Anomalous Behavior of the P. Murinus

Brandon F

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So, Firstly hello. This is my first post, and I walk into it knowing that I most likely will illicit a negative response from the overwhelming majority who will think me soft in the head, or incapable of higher reasoning. However, I implore you to refrain from what will most likely be your instinctual negative reaction to what I am asking.

I have been accused of being overly communicative (long winded :).) So bear with me I will try. I have been keeping true spiders since I could coordinate myself well enough to catch them. I started with Hogna Aspersa that I caught in my backyard growing up. They are amazing creatures, and quite defensive when they have sacs; I found this out the hard way. I progressed to the Argiope aurantia, and kept one in a critter keeper on my dresser following her entire life cycle and the emergence of her spiderlings. I felt a deep and profound sadness from this, she gave everything that she had to ensure that they had the opportunity to exist. This had to be something like twenty-five years ago. I think I was around eight or so. The following summer, my ceaseless curiosity could finally no longer be contained when I came across a female Latrodectus mactans in my grandparent's barn. I caught it, and kept it for a number of months, out of a desire to observe its habits and life. This became a problem when my grandmother realized what was in the kritter keeper (she wasn't stupid just not very observant of my hobby :).) And I almost gave my poor grandmother a coronary; I quite possibly got lucky, as I did handle the specimen. I will say in my defense I was only nine or ten, though I did know what could happen, I don't think that a mind that young can fully comprehend the consequences. I also maintained a collection of Dysdera crocata, and fed them from a colony of roly polies that I started. When I was young I thought that I was going to be an arachnologist, but as I got older my ADD inhibited my tolerance for the scientific process :)... I have a career where I am constantly moving and this is much better for me.

Fast forward about ten years, and I am older but find that the fever from that first H. Aspersa never really went away. I started keeping T's, only G. rosea because that is what was readily available, keep in mind at the time windows XP was the next big thing and e-commerce was still an emerging technology, so I had to go to the pet store. If this were not the case I would have gotten in way over my head almost immediately. Recently I have been keeping Latrodectus geometricus. There is a huge population around the stairs to my apartment, and as I could find very little information about them I just had to observe one.

Which brings me to the question at hand. I happened across some of RobC's videos on youtube, and his almost child like excitement and love for his T's rekindled my own love for these majestic creatures. This man is a credit to the hobby in my opinion. I am not quite ready to commit to the OW arboreals, speed, unpredictability, fragility, etc. I just know I am going to regret that comment, but that is the way that I see it after having read a considerable number of bite reports, and researching the needs of these species. Keep in mind that as I see it I am referring to "Pokies" when I think arboreal. I have little interest in NW species, not that they are not spectacular in their own right, I am just very sensitive to the urticating hairs. I learned this with the G. rosea. I also don't really identify with them. There is however, an OW species that I do identify with. The P. Murinus.
I have spent the last few weeks or so reading everything that I could about them, as well as watching as many videos as I could featuring these amazing spiders. I know that it will be a "pet hole" and can be prone to highly defensive behavior, my hope is that those who read this will see that I know what I am getting into, and will genuinely try to assist me in my quest for knowledge about this species. I have seen specimens with my own eyes fang the walls of their enclosures in reaction to the vibrations of people entering the room and approaching said enclosure. I have read every bite report that
I could and have also seen first hand the results of an envenomation. There were tears and agony and a general sense of confusion, and this guy was around 215 pounds, so I definitely have a respect for the consequences of carelessness.

So, please realize that I know full well what I am getting myself into. I am not necessarily a neopyhte when it comes to arachnids with a medically significant venom, that being said, I will admit that I have very little experience with Therophosids. I am also not going to just jump in feet first, I am just wondering if a few of you who have experience with
the P. murinus will chime in so to speak on a couple of questions that I have. I am trying to amass a body of knowledge
before I commit to the care and responsibility of one of these beautiful creatures.

Specifically, I am wondering about handling them. I don't mean that I want to handle one. I have been envenomated
before, luckily by spiders far less potent, and found it to be less than a pleasurable experience. I am just
curious about videos of people that have recorded themselves handling them, I know that it is possible I just can't
work it out. By all of the descriptions that I have read, these creatures are to be treated like a loaded gun for lack of
a better expression, yet I have seen first hand people letting then walk on their hands, with little regard. I have even
seen a video of a person that has a P. murinus enclosed in his hand, and it even started webbing inside his hand. This
video can be seen by searching "Orange Bitey Thing My (insert the most common vulgarity used to refer to the human
posterior here)" I just found it to be an anomaly in the "normal" stated behavior of the species, and was curious if it
was something experienced by other keepers. I will never know first hand as I have a deep and paralyzing fear of
hospitals.

