Depressed tarantulas in captivity

Sharno · Oct 6, 2014

I'm guilty of using a slightly misleading subject line. We all know that tarantulas don't have emotions.

Is there any awareness in them that they are in captivity? Or sense of being confined? In the case of a mature male with a desire to roam, is there frustration (not the right word, but you know what I mean)?

I ask because I have a jumping spider that I have been fattening up, and he/she is gorgeous - they are very, very active and roaming the entire enclosure. I imagine it's just looking for prey, but I wonder if there's any instinctive feeling of confinement.

Just curious what people understand as far as a tarantula's awareness of being captive.

Arachnomaniac19 · Oct 6, 2014

Well they probably "feel" a sense of "awkwardness" in captivity since they don't have their normal, seasonal temperatures and humidity but other than that I'd guess not.

To my knowledge tarantulas can feel emotions just not on the same level as mammals. For example, when you ship a tarantula it probably gets stressed while being shipped.

xirxes · Oct 6, 2014

I don't think we are well enough equipped to know what tarantulas experience other than potentially types of visual stimulus. It is a possibility that they may have rudimentary emotional responses. (Unrelatedly: I believe that through over 2 decades of close observation that fish clearly display emotion.)

As far as captive vs wild behavior, truth is that we don't have a lot of data on most species' daily activity. They are generally very reclusive.

It seems though that most species are likely not too far off base, due to the fact that hunting, staying well nourished, maximal growth, and breeding successfully has been attained with well provided for tarantulas of almost every species we have access to. These are regarded as rough metrics for fulfillment.

gobey · Oct 6, 2014

I try to sleep at night and I hear my MM Euathlus parvulus drumming at his enclosure walls.... He didn't do this until he came back from a breeding loan. Now he won't stop moving. I'm letting it be for now. But I may have to get a larger enclosure for him. His is just large enough to accomadate him as he's maybe only 2.5" max. But it has cork and a hide and he wandersbtge perimeter constantly a tap tap tappin. A bigger home may not stop the behavior but may make his constant circling of his snug custom tub for a mate a bit less "frustrating"?

Poec54 · Oct 6, 2014

Sharno said:
We all know that tarantulas don't have emotions.

And you know this how? They certainly must feel something when basic drives are satisfied, whether food, water, security, evading a predator, etc. And stressed & anxious when they're deprived of those. They can't feel pain, and a sense of relief when it stops? Set your ego aside; a lot of human emotions are driven by satisfying the same basic urges every animal has.

HungryGhost · Oct 6, 2014

None of my tarantulas show the slightest bit of remorse after killing crickets.

DVMT · Oct 6, 2014

HungryGhost said:
None of my tarantulas show the slightest bit of remorse after killing crickets.

I dont feel remorse after eating a steak...your point?

gobey · Oct 6, 2014

HungryGhost said:
None of my tarantulas show the slightest bit of remorse after killing crickets.

Some of mine show hesitation though.

DVMT · Oct 6, 2014

Poec54 said:
And you know this how? They certainly must feel something when basic drives are satisfied, whether food, water, security, evading a predator, etc. And stressed & anxious when they're deprived of those. They can't feel pain, and a sense of relief when it stops? Set your ego aside; a lot of human emotions are driven by satisfying the same basic urges every animal has.

+1 I think relief is the greatest feeling a living thing can feel....and if they feel that...then they must feel more than we can understand.

elliotulysses · Oct 6, 2014

Poec54 said:
And you know this how? They certainly must feel something when basic drives are satisfied, whether food, water, security, evading a predator, etc. And stressed & anxious when they're deprived of those. They can't feel pain, and a sense of relief when it stops? Set your ego aside; a lot of human emotions are driven by satisfying the same basic urges every animal has.

Your posts are always so insightful. I feel you're a mentor to many on here.
I also agree everything has emotions. It's just the fact we don't have technology to read anything other than "instinct"
Biologists don't even have a way to measure reptile intelligence let alone start to comprehend emotional expression. I'd imagine it's even more difficult for arachnids...we have too many walls to understand.
However, these topics really interest me as I'm going to school for neuropsych.

DVMT · Oct 6, 2014

But to answer the OP original question.... Yes....I believe on an instinctual level, they might feel confined. This feeling could be diminished due to captive breeding, but may not ever go away. Think about it. Every creature is designed to roam freely and explore its environment.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 08:25 PM ----------

elliotulysses said:
Your posts are always so insightful. I feel you're a mentor to many on here.
I also agree everything has emotions. It's just the fact we don't have technology to read anything other than "instinct"
Biologists don't even have a way to measure reptile intelligence let alone start to comprehend emotional expression. I'd imagine it's even more difficult for arachnids...we have too many walls to understand.
However, these topics really interest me as I'm going to school for neuropsych.

