Dog training suggestions sought

The Snark

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We have had our mini akita type dog thing for about a year now. When we first got him all the fur was rubbed off around his neck from a collar. He escaped apparently and adopted us. He cringed at just about anything. Obviously abused, he lived in terror of any oppression. Hie could not even eat when people were near. ANY, and I mean ANY attempt to instruct him or correct his actions made him cringe and cower.
And now, a year on, we have gained his trust a little. He will eat in front of us. He is very friendly. But he is still as skittish as ever. Any action that he perceives an attempt to control him and he's back in cover mode. Putting a collar on him, or a harness, is out of the question.

And he has become a total a-hole. No keeping him fenced, he digs under or swims the river. He loves to chase people, other dogs, bikes, anything that moves slowly near the property. He's smart. We yell at him he gauges if we are near enough to potentially beat him If so he cringes. If not, he ignores us.

I won't force obedience training on him. I tried and lost his trust for 6 months. All I got was him lying at my feet in the submissive posture. All I can do is be friendly. He takes this as a green light to be even more of an a-hole. Even the smallest little bits of training, like sit, don't jump up on us, is tested and ignored. Enforced sit and he lies down and submits. Jump up on us, I can yell no in his face loud enough to scare our distant neighbors but he knows it's all sound and I can't enforce without his cringing.

The problem was during his formative life he was anti trained. Anti training in fact. He can't be rewarded. A pet for doing something right makes him cringe. A treat for the correct action has to be put on the ground and take a step back. He will take it, but cautiously, keeping an eye on us as he does. Almost everything we do is taken as a potential harassment. Can't get him into a vehicle. Can't pick him up. Can't give him a hug. Completely non receptive to affection except when he initiates it. An attempt to take him to the vet for a check up and neutering caused complete panic and made him regress months of winning his trust.

Help!
 
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Blue Jaye

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I might have a way for you to re-work his trust issues . Fear sounds like your biggist issue with your dog due to his past life.
The best way to correct this is to always be calm and quiet when working with him and firm at the same time meaning don't
Give in to his behavior . The calmer you are with him the calmer he will be with everything you do with him . Speaking quietly will make him attempt to listen and pay attention to what you are doing and saying. Yelling or being loud will make him
nervous and then he can't hear you he will just want to get away. Try not to get frustrated there has been a lot of damage done in his past life and it takes time and patience to work with don't expect immediate results look for the little steps he makes and and verbally give praise and be consistent with everything you do. As for the collar issue and touching try nothing but verbal praise for a couple weeks and when he does come near you for pets pet everything but his head at first again remember to
be quiet and very gentle this will gain lots of trust . Then try putting on the collar like it's no big deal give him lots of calm reassurance . Once the collar is on leash him and keep him with you as much as possible if he starts pulling or freaking out try your best to walk forward using your body motion to guide him don't pull on him with your arms just keep your body moving . Once he has gained some trust and confidence you can start working on sit , down ,come etc. consistency is your best friend when doing any kind of training and pain never has to be involved . It's a bit hard to tell you everything you need to know in a thred but I will do my best. You can also Pm me . I have worked a lot of rescue so I might have a few good tricks up my sleeve that might help. Really hope this helps .
 

The Snark

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Blue Jaye, thanks very much. It sounds like you have the knowledge. I'd like to take it one step further and see what you can sound out since it is much worse than you realize.

I'll have to give examples. I put a collar on him as you suggested. He lay down and waited for his beating. He didn't move for about 18 hours. Didn't go potty, didn't touch his food or tidbits. Taking him off the leash, a run, he went down on his belly when I got near him for a week. 6 months of gaining his trust shot in the ass.

He is delighted to see me come home, wagging his tail frantically. But stoop over to pet him, he freezes. He enjoys the pets, loves his ears scratched, and butt, but remains frozen immobile until I straighten up. It has taken a year to get that far. Squatting near him he won't approach. Apparently some form of ambush preluding torture.

Obedience wise, he cheats. As example, any cajoling or asking him or directing him in any tone of voice initially gets a wary look from him. If he sees no beating \is coming he completely ignores you. This morning as example. Getting a vehicle out the driveway and he comes out with it. Try and get him back in the yard by gentle requests and he checked for a beating. Since that wasn't forthcoming all our pleading and trying to shoo him back in the yard was ignored, he romped around the vehicle then ran off down the street to see what the neighbor was doing.