I also feel prepared for the more defensive species because I have never owned a T that was not defensive. My wife and
I nicknamed the G. rosea that we had baboon because it's opisthosoma was always bald, and we never saw anything but fangs
when the business end was facing us.

Glad to meet you all, and Thank You in advance for your replies. By the way, I just have add that every time I hear
the song "Red Again" by Chevelle I cannot help but get the image of a P. Murinus in threat posture out of my head. Man
I love this species.
 

BobGrill

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
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Jan 25, 2011
Messages
1,669
I can't conceive of one handling this species without ending up with several holes in their hand in the process. Let me just ask you something, have you researched how to properly transfer and manipulate fast moving species like this? I mean researching techniques such as the "bag method" and what tools to have at your disposal (paint brush, tongs, catch cup) ?
 

Arachnomaniac19

Arachnolord
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Messages
652
I wouldn't get one yet. Get a Psalmopoeus species, then a Poecilotheria species (regalis, metallica, and hanumavilasumica are, in my opinion, the best starters) or a Ceratogyrus species, then once you feel comfortable with the tarantulas mentioned, get an OBT. You should start with a sling (spiderling) or each species so you can adjust your feelings for true speed on them.
 

Poec54

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
4,745
Specifically, I am wondering about handling them. I don't mean that I want to handle one. I have been envenomated
before, luckily by spiders far less potent, and found it to be less than a pleasurable experience. I am just
curious about videos of people that have recorded themselves handling them, I know that it is possible I just can't
work it out. By all of the descriptions that I have read, these creatures are to be treated like a loaded gun for lack of
a better expression, yet I have seen first hand people letting then walk on their hands, with little regard. I have even
seen a video of a person that has a P. murinus enclosed in his hand, and it even started webbing inside his hand. This
video can be seen by searching "Orange Bitey Thing My (insert the most common vulgarity used to refer to the human
posterior here)" I just found it to be an anomaly in the "normal" stated behavior of the species, and was curious if it
was something experienced by other keepers. I will never know first hand as I have a deep and paralyzing fear of
hospitals.
The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots. Is that you want to be? If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned. This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.
 

Arachnomaniac19

Arachnolord
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Messages
652
The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots. Is that you want to be? If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned. This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.
OR showing that some individuals can vary from the species general temperament, even though there is a chance that they can get bit. Don't get me wrong, I'm COMPLETELY against handling any tarantula species, I'm just putting in another side of the argument.
 

Brandon F

Arachnopeon
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Sep 28, 2014
Messages
0
The people that handle OBT's are either showing off: 'Look at me', or idiots. Is that you want to be? If so, so don't expect positive reactions from us. Those stunts can eventually get tarantulas banned. This hobby isn't about egos, thrill seekers, and guys looking to prove their masculinity.[/QUOTE

Please don't misunderstand, I have absolutely no interest in being on the news, and as I have previously mentioned, I have a paralyzing fear of hospitals. I will not be attempting to handle ANY OW species. I was more curious about the anomalous behavior that I have seen. What I have seen would almost suggest that their defensive behavior is a sort of territoriality. Many of the bite reports I have read conclude with the perpetrator calmly walking back into it's enclosure. I am not going to get a P. Murinus for any sort of ego trip or thrill I genuinely love this particular species. One of my favorite things about them is seeing the sheer amount of webbing they produce. Rest easy, I do not fall into the "look at me" camp. I am only trying to understand as much as possible the threat behavior of this particular species.
 

Poec54

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Mar 26, 2013
Messages
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OR showing that some individuals can vary from the species general temperament, even though there is a chance that they can get bit.
And what does that prove? Not like it's remotely doing anything scientific, or for the hobby. In fact, a few idiots handling OBT's only encourages others to try it, hence this thread. That's not in the best interests of the hobby. It's all about cheap thrills and showing off.
 

Brandon F

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Messages
0
I can't conceive of one handling this species without ending up with several holes in their hand in the process. Let me just ask you something, have you researched how to properly transfer and manipulate fast moving species like this? I mean researching techniques such as the "bag method" and what tools to have at your disposal (paint brush, tongs, catch cup) ?
No I have not, and that is why I have not even begun trying to source a specimen. I do have tongs, and catch cups. My cavalier days with Latrodectus are beyond over. The last specimen that I caught involved tongs, and a catch cup, and she was admired through the clear walls of a secure enclosure. I am merely curious are these people receiving bites after the camera is off, or are they getting lucky and next time might not go as well? I know that the general attitude towards such antics is disapproval, and for good reason. That aside, knowing the reputation of the species seeing this did pique my curiosity, and raise more than a few questions. I know that tarantulas have "moods", mine only had one and it was never good, just wanted some input on this from some more experienced keepers.
 