Missed this post. Bravo. The mind amongst all creatures may be the most difficult thing we conquer the complete understanding. We may travel through time before we break down this wall.

telepatella · Oct 6, 2014

My tarantula read Being and Nothingness by Sartre and has been in gloomy ever since...

elliotulysses · Oct 6, 2014

DamonVikki said:
But to answer the OP original question.... Yes....I believe on an instinctual level, they might feel confined. This feeling could be diminished due to captive breeding, but may not ever go away. Think about it. Every creature is designed to roam freely and explore its environment.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 08:25 PM ----------

Missed this post. Bravo. The mind amongst all creatures may be the most difficult thing we conquer the complete understanding. We may travel through time before we break down this wall.

Completely agree. Though they are making human progress with people with severe autism, getting them to communicate with programs. I've heard some technology to read dog thoughts, though very basic and not very good... If mammals and humans have some possibility of this perhaps it won't be long to get reptilian or arachnid cumbersome technology too. Give it a few centuries.
Our ghosts can hover around to wait

scorpionchaos · Oct 6, 2014

Actually a recent study is sweeping the reptile world were a trained bearded dragon opened a locked door infront of other bearded dragons to get a treat for himself. The bearded dragons that watched him were able to figure out how to open the door. The group that didn't see the bearded dragon did not open the door.

pretty cool stuff actually

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Liz...gon-Lizards-Are-Smarter-That-You-Might-Think/

gobey · Oct 6, 2014

scorpionchaos said:
Actually a recent study is sweeping the reptile world were a trained bearded dragon opened a locked door infront of other bearded dragons to get a treat for himself. The bearded dragons that watched him were able to figure out how to open the door. The group that didn't see the bearded dragon did not open the door.

pretty cool stuff actually

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Liz...gon-Lizards-Are-Smarter-That-You-Might-Think/

How much of that problem solving equates to emotion as well? Does intelligence = emotions?

freedumbdclxvi · Oct 6, 2014

Poec54 said:
And you know this how? They certainly must feel something when basic drives are satisfied, whether food, water, security, evading a predator, etc. And stressed & anxious when they're deprived of those. They can't feel pain, and a sense of relief when it stops? Set your ego aside; a lot of human emotions are driven by satisfying the same basic urges every animal has.

They lack a limbic system, which pretty much nullifies any emotions for them. Outside of that, you're delving into purely philosophical ideas with regards to emotions vs instinct/urges.

elliotulysses · Oct 6, 2014

scorpionchaos said:
Actually a recent study is sweeping the reptile world were a trained bearded dragon opened a locked door infront of other bearded dragons to get a treat for himself. The bearded dragons that watched him were able to figure out how to open the door. The group that didn't see the bearded dragon did not open the door.

pretty cool stuff actually

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Liz...gon-Lizards-Are-Smarter-That-You-Might-Think/

That's too cool. I'd love to see more research

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 10:22 PM ----------

gobey said:
How much of that problem solving equates to emotion as well? Does intelligence = emotions?

I think the fact of the manner is there are too many variables. We barely have a concept between human intelligence and regards to emotional capacity.

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 10:26 PM ----------

freedumbdclxvi said:
They lack a limbic system, which pretty much nullifies any emotions for them. Outside of that, you're delving into purely philosophical ideas with regards to emotions vs instinct/urges.

But that's a human brain. I don't think there are any arachnid neuroscientists out there. Parts of brains function differently between people(thus the lack of specific explanation for mental illness) I can imagine a barely delved into science can even vaguely be understood. Think of Freud only a bit over a century ago!
This conversation is so stimulating!

freedumbdclxvi · Oct 6, 2014

You're projecting human emotions upon arachnid physiology that *doesn't* have the parts or processes that give forth our emotional response.

elliotulysses · Oct 6, 2014

freedumbdclxvi said:
You're projecting human emotions upon arachnid physiology that *doesn't* have the parts or processes that give forth our emotional response.

Exactly. We don't know much about the human brain or emotions, let alone something as foreign as an arachnid.

Poec54 · Oct 6, 2014

HungryGhost said:
None of my tarantulas show the slightest bit of remorse after killing crickets.

And do you? And what about the cows that are slaughtered in order to feed you? Remorse?

Depressed tarantulas in captivity

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