TKG Points of Discussion

Poec54

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Stan has directed many people to his book and website for care advice, and there's some things contained in those that should be discussed.

"Spiderlings to Adults: Those younger tarantulas with a DLS of about 2" and larger should be kept in cage with dry substrate...keep almost all of these as arid species."

My experience differs. Most of my species are from wetter tropical areas and have been introduced into the US during the last 10-15 years, about the time Stan sold off his collection. I keep most of my spiders on moist substrate; I don't understand why anyone would 'push the envelope' to see how dry they can get away with keeping theirs. If a tarantula's evolved to live in a habitat with 50-100" of annual rain, why give it desert conditions in captivity?

"There is at least one very good reason why we keep tarantulas in arid cages: With persistent high humidity comes the probability of infection and infestation."

The cages of my Theraphosa, Hysterocrates, Ephebopus, Megaphobema, Acanthoscurria, Chilobrachys, Cyriopagopus, Haplopelma, Heteroscodra, Lampropelma, Lasiodora, Nhandu, Ornithoctonus, Orphnaecus, Pamphobeteus, Phormictopus, Phlogius, Psalmopoeus, Pseudnocnemis, Selenocosmia, Sericopelma, & Thrigmopoeus are all have moist substrate with high humidity. Because of cross ventilation, I don't have issues with mold, mites, etc.

"Swamp Dwellers, like Theraphosa, Ephebopus, Hysterocrates, and Megaphobema"

These spiders live in rainforests, not swamps. A number of people take this literally.

"Those swampers that are bred in captivity fare much better...than their wild caught brethren."

In the past 2 years I've acquired 20 juvenile to adult w/c T stirmi and 3 w/c E murinus adult females. All have adapted to captivity without issue. The stirmi were selected by me at a local reptile dealer's, and I specifically chose ones with small abdomens, as I wanted to give them some TLC which I didn't think they'd necessarily get from someone else.

"ICU...has proven itself to be a valid and usually successful treatment for any circumstances in which a tarantula is too weak to maintain normal body posture or limb function."

As a broke college student in Michigan I maintained the tarantulas for a local reptile dealer (Geoff Schrock) and a local exotic pet store (the Black Lagoon). They both kept an inventory of assorted w/c tarantulas in deli cups and in exchange for feeding and watering them, I received free crickets for my spider collection (and an occasional spider). I've seen a number of weak, dehydrated adult tarantulas that were hours from death, with abdomens shrunken down to the size of a raisin. They were fully revived within 24 hours by a good long drink from a wet cotton ball. There was no need for an ICU.

If a tarantula has a small, wrinkled abdomen, it needs a drink. If it's weak with legs curled under for other reasons, for some genera an ICU can prove detrimental to a spider that might otherwise survive. Genera sensitive to moist conditions (Avicularia, east and south Africans, and Aphonopelma from the SW US) may have bigger problems if placed in an ICU. In fact, to a spider in those genera that was suffering from a moist cage, an ICU could be a death warrant. To blindly use these as knee jerk reaction for ailing spiders is not a good idea.

"Substrates...a few have proven to be very good...horticultural peat and shredded coconut."

For the last 20 years, I've kept all my spiders on bagged top soil, with excellent results.

"There are very few species of tarantulas that breed readily in captivity...enthusiasts are exploring those difficult to breed species' need for special conditions outside those recommended here, to promote their breeding."


This kind of says it all. Almost all of the tarantula species in the US were originally CBB in Europe. Someone bred them. The reason they're able to breed difficult species is because they study the habitats and climates of each species and duplicate those as closely as possible. As Stan said himself, his recommendations on husbandry don't seem to 'promote' successful breeding for the vast majority of species. Isn't that the true indication of proper husbandry?
 

telepatella

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Why don't you write a book on the care and breeding of tarantulas? Have you consulted Stan for his 4th edition?
 
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BobGrill

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That is a good question. I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge here poec, but this all seems a bit pointless.
 

klawfran3

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If I am guessing correctly... Are you basing this of the first edition? I don't remember reading a lot of these in the edition I have. For example you said the book says "Spiderlings to Adults: Those younger tarantulas with a DLS of about 2" and larger should be kept in cage with dry substrate...keep almost all of these as arid species." while the edition (Schultz, Stanley A., and Marguerite J. Schultz. The Tarantula Keeper's Guide. Hauppauge, NY: Barron's Educational Series, 1998. Print. Revised Edition.) I am reading out of clearly states on p. 255 "Water/ Humidity. Young tarantulas less than one-fourth to one-third full grown have not had an opportunity to develop the thick, impervious exoskeleton as the adults. As a result, they tend to dessicate quickly unless kept on damp substrate and in very humid conditions. The babies' bottles should never be allowed to entirely dry out. Unless we're reading a different book or it says it somewhere else I missed, I'm pretty sure the book is saying to keep all babies on damp substrate at all times.