BobGrill

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
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Jan 25, 2011
Messages
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I wish I could give you a clear answer. I'm not sure what goes through people's heads when they do stuff like that.
 

Brandon F

Arachnopeon
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Sep 28, 2014
Messages
0
I wouldn't get one yet. Get a Psalmopoeus species, then a Poecilotheria species (regalis, metallica, and hanumavilasumica are, in my opinion, the best starters) or a Ceratogyrus species, then once you feel comfortable with the tarantulas mentioned, get an OBT. You should start with a sling (spiderling) or each species so you can adjust your feelings for true speed on them.
Interesting, I have seen many people suggesting that Poecilotheria are an "advanced" species, also I was reading something recently that suggest that there is a state of flux in the protection status of the genus that could potentially (let's hope not) result in a ban on trade of all Poecilotheria.
 

Poec54

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My cavalier days with Latrodectus are beyond over...I know that the general attitude towards such antics (with OBT's) is disapproval
So, you get a rush with venomous animals. That's not what we're here for. If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!' The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it. Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!). Maybe it gets loose. Maybe someone else in the house gets bit. In your mind, handling is worth it?
 

Brandon F

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So, you get a rush with venomous animals. That's not what we're here for. If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!' The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it. Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!). Maybe it gets loose. Maybe someone else in the house gets bit. In your mind, handling is worth it?
My comment about being cavalier was referring to the time that I kept a Latrodectus as a child. :) It is not that I get a rush from venomous animals, and I reiterate, I personally have no intention of handling any of them. If you will go back and re-read my posts you will see that I have stated that from the beginning ;).) I like to observe them. I know that this is a subject that you are passionate about, and I am inclined to agree that the overwhelming majority of people have selfish motivations for handling them. I will eventually commit to the care of a P. murinus. My intention is not to offend or incite you. One of the unfortunate side effects of electronic communication is ambiguity. I accept any failure to properly word my inquiry, as I may have created a communication barrier. I was only trying to gain some assistance in trying to interpret what I saw, when it was clearly in contradiction to the entire body of knowledge, which is scant I might add, I have read about the behavior of this species. I was only curious if any others have observed this first hand, and what they might be able to tell me about it. I am truly sorry if I have offended you, or come off as some sort of thrill seeking imbecile as that is quite the opposite. And to answer your question, no I don't feel that it is worth it. I have children, and I have read a good deal of bite reports stating that it would be quite possibly catastrophic if a child were bitten.
 
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cold blood

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I could spend all weekend looking at dumb things people record and put on you tube...there's certainly no shortage of irresponsible people on earth...lol. I wouldn't use you-tube as any kind of a gauge for the most part.;)

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. You say you really like the webbing and such...may I recommend looking at a GBB. I know the hairs aren't something you like, but if you're not handling, it shouldn't be a concern unless you're sticking your head in the enclosure. There's methods for re-housing, like the bag method, where you wouldn't be in the way of those hairs. They are beautiful, excellent eaters, quick and one of the best terrestrial webbers around.

If you really want an OW, look at C. darlingi and marshalli. Similar to that OBT in many ways, but with a typically more manageable attitude. Plus they are quite unique as they sport a nice "horn" on their carapace.
 

dredrickt

Arachnoknight
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Jan 27, 2014
Messages
170
I'm pretty suspicious about the timing or conditions a lot of these T's are under when being filmed in handling situations. Whether they are coming off of a molt or coming out of the fridge to slow their metabolism down.

Manipulated or not, other than self satisfaction, nothing is gained from handling a T in general. Personally, I haven't ever handled any of mine, and I won't ever handle any of them. I dont' want to pretend I can "domesticate" them or make them friendly, because that's a load of garbage. My only agenda is to observe and appreciate.
 

jigalojey

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Dec 23, 2012
Messages
206
I'm pretty suspicious about the timing or conditions a lot of these T's are under when being filmed in handling situations. Whether they are coming off of a molt or coming out of the fridge to slow their metabolism down
I can assure you there is many tricks to manipulate even the most defensive old worlds onto your hand that doesn't require any slowing of the metabolism, one of them is taking them out of the enclosure and then interacting with them.
 