There just is no middle of the road. I can't even sit on the step of the porch and be friendly. He goes and hides until I stand up. When we had to give him a flea and tick bath, acting ridiculously gentle and kind, he stood there frozen. But he's out swimming in the canals and river almost every day.

It's driving me nuts that we can't even be affectionate. Can't even get him to take a treat from our hands. I've got 4 cats now that have come to realize I'm so gentle they are willing to laze on their backs in my arms. The same gentle falls on deaf ears with the dog.
 
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xkris

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the best time to establish a routine is in the beginning.
you caved in.
so he does his little avoidance thing, he lays down, submits, cringes and you back away.
next time dont.
put a collar on him, attach it to a leash. be calm about it, nice and sweet but firm.
what ever he does, you practice walking. without pulling. ignore any freaking out. just move forward! there will never be any trust if he knows he can get away with it.

next put a collar&leash, practice sit.
when he lays down, pick him up.
practice sit...
when he does...what ever. pick him up.
practice sit...
practice sit...
practice sit...
over and over.
what ever he does you just ignore it, put him back into position and practice sit...
and practice sit.

next practice down.
and practice down...
and do it some more:)


be nice and cheerful when you praise him, jet firm.
when he does wrong, let him know. say NO. calm&firm. if needed correct him.
ignore flinching. stay calm.
every day practice obedience, its mandatory with fearful dogs to develop common language and routine.
this develops trust. not you giving in to him.
and dont let the dog train you, thats why he becoming is a a-hole.
inforce your rules. you train him, not other way around.
 

The Snark

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So we have put gaining and keeping his trust the top priority and let all else go to hell in a bucket?
 

xkris

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mhhh "all else go to hell in a bucket? "
what do you mean by that. not trying to be a smartass, just want to know?

you say you dont want to "force" obedience training on him.
i ask you how on earth will you accomplish anything with him without it.
if you look at it that way, every dog on earth that ever lived with humans had some form of obedience "forced" on him. its unavoidable. and necessary.

otherwise you'll have a half-wild animal who runs rampart, comes to you when it wants something and at other times when its not convenient to him...he just simply blows you off. you'll have exactly what you have now. are you happy with that? if yes, please continue.
 
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The Snark

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mhhh "all else go to hell in a bucket? "
what do you mean by that. not trying to be a smartass, just want to know?

you say you dont want to "force" obedience training on him.
i ask you how on earth will you accomplish anything with him without it.
if you look at it that way, every dog on earth that ever lived with humans had some form of obedience "forced" on him. its unavoidable. and necessary.

otherwise you'll have a half-wild animal who runs rampart, comes to you when it wants something and at other times when its not convenient to him...he just simply blows you off. you'll have exactly what you have now. are you happy with that? if yes, please continue.
Hell in a bucket. We let him take advantage of the situation. I was happy just for him to not cringe when I got near him.

I all honesty, I'm a rotten animal keeper. I've had 2 dogs who called all their own shots. Yes, they were half wild running rampant but fortunately lived where that was completely acceptable. Sort of. I had to reimburse the price of 2 valuable dogs my akita killed, and close to a hundred chickens. But I don't care how good trainer you are, you aren't going to tell an akita to not eat chickens and dogs, especially when his job was keeping stray dogs and coyotes away from the property. Ultimately it cost one of them her life when she went after a pack of coyotes. But that was what she wanted. The price she paid for her freedom.

I've worked pre broken horses and used the training they have been given but my own horse wasn't broken. He just knew his job and when we had to work. Come play time ... sitting on his back while he went for a romp, anywhere from an hour to all night affairs. His call.

So I need training as much as our dog does. Even more. I'm more set in my in situ ways than he is willful. I'm taking notes of all suggestions and trying to work things out in my mind where I won't feel like a tyrant. I'f I lived in California I'd take him out into the wilds around Owens Valley and turn him loose with my best wishes. He's quite capable of feeding himself though he's going to have to change to rabbits from frogs. He goes a-hole out there he's guaranteed to take a bullet from one of the locals.
 
