Are these millipede deaths coincidence or a pattern?

kristinc

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I've had three Ivories since August and last month one of them died. They were active, eating; the first sign was that she was laying out straight on the substrate, not properly able to cover herself, and not moving her legs well. She also slimed me, which they never have before (at first I thought there was a chance she was molting on the surface, so I handled her with extreme, ginger care, but she secreted profusely).

I ordered some more Ivories, this time youngsters, and they arrived about two weeks ago. Again they were all active, eating, and yesterday I noticed one of them having the exact same issue -- not burrowing or actively crawling but laying on top of the substrate with reduced leg mobility. When I scooped her up with the soil under her, she secreted. I set her back where I found her and covered her with some moss but it seems too much to hope for at this point that she's molting.

They have good nutritious substrate, I don't see any infestations other than some fungus mites, their humidity is good without being soggy, they seem to enjoy the heater I stuck to the back end of the tank (so they can choose to be in 65-70ish substrate right next to the glass there, or cooler substrate further away); at least two of them have molted and they seem to be perfectly healthy and happy. There is a small pothos in the tank that's also flourishing.

I'm concerned that these identical deaths are related, but I can't think of anything that would be causing them.
 
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Cavedweller

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That's terrible! I'm sorry for your loss.

Perhaps the leaves/wood you added were tainted by pesticides or something?
 

Smokehound714

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Are you giving them true oak leaves, and rotting oak bark in addition to the substrate?

the leaves should be dead and dry. Millipedes are very sensitive when young.

be careful not to overdo it with the moisture, btw. sopping wet is bad.
 

kristinc

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Perhaps the leaves/wood you added were tainted by pesticides or something?
I would hate to think that! I didn't gather from anywhere I was even remotely unsure about and the pothos is one I had for months before I got the pedes. Seems to me like pesticide would have a higher and faster death toll?

As far as bacteria go, I used to just freeze everything for a month or so, but then got some foot rot, so I removed and baked the substrate and switched to baking everything I put in.

Can't find a pattern related to treat or treat sources either. I rotate through pears, bananas, squash and cat food; I don't use the peels of any produce I didn't grow myself.

---------- Post added 11-26-2014 at 09:11 PM ----------

I didn't have a source of oak leaves until recently, so most of the leaf matter is other hardwood: chestnut, maple, cherry. Wood is birch, cherry, chestnut. All the wood is crumbly and soft, and all the leaf matter is lovely and crumbly -- I mixed it with some coco fiber. The substrate is moist but not soggy. By youngsters I mean 1.5 -- 2 inches, so not tiny babies. The older pedes are near or at adult size.

I use a simple solution of dish soap in water to clean and dust, and don't spray it anywhere near the pede tank (I spray a cloth with it while standing away and then wipe the dresser).
 
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Cavedweller

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I've never tried non-oak leaves, but I would think that any hardwood would be alright.

My next guess is the heating pad, I think the book Millipedes in Captivity mentions that the moisture gradient created by a heating pad can be dangerous (not at home right now to check though). Honestly I would stick with a space heater.
 
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Cavedweller

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I'm out of guesses then. Maybe give us a photo of the enclosure? Definitely lose the heating pad though, those are never good for pedes.
 

Tongue Flicker

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Carbon monoxide poisoning maybe? I noticed this was kinda common this season as from what i read from visiting different animal boards today that there were cases of pet deaths resulting from their furnace fumes or something like that
 

Elytra and Antenna

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A death or two could be because they were on their way out when you got them (not all immatures make it to adulthood). If you continue to lose them then the mortalities were probably inflicted. Then I'd say replace the substrate and remove the heater.
 

Kees Hood

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I once ordered three ivories. Mine suffered the same fate, with almost the exact same symptoms. I also experienced this with some bumblebees I got for my little sister. There were no survivors. :=(
 

kristinc

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I've just double checked the CO detector up here on the bedroom level and it's functioning.

---------- Post added 11-27-2014 at 08:56 PM ----------

Is it possible that these sorts of symptoms could present in connection with humidity too low? Mind you I think my levels are good, but trying to cover every base here.
 

SDCPs

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I would suspect the nutritious substrate more than anything. Too much moisture and too much decomposing matter are real problems in my experience. Like wet rich black compost...er...I avoid like the plague.
 