BobGrill

Arachnoprince
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So, you get a rush with venomous animals. That's not what we're here for. If you truly 'have a love for these majestic animals' then you'll treat them with respect and won't handle them. I've yet to see any motivation for handling tarantulas that wasn't 'Me, me, me!' The thrill of having a spider walk on you, maybe dash up your arm before you can react, maybe on your back where you can't reach it. Maybe you get bit (and you're afraid of hospitals!). Maybe it gets loose. Maybe someone else in the house gets bit. In your mind, handling is worth it?
I don't think that's what he meant at all. We don't really know enough about the situation to be making those kinds of assumptions just yet.
 

Brandon F

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I like the species because by all accounts they are hardy and require very little maintenance. They are beautiful spiders, and I like their attitudes. This particular species is a survivor, and I like that about them. I am just trying to gain a picture of their behavior from every possible angle.

I have kept Latrodectus geometricus recently, and I did so with very little concern; they are slow, they live in a web, and as long as I don't touch them I don't really have anything to worry about. Of course accidents happen, and there is always that one time when something goes wrong. I just read an extremely long thread about the escape of a P. murinus that wound up being euthanized because it could not be re-captured, this is not something that I really considered happening, but it is just bad all around and could result in some very bad outcomes.

I also realize that there is a huge disparity between Latrodectus, and P. murinus. Both have medically significant venom, Latrodectus could potentially kill a person. The P. murinus might not have that potential, though from everything I have read the venom is by no means something anyone with any sense would want to experience.

However, Latrodectus are SLOW, and will not come out of their webs when you are doing maintenance or feeding. On the other hand, I have read reports of the P. murinus coming out of it's enclosure for the sole purpose of biting the intruder. This also suggests that the species is territorial, and creates an entirely different scenario. It suggests that my likelihood of being bitten at some point just doing habitat maintenance is fairly high, which makes me reluctant. A bite is always possible regardless of species, though this possibility does appear to be significantly higher with some.

I had already considered an acrylic enclosure that can be locked because you never know if a child will get too curious regardless of what you tell them. I am so curious about the handling not because I personally want to handle a P. murinus, or even think it a good idea. I was intrigued because it would suggest the possibility that they are not all unholy terrors that will make me nervous every time I have to feed it or perform maintenance.

The question then becomes, is this spider a terrifying adventure waiting to happen at every turn? Or is there a possibility that this spider could live happily in its enclosure for many years without incident? I'm not sure that anyone can answer that definitively, nor was that my expectation when starting this thread. I was merely attempting to gain information on an aspect of their nature that I have heard little about so I could make an informed decision.

I have been considering this for over two months, it's not something that I want to rush. I had no expectation of receiving a response like, "Yeah they're great once you get them out of their enclosure!" (Though I have read people saying just that...) Then turning around and ordering one that instant and trying to handle it after its arrival. I believe that after reading the responses here that the behavior I have visually observed is perhaps atypical, and possibly manipulated. Chilling them down to preform a sort of sleight of hand is something that I had never even considered. This invalidates any visual observations made; unless observed in person first hand.

After reading the escape thread, and I will admit that the possibility of escape never crossed my mind as I have never had that happen with any of the true spiders I have kept over the last two decades or so. I think that this species is one that I should not try, at least not for the foreseeable future. I have a five year old, and an escape has too much risk associated with it.

But that is the point right? To be responsible, ask the questions, and follow them to their logical conclusion. That conclusion being to keep one of the many other specimens listed in the replies for the time being.

BobGrill, thanks for pointing out the bag method, I was not familiar with this.
 

Fyrwulf

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Sep 17, 2014
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Honestly, if you have a small child you should NOT get a Pokie, either. Read this. This guy got one fang from a P. metallica. Presumably he's a healthy individual. Two fangs and I'm convinced he's spending a night or two in the ICU on a respirator. I'm also convinced that particular bite delivered to a child would have resulted in a fatality if it were not taken seriously.

Look into Tappies or something until your kid is old enough to understand the consequences of not leaving something like an OBT or Pokie alone.
 
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Poec54

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I don't think that's what he meant at all. We don't really know enough about the situation to be making those kinds of assumptions just yet.

We have plenty to go on. Why would anyone handle an OBT except for a cheap thrill?

---------- Post added 10-05-2014 at 07:18 AM ----------

Interesting, I have seen many people suggesting that Poecilotheria are an "advanced" species, also I was reading something recently that suggest that there is a state of flux in the protection status of the genus that could potentially (let's hope not) result in a ban on trade of all Poecilotheria.

What's more likely to get Poecilotheria banned, and all tarantulas, is high profile bites, especially a child in the house being bitten by one that escaped during a handling stunt.
 
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