Mature male acanthoscurria... what?

Bugmom

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Suppose to be a genic, but my female genic wants nothing to do with him, and likewise he wants nothing to do with her. He's built several sperm webs, but put him with her and nothing but him fleeing while she chases him out. Any possibility he's a brocklehursti?
acanth2.jpg

acanth.jpg
 

Poec54

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Looks like brocklehursti, males have black tibia without white stripes.
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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That's exactly what happen to me back in 2009 my geniculata female wanted nothing to do with the brocklehursti male. Please pm me if you want to breed your male brocklehursti with my female brocklehursti.



Jose

---------- Post added 10-31-2014 at 02:53 PM ----------

Yes it is a brocklehursti!


Jose
 
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Bugmom

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That could explain the lack of interest on his part. There's online pics of males of both of them. Check them out.
That's what I was thinking too, especially after looking at pics. I just wanted to get some opinions from the experts here.

Jose, you have a PM.
 

Akai

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lol I was about to recommend Jose for IDing but he chimed in. Thats nice that he is only one state away for a breeding loan. Good luck! ;)
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

Arachnoprince
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Poec54, awesome job IDing her spider.


Jose

---------- Post added 10-31-2014 at 04:41 PM ----------

lol I was about to recommend Jose for IDing but he chimed in. Thats nice that he is only one state away for a breeding loan. Good luck! ;)
Thanks for the vote of confidence.


Jose
 

Bugmom

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lol I was about to recommend Jose for IDing but he chimed in. Thats nice that he is only one state away for a breeding loan. Good luck! ;)
Right! This'll be a short trip for him.
 

Yentlequible

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Sending him to Jose? He has a massive female that is very beautiful. I'd love to see some babies come from her.
 

Philth

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Spiders not mating isn't a good way to ID a species if you ask me. I can't tell you how many times I've had spiders not want to mate, and they were definitely the same species, sometimes even brother and sisters from the same sac. I can't help to think A. geniculata hasn't been mixed with A. brocklehursti over the years. I just don't believe that they wont mate, because they are that different. According to current taxonomic revisions, they are the same species anyways, just considered a variation. I'm not saying its OK to mix them, but I'm willing to bet these 2 species have been mixed just as much as P. subfusca HL/LL thing.

Later, Tom
 

Poec54

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Spiders not mating isn't a good way to ID a species if you ask me. I can't tell you how many times I've had spiders not want to mate, and they were definitely the same species, sometimes even brother and sisters from the same sac. I can't help to think A. geniculata hasn't been mixed with A. brocklehursti over the years. I just don't believe that they wont mate, because they are that different. According to current taxonomic revisions, they are the same species anyways, just considered a variation. I'm not saying its OK to mix them, but I'm willing to bet these 2 species have been mixed just as much as P. subfusca HL/LL thing.

Since brocklehursti isn't nearly as common in the hobby, the two probably haven't been mixed nearly as much as the two subfusca variants.

Most taxonomy in this hobby seems to be in transition. Someone could along and split brocklehursti and geniculata again.
 

Philth

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Since brocklehursti isn't nearly as common in the hobby, the two probably haven't been mixed nearly as much as the two subfusca variants.
Maybe P. subfusca is a extreme example, but if you search the archives here, "Is this A. geniculata or A. brocklehursti ?" type threads have been going on for years.

Most taxonomy in this hobby seems to be in transition. Someone could along and split brocklehursti and geniculata again.
Yup, that's quite possible. I still wont believe that those 2 spider wont mate.

Later, Tom
 

Bugmom

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Well I can't force a mating, and I'm not willing to try again when she's unreceptive and liable to just kill him. I'd much rather he get sent off to a female that's drumming and ready to go.

Plus if they are two different species, and I think they are, I'm not going to mate them together. Period.
 

Philth

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Plus if they are two different species, and I think they are, I'm not going to mate them together. Period.


That's my point, you think they are different, but your willing to mate it with Jose's spider that you think are the same. There's a lot of assumption going on there, and then hybrids are born. I'm not telling you not to mate them, they're your spiders. You may very well have brocklehursti there, I don't know. Who knows if any of them are pure anymore. But jumping to a conclusion that they are a different species because they wont mate adds to things getting mixed up. Just my opinion, you don't have to like it or believe it. No harm done.

