Sheetweb spider information?

Hey does anyone know anything about sheetweb spiders? A friend o' mine sent me a photo that looked to me like maybe it could be a species to that effect, (it wasn't exactly a perfect photo for IDing, lol, I told him I couldn't be sure,) but it made me realize that I don't really know a whole lot about sheetweb spiders... and I can't really find much information about them on the interwebz.

Does anyone here have any first-hand experience with them? Are they nocturnal? Diurnal? Mating seasons? Behavioral habits? Geographical range? Feel free to post anything or any good info links you know--just for curiosity's and discussion's sakes.

Thanks guys!

Are you talking about Agelenopsis aka grass spider?

Linyphiids?

Also not sure what kind of spider you're referring to.

aaarg said:

Linyphiids?

Also not sure what kind of spider you're referring to.

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That's what I was thinking, did a Google search and found this: http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/Linyphiidae/Linyphiidae.htm
Could this be to what the OP is referring? Hope this helps.

Yeah I am talking more Linyphiidae--sorry for not being clear, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm talking about myself...

Are spider species ever just characterized into general groups at all? Jumping spiders, crab spiders, funnel weavers, sheetweb spiders... etc etc?

JayDangerVL said:

Yeah I am talking more Linyphiidae--sorry for not being clear, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm talking about myself...

Are spider species ever just characterized into general groups at all? Jumping spiders, crab spiders, funnel weavers, sheetweb spiders... etc etc?

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Yea but no but yea but no.

It's like common names with tarantulas. There's so much room for misunderstanding and it only gets worse in a multinational board like AB(in finnish only Pardosa are called wolf spiders and Lycosidae as whole are "running spiders" and Linyphiidae are called "hanging spiders").
And then there's stuff like Ancylometes that are wandering spiders by family(Ctenidae) but are called and act like fishing spiders(usually the name for Pisauridae family, which are acually called nursery web spiders).

Confused enough?

It's all perfectly bewildering, yes, but let's see if I can still fall even deeper into the pool of spider identification confusion.

Why on earth do I run into sites that will (in addition to scientific names) label spiders as "sheetweb weavers", "dwarf spiders", or "lampshade weavers", "orb weavers", etc, especially if it's going to be different between regions? I understand that the proper way to go about talking about spiders is with scientific names, but then why bother with the common names at all, if that's just going to promote the confusion?

Can anyone sort out the "common names" business for me? Or... am I making a pointless effort, here?

JayDangerVL said:

It's all perfectly bewildering, yes, but let's see if I can still fall even deeper into the pool of spider identification confusion.

Why on earth do I run into sites that will (in addition to scientific names) label spiders as "sheetweb weavers", "dwarf spiders", or "lampshade weavers", "orb weavers", etc, especially if it's going to be different between regions? I understand that the proper way to go about talking about spiders is with scientific names, but then why bother with the common names at all, if that's just going to promote the confusion?

Can anyone sort out the "common names" business for me? Or... am I making a pointless effort, here?

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Sort out... Why yes! I can! Put the lime in the coconut... Heading back to the bio courses...
1. Common names are location, local language and even culture originated. Very often the original describing scientist will use these local names. Obviously those names will often vary depending upon location and language differences. Then it gets skewed even more as the names are adopted into English. IE Transliterated.
2. Scientific names come about from variations in the biological make up of the animal. While these are more exacting and specific, some differences will come about.
3. Nearly everything we known about the local and scientific names are now throw in the washing machine as DNA is completely reordering many animals.
Example, Giant Crab Spider from one locales terminology, Huntsman from another broader locale terminology, Sparassidae from initial examination of the animals scientifically, and now DNA tearing apart the entire family as Heteropoda doesn't encompass or properly identify and classify all genera.

What Jaeger wrote me about an obvious 'Sparassid' ID request pretty much sums it up: We're reclassifying things. Check back in 10 years.


To expound on this naming mismanagement. Take Heteropoda Maxima, the newly discovered worlds largest spider. First, it has no common name. Locally it and various other sparassids have been given the name cave spider but that has been discounted as they are found outside of caves more often than in them. Then, Dr. Jaeger was the first to identify and describe the animal and he had no reason to come up with a common name.

Now take another sprassid pictured below. This spider has no common name either. It has been described recently but before a more accurate identification could be made, it got caught up in the reclassifying of the Sparassid family ala DNA testing. So this spider got tossed into an identification limbo.