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xkris

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see what the issue is here.
you want to be good to him give him nice things and not a evil-controlling-tyrant who denies him basic freedom and other "human" rights?
dogs are not like people and don't do well with total/unconditional freedom...they get them self hurt and do all sort of stupid things that get them into trouble.

think of it this way. how much better would his life be if he was trained and well behaved?
you could...give him much more freedom...you could:

-take him with you (your family) on a car ride,
-drive somewhere nice,
-have him meet other people&dogs,
-not by mortified in the process:),
-have coffee somewhere and if hes good let him lick some cream or something when your finished,
-let him explore some new place,
-have him come back home in a orderly fashion and be tired and happy,
-know he'll be able to do it again because his been good and not a embarrassment?

all this is possible only if you make the switch in your way of thinking.
dogs are not people.
you can correct him nice&quick and painless and still all be good in his eyes.


dont specifically work on gaining and keeping trust, hes a dog....trust comes with time.
work on obedience.
every day take 15min in morning and 15min in the evening. this will allow you to develop a understanding of what you want and what is expected of him.
also every day, give him a task, like a small job for him. (i see no problem with keeping strays and coyotes away, that's good job, eating dogs is bad:))
develop some rules. like no running wild without supervision. walk your dog...on a leash. that allows you to spend quality time together.


first step is to mentally prepare your self, pet a collar on him, put leash practice walking, without pulling.
and...
practice walking,
practice walking,
practice walking,
practice walking,
like a broken record, do it until it sticks.
ignore antics&drama&screaming bloody murder...put him back into place.
practice walking.

next practice sit,
over and over again, until he knows it.

next practice down,
next stay,
next heel,
next come when called,
this is basic obedience, its a must.
then if you want you can do frivolous tricks. my dogs love training. but they didnt come out of the factory that way. we train every day.

all this looks meaningless in the beginning, when he has no idea what you want.
but its not. it will develop a common language and a understanding.
also some invisible lines in your home that are important.

later when you incorporate some rules into this it can look very impressive.

like:

-sit for feeding until given ok,
-sit for treats,
-sit to meet new people&dogs,
-sit for asking me what you want,
-no bolting out of crate until i say ok, even if the door is wide open,
-no bolting out of front door until given permission, even if the door is open,
-no bolting out of car, even if the door is open,
-your not allowed on bed if i dont call you up,
-your not allowed to jump on people,
-your not allowed to pester me while i eat,
-go to your place and relax there...
-chew only on your stuff
...

you can develop rules that suit your situation.
 

LythSalicaria

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Are you able to enlist the help of a Behaviorist? It sounds like one would be extremely beneficial to you in this case. Akitas can be a challenge for inexperienced dog owners even when they haven't been abused, so I can only imagine what you've gone through with this poor little soul.

The bonus of working with a Behaviorist is, they spend more time training you than they do training the dog. They can help you understand your animal better and set up a specialized training program to help gain the dog's trust while also teaching him better manners. Getting advice here is a good start, but one-on-one time with a professional can make a world of difference. Believe me, you won't be disappointed. All the behaviorists I've met have cared very deeply for the animals they work with, and it shows in their methods.
 

Blue Jaye

Arachnobaron
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Hello there Snark , I think Xkris is giving you very good advise and is the same thing I was saying but written out better . So you have two people that agree on the same things . Dogs are bred to do tasks and without tasks they just run wild . It's very
hard to put your heart aside when something shows fear but you must with this dog if you want to get any where with him..
Instead of trying to pet him and get his trust and praise try staying more aloof make him want your attention . Only praise him when he completes a task you are asking of him . When you put the collar on make it no big deal get him up praise him for being up and continue again be consistent with everything you do. You want him to work for your trust as much as you work for
his. Giving him tasks he has to achieve creates a language and trust bond between you . Just being nice to him and giving him what he wants won't make him trust you . Try the advise you have been given for at least a week and see if you gain some
Progress.I know this can be frustrating and heart breaking , hang in there !!!
 