Your next point is "There is at least one very good reason why we keep tarantulas in arid cages: With persistent high humidity comes the probability of infection and infestation."
It never says your cage will get a fungal infection, it says it is more probable. You can have all the cross ventilation in the world but if you accidentally leave a nice juicy bolas somewhere it can mold, especially with an enclosure with high humidity. I do admit though, cross ventilation will prevent it from happening a lot (if not most) of the time.

"Substrates...a few have proven to be very good...horticultural peat and shredded coconut."
and you said, I quote "For the last 20 years, I've kept all my spiders on bagged top soil, with excellent results."
The TKG has a whole section covering substrates, and the first one is described, you guessed it, potting soil. It starts on P. 135 and continues to 136, explaining potting soil as a substrate. It says to check the package specifically so that you do not use one that has pesticide, fertilizer, or wood by-products. I'm pretty sure this means that Stan *does* approve of potting soil, even though he states his preference for Peat or coconut. Nowhere does it say (from what I've found, correct me if I'm wrong!) that you should not use potting soil as a substrate in that whole section for it.

"There are very few species of tarantulas that breed readily in captivity...enthusiasts are exploring those difficult to breed species' need for special conditions outside those recommended here, to promote their breeding."
This seems to scream "older edition" as I have just re-read the breeding section and I did not see this statement (I could have missed it too, so if you find it, point it out by page number and I will be happy to recant my previous statement. This goes for everything else too).

I agree with you in that the TKG is outdated in husbandry practices and informatioin, but keep in mind the book was revised back in 2009 I believe, and the hobby has CERTAINLY grown leaps and bounds in care in information since then, and I've only been in this hobby since 2012.
If I am not mistaken, Stan is revising the book too for another edition.

As it says on the website itself
"GREAT NEWS!
The Tarantula Keeper's Guide,
Edition Four
is now being actively worked on.
The bad news is that the release date is still several years away. "

It's a book. Everything we learned since it was last updated has to be typed out and published. It can't be updated in your hands.


I do also agree that this thread should exist too, as it is invaluable for helping newcomers stay up to date and know what they should and shouldn't do, and what has since become outdated because of it.

Thanks for starting the thread!

---------- Post added 01-08-2015 at 10:03 PM ----------

Why don't you write a book on the care and breeding of tarantulas? Have you consulted Stan for his 4th edition?
I would buy this book if you wrote it actually. It's better to have more books with more diversity of opinion and technique.
 

esotericman

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Sadly, the "ICU" exemplifies the many problems with the text. The exoskeleton, setea and cuticular waxes are absolutely hydrophobic. The ICU only halts or slows dehydration, but rehydration must occur via the mouth. This actually means the stressed animal is forced to suck water out of a paper towel which is obviously more hydrophilic than open water. As pointed out, every aspect of the biology of these organisms is ignored. Such treatment of our charges if transferred to vertebrate animals would constitute animal abuse. The use of anecdotal stories and dogmatic assumptions does not help those hobbyists hoping to grow past that introductory text. Does the hobby need an introductory text, yes. Does it deserve one which is up to date and more factually based? Absolutely. The truth is the author will defend it vehemently, but it should be noted that the only positive things heard from US breeders and long term keepers is that it serves as training wheels to start on.

I do think the author(s) did great things to kick the hobby into gear, but I think it's time to retire the text totally.
 

ratluvr76

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Stan is currently working on the fourth edition. I'm certain he will update the information as needed. No reason to retire the whole of it. That sort of seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater so so speak.
 