The limbo is exactly that. H Maxima, the tiger striped whatsit and a number of the other sparassids are caught up in this. The comnmon names, if they even exist, are useless. The scientific names are now in doubt. The new identification process using DNA is the reverse of the standard top down practice of comparing various animal traits as genitalia and ordering them accordingly. The DNA tests are bottom up, finding which, if any genera are the same or similar then working back up the tree. This sometimes results in shifting genera of an animal and not even the established scientific names may hold up to this new litmus test. Common names become worthless and often cross index animals as the recent reclassifying Pardosa.

Take a look at the screw uppus maximus of the Lycosidae. The original common name was true tarantula. That got tossed out the window early on. The common name given them was wolf spider, genus Lycosa and everything sailed along smoothly for a while. Then they suddenly what no, Pardosa is not lycosa and a new genus has to be cranked out. So wolf spider only refers to the family. And now, pending DNA testing, a whole ship load of new genera are probably going to come about and common names will automatically become more and more generalized and inaccurate .
The reason why this is going so slowly is mostly funding. The big bucks that toss research a few $$$ now and then often have more important fish to fry like determining what genus creatures like Amy Winehouse, Phil Spector and Rush Limbaugh are in.

Now that everybody is scratching their heads in confusion, let's take a step back and make things easier(and actually aswering the OPs question).

Common names are generally used to make thing simple for the common man(or woman).
Andy Avarage is interested in nature. Andy how ever doesn't give a poop if that nice looking grawlie running in his livingroom is a Pardosa, Alopecosa, Araneus or a Heteropoda. You tell Andy "it's a wolf spider" or "a huntsman spider. Andy is now happy to know it's this kind of spider that does things that and this way and can't harm his kids. That different looking gall on his garden that made this beautiful orb shaped web on the other hand is an "orb weaver". Again Andy is happy.

It's the scientists and us nuts that like to know the spesific species or atleast the genus. We're not satisfied with "spider"or "orb weaver" like car nuts aren't satisfied with "car" or even "SUV".. What make? Model?
I don't care...It's JUST A CAR.

Hanska said:

Now that everybody is scratching their heads in confusion, let's take a step back and make things easier(and actually aswering the OPs question).

Common names are generally used to make thing simple for the common man(or woman).
Andy Avarage is interested in nature. Andy how ever doesn't give a poop if that nice looking grawlie running in his livingroom is a Pardosa, Alopecosa, Araneus or a Heteropoda. You tell Andy "it's a wolf spider" or "a huntsman spider. Andy is now happy to know it's this kind of spider that does things that and this way and can't harm his kids. That different looking gall on his garden that made this beautiful orb shaped web on the other hand is an "orb weaver". Again Andy is happy.

It's the scientists and us nuts that like to know the spesific species or atleast the genus. We're not satisfied with "spider"or "orb weaver" like car nuts aren't satisfied with "car" or even "SUV".. What make? Model?
I don't care...It's JUST A CAR.

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A little mental masturbation from ruminating on Sagan, Hawking, Darwin and Einstein.
The question is asked of the scientist, "Just what purpose does knowing the exact identification of an animal have?"
The reply, "For those who only live and interact in the immediate present, there is very little if any meaning or value. For those who are aware that all life is a series of progressions, they realize that all this knowledge is a window through which we can look backwards in time. The greater the knowledge, the more accurate the time line and where we presently are upon it."
Again, the question may be asked, what purpose does this serve?
The reply, "What purpose do we serve in the grand scale of the cosmos?"

In an effort to preserve ones sanity at this point it is suggested to go watch Monty Python's Meaning of Life while clutching an alcoholic beverage.

The Snark said:

The common names, if they even exist, are useless. The scientific names are now in doubt.

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I'm... lol I didn't actually expect to be so satisfied with this thread--but here I am, grinning. Good to know that spider identification's kind of in constant re-order.

And Hanska, I think that was a really good way of putting it--the comparison to cars really makes sense for me. (I also know zero things about cars.) But it seems, the cars all seem to have their "Genus Species" in order, haha. At least the car people can agree on what's what.