The Snark

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Progress!
I did some serious elf examination then put on the same mien I used as a cop. Friendly, casual, neutral, trying to elicit cooperation and keep things easy going.
I put the halter on the dog today and he cowered as usual while I was gentling him and trying to show there was nothing more to it than a new piece of clothing. Then mother nature intervened! A monsoon came stomping through with plenty of thunder and lightning. Dog is absolutely terrified of thunder. I went out after 10 minutes to take the halter off and he was on the porch shivering. So I sat there with him and hugged and just talked and petted through the entire storm. He forgot he was wearing the halter. Storm over he was back to his bouncy self while wearing it!
So we have a start. Next is a modified list from your suggestions, one step at a time. It's going to be very slow as I don't yet want to use the halter to restrain him. Let him get completely comfortable wearing it first.
 

xkris

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very happy for you dude. first step is always the hardest.
fearful dog is always going to react to new&unknown things by being terrified. there is nothing you can do about it. its nothing personal, just his personality. you just keep going, he needs your guidance.
once you get going and establish a routine, hes going to get used to it being... not a end of the world...but just you teaching him something new. its like a acclimatization.
it does get easier with time. dogs have a great aptitude for learning.

i like the whole cop persona, i think its very fitting for this situation.
you just remember, its nothing personal, don't feel bad, stick to your plan, move forward and be patient.
good luck!
 

The Snark

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Prome Sogress

Three weeks on. Put him in a halter. He was expecting a beating. Stayed around the house cringing instead of going out and carousing. 3 days later he regained his composure and was used to the halter. Have spent 2 1/2 weeks trying every trick I can think of. Treats, petting, playing in the yard with him, everything. Put a leash on the halter or even grab it and he lies down in submissive posture and refuses to move. Even a dead chicken placed under his nose, his penultimate treat, and went in the house leaving his leash on. 4 hours later he hadn't moved an inch, chicken untouched.
I realize it is going to take some time but nobody bothered to mention the time is going to be measured in eons and ice ages.
 

ratluvr76

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Man my heart is breaking for this poor dog! That someone could be cruel enough to damage his spirit, the dog must have been very badly abused! You are a hero for taking the time to try to help him heal.
 

The Snark

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Man my heart is breaking for this poor dog! That someone could be cruel enough to damage his spirit, the dog must have been very badly abused! You are a hero for taking the time to try to help him heal.
The highest quality a being can possess is compassion, yes? When we take care of animals as seen every day on AB, we are searching for and bringing out that quality in ourselves.

When he first appeared in our yard, full grown but still a puppy mentality wise, he was bald from behind his ears to his shoulders from a collar.

I could use some additional suggestions. He roams and is a bit of an a-hole with his carousing. We cannot get him to enter a vehicle. If we put him in a vehicle he freaks and wants out. We desperately want to do our part of responsible animal ownership and have him neutered but cannot fathom how we will get him to a vet without a major retrogression in our rapport with him. Suggestions????
 

Bigboy

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Boil up some liver and cut it into 1cm cubes. Sit down and watch the tv with a bowl of that and his kibble on your lap. When he looks at you, say "yes" in an excited voice and immediately give him a piece of liver. Doesn't matter if it takes you an hour or two hours, do that with the entire bowl every time you feed him his dinner.

Two reasons.

1. Your dog doesn't find you interesting. You need to make him realize you are full of good things and the keeper of treats. By looking at you ad paying attention to you he gets good things.

2. Your dog needs to learn how to know hen he is doing something right. By doing this you condition him to know that when you say yes he is doing the right thing that gets him a reward.


PM me when you have done this a few times and we'll continue. This is foundational obedience. I train in advanced obedience.
 

The Snark

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Boil up some liver and cut it into 1cm cubes. Sit down and watch the tv with a bowl of that and his kibble on your lap. When he looks at you, say "yes" in an excited voice and immediately give him a piece of liver. Doesn't matter if it takes you an hour or two hours, do that with the entire bowl every time you feed him his dinner.

Two reasons.

1. Your dog doesn't find you interesting. You need to make him realize you are full of good things and the keeper of treats. By looking at you ad paying attention to you he gets good things.

2. Your dog needs to learn how to know hen he is doing something right. By doing this you condition him to know that when you say yes he is doing the right thing that gets him a reward.