Elytra and Antenna

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Like wet rich black compost...er...I avoid like the plague.
Rich black compost is my favorite to help produce healthy, strong millipeds, but then I don't avoid the plague. I avoid the fleas from the rats.
"Problems with Cause and Effect In the mysterious tale of the “Curse of the Grecian Urn,” ownership of the mysterious urn seems to cause many untimely deaths. Is the urn cursed or does it illustrate a common problem in assigning cause and effect? What does an athlete on a hot streak have in common with a citizen concerned that an abandoned factory is causing an epidemic of cancer?" -Amy Glenn
 

SDCPs

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Rich black compost is my favorite to help produce healthy, strong millipeds, but then I don't avoid the plague. I avoid the fleas from the rats.
"Problems with Cause and Effect In the mysterious tale of the “Curse of the Grecian Urn,” ownership of the mysterious urn seems to cause many untimely deaths. Is the urn cursed or does it illustrate a common problem in assigning cause and effect? What does an athlete on a hot streak have in common with a citizen concerned that an abandoned factory is causing an epidemic of cancer?" -Amy Glenn
If you can help me narrow down what the actual problem is then I'll be obliged to ya. I will continue to experiment. However, until I understand what is going on I am going to go with what seems to work for me.

What, do you find, are the fleas?
 

Elytra and Antenna

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I understand it can be difficult to determine the exact cause of death for our own animals at times, let alone for someone else's with limited information provided on the net, but the goal and hope is not to jump to the wrong conclusions and provide a cure that is worse than the symptoms. (Back to your earlier analogy: Imagine the benefits reaped if they had killed rats instead of burned living people during the plague.) I think most of the time (with exception of desiccation or overheating) those deaths cause by husbandry are related to food quantity and quality. The answer can be very different according to species and it is often too late to nurse back animals already showing signs.
 

MrCrackerpants

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I think most of the time (with exception of desiccation or overheating) those deaths cause by husbandry are related to food quantity and quality.
Can you elaborate? What if the food (decaying wood and leaves) is on just the top of the substrate and the substrate is made up of just millipede frass? Are you saying they MUST have other foods beside decaying wood and leaves? Thanks for the info... :)
 

SDCPs

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I understand it can be difficult to determine the exact cause of death for our own animals at times, let alone for someone else's with limited information provided on the net, but the goal and hope is not to jump to the wrong conclusions and provide a cure that is worse than the symptoms. (Back to your earlier analogy: Imagine the benefits reaped if they had killed rats instead of burned living people during the plague.) I think most of the time (with exception of desiccation or overheating) those deaths cause by husbandry are related to food quantity and quality. The answer can be very different according to species and it is often too late to nurse back animals already showing signs.
I agree with everything you said. I will add that if some animals are dying, and the problem is corrected, animals will likely keep dying for a period because those were already sick and they were near death anyway.

I have found a change to fresh substrate to be the very best way to stop "plagues". It works every time for me. Granted, one AGB is not juvenile flameleg millipedes dying for unknown causes...one death is not usually enough to say much, but a larger movement is. So the OP should not take extremely drastic action. I am just trying to provide some guidelines for the future and I may not be helping. But once more:


My current safest mix by trial and error is composed of about 45% cocofiber, 30% oak leaves, 20% bamboo, and 5% sand--and keeping this mixture moist or on the drier side and with adequate ventilation, and feeding supplemental foods seems to prevent flameleg plagues. The keeper can tell that the substrate is exhausted and take action with adequate warning. I need to continue this method to see, but these are the preliminary results. When I used a heavy compost mixture or lots of wood, things did not END well multiple times. My current conclusion is that things can go south in a hurry in rich, wet, substrate, whereas there's not a sudden crash with a leaner, drier substrate.

So, especially since adult millipedes do not need a rich substrate if they get supplemental food, I currently recommend against an elaborate substrate. "Good" substrates certainly did not stimulate my AGBs into breeding either. My experience suggests its better to err on the side of lean and dry. I just don't have millipedes dying of drier or leaner substrates, although they would if you go too far.


Can you elaborate? What if the food (decaying wood and leaves) is on just the top of the substrate and the substrate is made up of just millipede frass? Are you saying they MUST have other foods beside decaying wood and leaves? Thanks for the info... :)
 

MrCrackerpants

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Rich black compost is my favorite to help produce healthy, strong millipeds...
Orin,

So are you saying rich black compost (mainly compost of millipede feces) is your substrate and then you lay the decaying wood and leaves on top? For the most part, this is my main set up for my African millipedes. I only ask because there is an ongoing discussion where some say the substrate (when in this condition) is not good for millipedes and should be removed or decaying wood and leaves should be incorporated into this substrate to make it a good food source for the millipedes. In my case, I tend to just lay moist decaying wood and leaves on the top of this rich black compost and then let the millipedes eat it while it is on the top of the substrate. Can you give us your opinion? Thanks!
 
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