this, just sharing my thoughts for discussion

JohnDapiaoen · Sep 23, 2014

Awe, skip, you beat me to it! The 10 year old human girl was mentioned three times so someone had to give a rebuttal.

I'll just add. A human 10 year old girl's and and rodent's anatomy are insanely different. Forget comparing apple's and oranges, I see it as comparing apple's and beet's.

-JohnD.

Poec54 · Sep 23, 2014

JohnDapiaoen said:
Awe, skip, you beat me to it! The 10 year old human girl was mentioned three times so someone had to give a rebuttal..

Well, I guess Anastasia must be mistaken. Your breeding experience no doubt surpasses hers.

---------- Post added 09-23-2014 at 02:21 PM ----------

skippydude said:
I have a very good question?

"We have laws against mating 10 year old humans. Do you think a young sexually mature tarantula is not going to get bred in the wild?"

I already addressed your very good question. As I said, in the big picture, it doesn't really matter if a young female spider gets burnt-out from cranking out egg sacs and shortens her life, the species goes on. Is that how you want to treat captive spiders? Especially for a species that floods the market annually. Just like should it be a race to breed young parahybana females? In both cases, you could wind up sitting on slings while you try to find a dealer to take them.

---------- Post added 09-23-2014 at 02:23 PM ----------

JohnDapiaoen said:
I'll just add. A human 10 year old girl's and and rodent's anatomy are insanely different.

You missed a promising career in the medical field.

JohnDapiaoen · Sep 23, 2014

If all you have is "he said she said" comments, and mammalian comparisons to arachnids then clearly you need to rethink your argument. Telling people to not breed a known species can't be good for the hobby, no harm in doing so. Burn out her life you say, hmm? I believe we had a discussion about this before, correct me if I'm wrong...

-JohnD.

Poec54 · Sep 23, 2014

JohnDapiaoen said:
I believe we had a discussion about this before, correct me if I'm wrong...

Yes, and I'm hoping that one day you'll be able to get over me telling you that getting an 'expensive' MM subfusca for your very young female wasn't a great idea. You've had it out for me ever since then. It's time to get over that.

3-4" obt female breedable?

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