PM me when you have done this a few times and we'll continue. This is foundational obedience. I train in advanced obedience.
Just one minor problem. He can't eat in front of us. He has to take it into the yard in private. Apparently teasing with food was part of his formative years torture regimen. We've been unable to gain his trust in the slightest degree on this front. Feeding a whole bowl of tidbits would take all day. Suggestions?
 

Bigboy

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A hungry dog will always eat. Seems mean but believe me it isn't. He takes food away because he thinks it is going to be stolen off him. If he is very hungry he will accept food from you.

Do you have a crate? Leave a bowl of food on top of it and put the dog in it in a quiet corner of the house where you spend most of your time. Everytime you go past it give him a piece of food through the crate and walk away.

When he comes out have him leashed to you. Even if that means being leashed next to you while you use the computer in the house. In the crate, or on the leash. It will help you build trust between the two of you.

The crate is a safe spot for him. Not his time out spot but his get out of jail free spot. the feeding in the crate will also let him know that you don't take food, you give it and that being in the crate is a good thing.

The leash even in the house thing shows him that you are in charge of his everything. You decide where and when to go somewhere, he doesn't make those decisions.

Again, some people will consider this to be unfair but they aren't thinking about him as a dog if they do. Dogs think very differently from us, that's why so many folks have trouble training them.


Above all remember that dogs adapt to immediate changes in their life. They remember lessons from the past but readily reject them if circumstances demonstrate they are no longer applicable. No matter how abused your dog was, you can build its confidence over time.
 

The Snark

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Will adapt your suggestions and try. I've tried the cubes (of chicken, he hates liver), which so far has only managed to get us both extremely frustrated.

My guess is he was tempted to come to a person offering a treat then they would hit him. Offering him a treat while on a leash at my side he will drop it and not touch it. If permitted to move about he will take the treat, no matter how small, and move 10 to 15 feet away to swallow it. He will then remain that distance away from me for 15 minutes to a half hour. I spent about 6 hours yesterday and was able to get about 8 treats into him. I did most of that sitting down then when I stood up he ran to the far end of the yard and was unapproachable for about an hour. With treat=abuse in his mind I need to find an alternative.

I realize I'm almost sounding like a troll here, eliciting comments so I can mess with people. It's not that. Not not. Over a year of loving kindness I still can't reach my arm out to give him a gentle pet without him cringing. He will come to me for it, but I can't approach him. And if I move too fast to pet him he drops to the ground and assumes the submissive posture. ARRRRRRG!!!!

I so desperately want to take him in my arms and cuddle him. Comfort him. ANYTHING! Nope. It's all preludes to more torture.
 
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Bigboy

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your body language can relay a lot of that frustration to him. Try to only do this with him side on, never facing him. Look away from him when offering food. You got him to eat some from you though THATS PROGRESS. Always remember the little victories. It seems like you will have to do things in baby steps but try not to let him take his food away and eat it. That reinforces the behavior. The more he eats near you without incident the more it will be conditioned in him for that to be a normal safe and stress free activity.

I reckon you should hold back on entire meals by hand and instead try getting him to take one piece of food, maybe two. Once he has done that give him the bowl and ignore him but remember, don't let him try to hide to eat it. He has to learn that it is okay to eat near you.

Each time he eats a piece you have offered he is rewarded with the rest of the meal. He learns you don't take food, you give it. A crate that partially obstructs you from view might even give him the confidence to eat in the same room as you. You could try feeding the whole meal in there.

I feel for you, dogs can be frustrating as all hell but in a few months you can have a brand new dog (from a behavior standpoint). You just have to be more stubborn than he is.

The best thing you can do for a dog like that is demonstrate leadership. A dog without a pack leader (as lame as that sounds its the best terminology for it) is a nervous wreck because it has to take on all the responsibility in its life. A dog with a leader only has to follow, much less stressful. The things I've suggested will foster that relationship.

Just remember, be more stubborn than the dog. If you start getting mad, training is over. When the dog does the right thing, training is over, end on a good note every time. It's better to have a 5 minute training session that ends well than a 15minute one that ended poorly. Ending on a good note builds that confidence in the dog by showing it that it can do what is asked of it and makes them more eager for the next training session.
 
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