Still though--while Andy Average may be perfectly satisfied hearing "Oh it's a Wolf Spider," that... doesn't really help if it is in fact, a funnel-weaving grass spider. Or Agelenopsis, since we're talking scientific names too. While it might not matter to him because now he knows that it won't hurt his kids--well... now he thinks all wolf spiders are huge and weave webs to catch their prey. That's... a little different from a person mistaking a Hummer for a mini van. The common names don't really help anyone if nobody can decide what common name describes which group of spiders. And yet I still see common names tacked onto spiders as if they do hold some kind of consistency--so I mention "sheetweb spiders" on a spider forum and nobody knows what I'm talking about.

I get that spider identification isn't perfect, and likely, it might not ever be--due to the complexity of the study and the sheer number and variety in species. And that's fine. Actually, I don't have any problem with that. I enjoy learning and using the scientific names.

But y'all might have to bear with me if I slip up and use another confusing common term.

*ahem*

So... as I was actually saying in the OP, lol, does anyone have any solid information on the family Linyphiidae? More specifically, the subfamily Linyphiinae? (If Wikipedia isn't misleading me on the proper scientific names?)

Disclaimer: I actively avoid Linyphiidae wherever possible in my spider-career. Salticidae? "Fun challenge!" Linyphiidae? "UGH NO THANKS"

My understanding of the Linyphiids is that while some 100% belong together, others have been thrown in because 1) small, 2) spins a sheet web (never mind that almost all spiders are capable of spinning "sheet webs" at some stage in life). As far as species in Linyphiinae, they're generally physically larger than species in Erigoninae, the other big subfamily, and I think they're taxonomically less messy. What kind of info are you looking for, anything really?

Edit to add: Some are out 24/7 (Frontinella and Pityohyphantes at least), they're found worldwide, I have no idea on behavioral habits. In my experience Frontinella males and females will cohabit in a single web for a period of time, but I doubt that's standard for the whole subfamily.

Just looking for general facts--anything I can tell a person when they say, "Hey what's this spider? What's it like? What's it do? How does it hunt? How is it different from other spider species? What makes it special?" Etc etc.

I've seen a couple of these guys here and there, too. Once crawling across a wall, another across my door. I've heard that some spiders are accustomed to living in dwellings. Would these be considered "indoor spiders"? Or do these mostly hang out outside?

JayDangerVL said:

Just looking for general facts--anything I can tell a person when they say, "Hey what's this spider? What's it like? What's it do? How does it hunt? How is it different from other spider species? What makes it special?" Etc etc.

I've seen a couple of these guys here and there, too. Once crawling across a wall, another across my door. I've heard that some spiders are accustomed to living in dwellings. Would these be considered "indoor spiders"? Or do these mostly hang out outside?

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Let's get it in context a bit. Linyphiidae are to spiders what gymnosperms or angiosperms are to trees. Essentially, you are talking about half the entire worlds spider population. Their diversity runs the entire gamut from equatorial to arctic and more or less the only thing they all have in common are sheet webs.

I'm afraid Snark's basically right on this one, if a little hyperbolic.

Linyphiids mostly hang upside down in their webs, which are sheet-like, but often in different shapes and in different kinds of places; other than that, you'll be better off figuring out what notable common species are around you and learning a bit about them at a genus or species level. For example, the linyphiine people notice and ask about in the SE US tend to be Frontinella, Florinda, Neriene, and Pityohyphantes, all of which are pretty distinct and unique.

I'm looking for information! There's zero need to apologize for anyone being right! XD

I'm glad for the narrowing down. You guys think there's not much to be said over such a huge net of spider species, but even this general information is exactly what I was hoping for! Just having examples of common species is a great help--I should have asked for that from the beginning.

See, my specialty is jumpers. I know jumpers, and that's about it--with a few basic orb weaver and grass spider facts thrown in. So hearing even the slightest bit of information on--well, what is apparently the rest of the spider world--anyway it's all news to me. I'm eating this up.

How are cobweb spiders (or, Theridiidae, I guess?) different from spiders that make (and hang upside down from) sheet webs? (I know that's probably another huge family with an innumerable amount of species, but... are there major differences?) Do the species of spiders under the common names "cobweb" and "sheetweb" overlap at all?

I think we can clear some of the confusion here. The largest family of described spiders are the salticids, jumpers, at around 5000 species. Next are the Linyphiidae with around 4500* and then the theridiidae with around 2200.

The first problem dealing with Linyfuds is many are tiny and not readily identifiable, even under a microscope. Being so small and so numerous they are the big question mark family with members being newly identified or misidentified constantly, literally, they do the scrambled eggs bit of some portion of the family on a daily basis.