Have you taken the time to get a good look at the emboli ? It may be hard to examine on a live animal, but when the male dies maybe he should be preserved to get a better look at. Take a look at this thread in the meanwhile.

Later, Tom
 
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Bugmom

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I can't see an extra keel on his emboli (I can very clearly make out the first keel). Not to say it's impossible they are there, just that I can't see one, and I got as close as I'm willing to stick my face to look ;)
 

KcFerry

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Spiders not mating isn't a good way to ID a species if you ask me. I can't tell you how many times I've had spiders not want to mate, and they were definitely the same species, sometimes even brother and sisters from the same sac. I can't help to think A. geniculata hasn't been mixed with A. brocklehursti over the years. I just don't believe that they wont mate, because they are that different. According to current taxonomic revisions, they are the same species anyways, just considered a variation. I'm not saying its OK to mix them, but I'm willing to bet these 2 species have been mixed just as much as P. subfusca HL/LL thing.

Later, Tom
Tom,

I agree that spiders not mating is no way to confirm the species. However, after some confusion I had while trying to pair my MM A. brock (which I purchased as an A. genic) with my female (which I also thought was an A. genic) I have spent a lot of time researching both species. As it turned out, they were both A. brocklehursti and I ended up with a sac! Both Poec54 and Jose helped me to properly identify my 2 A brocks and Jose walked me through the whole process and I ended up with over 1500 healthy A. brocklehursti. After searching every forum I could find, it seems this is a very commonly mistaken species! I find post after post of keepers both new and seasoned trying to pair the two different species without one successful pairing. This is due to the differences in both the spermathecae of the female and the extra ridge on the A. brocks palpal keels. I don't believe these two species can be hybridized! If they were willing to even try, I dont believe it would be successful since the "key doesn't fit the lock" (so to speak). With all the people who have unknowingly tried to pair them, I still can't find anything that looks remotely like a hybrid. In my case I was lucky enough to get them both wrong and with some help from Jose I was able to confirm both my T's to be A. brocks and this was further confirmed when my female produced a viable sac. I will continue to study these two species (since I have several of each) and keep looking for a reliable way for even the novice to tell them apart. As for now, I'll follow Jose and Rick's methods. I really hoped the thread below would get reviewed more often in these cases.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?259175-Really-big-A.-genic-MM&p=2282465#post2282465

I'm also curious as to why you would try to breed sac-mates as you mentioned???

PS..If Jose says he has a MF A. brocklehursti, I would trust him more tan anyone to properly ID his T's...especially Acanthoscurria Sp.
When I first posted that I accidentally crossbred my T's he was the first to say to destroy the sac!
The more involved I get in the hobby, the more I agree that there is no room for hybrids or inbred tarantulas contaminating an already difficult pile of spiders to sort out.

All the best,
Kevin
 
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Philth

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As it turned out, they were both A. brocklehursti and I ended up with a sac
Can you elaborate more on how you came to this conclusion ?

Both Poec54 and Jose helped me to properly identify my 2 A brocks
Maybe one of those guys can comment more on how to tell them apart, I'm willing to learn. How were they sure their stock was pure to begin with ? I know Poec54 mentioned something about the white line on the tibia, but when I Googled it, I found pics labeled both ways.

This is due to the differences in both the spermathecae of the female and the extra ridge on the A. brocks palpal keels. I don't believe these two species can be hybridized! If they were willing to even try, I dont believe it would be successful since the "key doesn't fit the lock" (so to speak).
The wrong key will fit in the lock with many other genra and species, why not this one? Poecilotheria from Sri Lanka can successfully breed with other speices from India. Hybrids are well know in many species.

With all the people who have unknowingly tried to pair them, I still can't find anything that looks remotely like a hybrid.
Most people cant tell these 2 species apart looking at the side by side with the subtle differences they have, how would you be able to easily spot a hybrid ? Hybrids can look exactly like the mother, exactly like the father, or a mix of both.

In my case I was lucky enough to get them both wrong and with some help from Jose I was able to confirm both my T's to be A. brocks and this was further confirmed when my female produced a viable sac.
A eggsac doesn't confirm it's not a hybrid, or one species over another.