What do they look like? Aggravatingly nondescript. No unusual or remarkable aspects in color or shape.

Mature Linyfuds, depending on the make and model, average .5mm to 3mm, Nearly all make sheet webs, varying from several would fit on the average thumbnail up to a few inches or even a half foot across. One of their common modes of prey capture is to hang under the web and pull victims down through the sheet.

They are the ballooning fanatics of the spider world and even the mature adults will balloon. Sometimes large groups will balloon all at once, and clouds of them can be seen drifting about. Why they do this, a form of migration, is unknown.

*It has been estimated that most of the Linyfud family remains unidentified and described. Unlike other spider species, many simply don't display enough difference to tell them apart. One estimate I read was the expert wouldn't be surprised if there were 50,000 different species and sub species.

The Snark said:

I think we can clear some of the confusion here. The largest family of described spiders are the salticids, jumpers, at around 5000 species. Next are the Linyphiidae with around 4500* and then the theridiidae with around 2200.

The first problem dealing with Linyfuds is many are tiny and not readily identifiable, even under a microscope. Being so small and so numerous they are the big question mark family with members being newly identified or misidentified constantly, literally, they do the scrambled eggs bit of some portion of the family on a daily basis.

What do they look like? Aggravatingly nondescript. No unusual or remarkable aspects in color or shape.

Mature Linyfuds, depending on the make and model, average .5mm to 3mm, Nearly all make sheet webs, varying from several would fit on the average thumbnail up to a few inches or even a half foot across. One of their common modes of prey capture is to hang under the web and pull victims down through the sheet.

They are the ballooning fanatics of the spider world and even the mature adults will balloon. Sometimes large groups will balloon all at once, and clouds of them can be seen drifting about. Why they do this, a form of migration, is unknown.

*It has been estimated that most of the Linyfud family remains unidentified and described. Unlike other spider species, many simply don't display enough difference to tell them apart. One estimate I read was the expert wouldn't be surprised if there were 50,000 different species and sub species.

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*titillated squeal* I am the happiest human. That does clear up a lot, thank you.

So then, why isn't Theridiidae a subfamily to Linyphiidae? Is the difference in web structure, or in body build?

JayDangerVL said:

*titillated squeal* I am the happiest human. That does clear up a lot, thank you.

So then, why isn't Theridiidae a subfamily to Linyphiidae? Is the difference in web structure, or in body build?

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To answer in a nutshell, they, the families, stand side by side according to evolutionary taxonomy. Evolutionary taxonomy? In order to better understand that you need to read up on Linnaean Taxonomy.
To simplify, all organisms listed on the same rung on the ladder of scientific classification share biochemical or morphological traits but diverged from each other on the rung before it. In the case of the two families, Theridiidae and Linyphiidae, they share traits but diverged in the superfamily Araneoidea.

Suggested reading: Cladistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladistics

Examples
Araneoidea are a superfamily of araneomorph spiders. They contain families of eight-eyed spiders:

Anapidae
Araneidae
Cyatholipidae
Linyphiidae
Mysmenidae
Nephilidae
Nesticidae
Pimoidae
Sinopimoidae[1]
Symphytognathidae
Synaphridae
Synotaxidae
Tetragnathidae
Theridiidae
Theridiosomatidae

Now compare to the Brown Recluse, Loxosceles. They share the common ancestry Aranaea but diverged into the Sicariidae family with six eyes and other morphological differences.

As a footnote, the scientific classifications within the kingdoms, Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Protista, Archaea, and Bacteria, have evolved. First Linnaean, then Evolutionary using the Darwinian theory, and the newest methodology, Phylogenetics. Each subsequent method corrects and accurizes the previous. Phylogenetics is still in it's infancy and as advances are made a lot of major reordering comes about farther down the taxonomic ranks.

Addendum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphology_(biology)
Further explanation of morphological differences.
Take as an example the four cobras common to Thailand. The King Cobra was identified early on as being in it's own genus. That left 3, Kaouthai, Siamensis and Isanensis, identified by their morphological similarities and differences.
Along came phylogenetics and instantly identified that Isanensis had the same genes as Siamensis and Siamensis possessed greater commonality in the genus and Isanensis was simply a variation due to environmental factors. Therefore Siamensis came first. Exuent Isanensis. 3 Cobras, one of which technically isn't a 'true' cobra. Morphology only goes so far accuracy wise.