I will continue to study these two species (since I have several of each) and keep looking for a reliable way for even the novice to tell them apart. As for now, I'll follow Jose and Rick's methods.
I have a great deal of respect for both of those guys, so I would like to hear more about these methods. I'm guilty of not reading through the link you provided, I'll take a look at it later.

I'm also curious as to why you would try to breed sac-mates as you mentioned???
That's a common practice among rare species in the hobby.

PS..If Jose says he has a MF A. brocklehursti, I would trust him more tan anyone to properly ID his T's...especially Acanthoscurria Sp.
That's, fine, for me I like to question everything (as you have seen in this thread lol) rather then just take someone's word. Again no offense to Jose.

The more involved I get in the hobby, the more I agree that there is no room for hybrids or inbred tarantulas contaminating an already difficult pile of spiders to sort out.
I agree, one of the reasons I don't like to see people assuming they have a different species because they wont mate. Unfortunately its to late for many species in the hobby.

My comments are not meant to be argumentative here, just a friendly discussion.
Later, Tom
 

Exoskeleton Invertebrates

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I do believe that the two species have been cross bred at one or more occasion thru the years. Even though Bugmom two spiders would not breed together but there is a possibility that they can and have in the past.
I have said this before on a different thread that back in 2009 my Acanthoscurria geniculata and brocklehursti would not breed. The difference with my geniculata at that time she would not kill the male brocklehursti she instead went to a corner and pretty much told the male don't touch me. Once I received the real geniculata and put the mature male geniculata with my female geniculata both wanted to breed right away, but of course the female wanted to kill him at same time. This was only a day to two days prior from putting the brocklehursti mature male with my female geniculata.
It just so happen during this time Kelly Swift gave me a 4"inch brocklehursti female for free. Since I was unsure what this other mature male identity was I went ahead and searched on the web for a photo of a mature male brocklehursti. I found one photo that http://www.tarantulacanada.ca/ had of a mature male brocklehursti. I compared the photo they had with my mature male brocklehursti and they looked exactly the same. So I decided to get in touch with Rick West to be sure of what I had was correct. He also agreed that I had a Acanthoscurria brocklehursti mature male. Once I felt good about my search on the web and speaking with Rick West of properly identifying the male decided to mate the brocklehursti mature male with the female brocklehursti and both bred with no problem. In fact the mature male brocklehursti was still in my hands hands going towards the females enclosure and the female brocklehursti was drumming madly for the male.
The mature male brocklehursti was sent to me as geniculata. This is why I first tried to breed the geniculata first. The only other time that I bred geniculata was back in 2003-04. During that time never took photo of the mature male so I only had a little bit of a memory of what the mature male looked like.


Jose

---------- Post added 11-03-2014 at 07:10 PM ----------



---------- Post added 11-03-2014 at 07:12 PM ----------

I can't see an extra keel on his emboli (I can very clearly make out the first keel). Not to say it's impossible they are there, just that I can't see one, and I got as close as I'm willing to stick my face to look ;)
Can you post a clear photo of your Acanthoscurria geniculata?


Jose

---------- Post added 11-03-2014 at 07:13 PM ----------

Can you elaborate more on how you came to this conclusion ?



Maybe one of those guys can comment more on how to tell them apart, I'm willing to learn. How were they sure their stock was pure to begin with ? I know Poec54 mentioned something about the white line on the tibia, but when I Googled it, I found pics labeled both ways.



The wrong key will fit in the lock with many other genra and species, why not this one? Poecilotheria from Sri Lanka can successfully breed with other speices from India. Hybrids are well know in many species.



Most people cant tell these 2 species apart looking at the side by side with the subtle differences they have, how would you be able to easily spot a hybrid ? Hybrids can look exactly like the mother, exactly like the father, or a mix of both.



A eggsac doesn't confirm it's not a hybrid, or one species over another.



I have a great deal of respect for both of those guys, so I would like to hear more about these methods. I'm guilty of not reading through the link you provided, I'll take a look at it later.



That's a common practice among rare species in the hobby.



That's, fine, for me I like to question everything (as you have seen in this thread lol) rather then just take someone's word. Again no offense to Jose.



I agree, one of the reasons I don't like to see people assuming they have a different species because they wont mate. Unfortunately its to late for many species in the hobby.

My comments are not meant to be argumentative here, just a friendly discussion.
Later, Tom
No offense taking. Look at your PM inbox.


Jose
 
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