Poec54

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What I quoted was pulled off the website this week, I don't know what's in the various editions of the books. He's still putting out the info I quoted. My first 'points of discussion' with Stan began in the 1990's about the first edition or two of the TKG, where the information on growth rates, eggs per sac, etc were based on Brachypelma/Aphonopelma type tarantulas; I had mostly tropicals at the time which had far fewer eggs per sac, larger 2nd instars, and males were maturing in a year. There were a couple reasons for these discrepancies, one being the time lag between new species in the US and Canada, with Canada typically being several years behind. The other is that Stan's passion has been for the calmer NW terrestrials that he could handle, which were the majority of his collection. Certainly nothing wrong with that (there's some great spiders there), but in the 1990's there was a large expansion in the number of tropicals in the US. Today tropicals are the majority of the hobby. It was only in the last 10 years that OW's became popular. In the mid 2000's both Stan and I sold off our collections. When I got back in several years ago my head was spinning from how many tropical species were on pricelists, and from places they weren't available from before, like Madagascar, Indonesia, Philippines, China, Australia, etc. All OW hemisphere, which was like Christmas to me.

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 06:48 AM ----------

That is a good question. I'm not doubting your experience or knowledge here poec, but this all seems a bit pointless.
This site is about tarantula husbandry. Stan regularly directs people to his website and book for his husbandry advice. There are parts of that advice that I and others disagree with. A 4th and final edition is in the works. That seems pretty relevant.
 
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jigalojey

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Totally relevant topic imo, Stan was over on the Aus forums the other day and a member attacked him about giving wrong Aussie species conditions to a beginner, I believe the conditions Stan gave were the conditions things like Brachypelma and Grammostola thrive in, interesting this has been brought up.
 

BobGrill

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Never said it was irrelevant, just rather moot. It would be a lot more efficient if Poec just wrote his own book that included what he considers correct husbandry. Hell, I'd read it.
 

Poec54

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Never said it was irrelevant, just rather moot. It would be a lot more efficient if Poec just wrote his own book that included what he considers correct husbandry. Hell, I'd read it.
I have no plans to write a book. If I was to, I'd spend a lot of time interviewing big collectors and breeders. They're on the forefront. Since Stan is revising his, this is an ideal time to discuss some areas that collectors/breeders view as weak points. This can be a very positive thing and make the TKG better than ever. I have recommended the TKG to beginners many times here. The people I talk to with experience disagree with a number of things and dismiss the TKG as out of touch with the hobby today. I'd like to see that change.

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 09:27 AM ----------

Totally relevant topic imo, Stan was over on the Aus forums the other day and a member attacked him about giving wrong Aussie species conditions to a beginner, I believe the conditions Stan gave were the conditions things like Brachypelma and Grammostola thrive in, interesting this has been brought up.
One of my motivations for starting this thread is that I recently ran across a thread on another forum where a member was asking for advice on keeping Sericopelma generalis, which is native to wet cloud forests in Central America. Stan advised to keep it in an arid cage. Ray Gabriel spoke up and pointed out the folly in that. Some of Stan's husbandry recommendations are out in left field, and it's concerning me when I see people trying to follow those things to the letter. They may have worked for Stan with the species he had and what he was doing up in Canada, but they aren't necessarily good for many others, especially with the huge wave of new introductions in the past 10 years. Stan has nothing but the best of intentions, but the hobby has changed significantly in many ways since he was keeping spiders.
 
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Sana

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A point that I think should be included in any discussion of husbandry is awareness of the climate in which you live. I frequently hear the advice given that dry sub and a water dish is the best setup for many species. It seems when that advice is given that the use of a water dish will negate any need for additional humidity. In some places, that may well be the case, here though without taking measures to increase the humidity in the room, I doubt I could successfully keep a tropical species. I feel that it is incredibly important to understand the differences between where you are and where your spider is found naturally.
 

esotericman

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If you follow the news of the text and its history, you may hear the stories of how before it had figures and pictures inserted, before it was formatted the latest version of the text was 400 pages! Much of the material online was put there to allow expansive diatribes and some updating. With entire publishing houses closing, unless the next version is a "print it yourself" text offered online, I have a very hard time believing the publisher will pick up another 300+ page text.

The real point is not if a publisher will pick up the text or not, the point which Rick is making is that it is just incorrect. Basing breeding advice on experiences from WC materials over the course of many years is not really breeding advice. Just as adding lead to your gasoline is no longer appropriate, things change, even for mechanics with 50+ years of experience. Thus to stay relevant, I think the text should be completely overhauled, probably from a blank page beginning. Again, mad respect for the text being here for the hobby for all those years, but it's time for it to retire or be burned and reborn.
 

EulersK

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At the very least, Schultz is a scholar. He's dedicated years upon years studying a single subject. As with any subject, information grows, as others in this thread have brought up.

As a scholar, he has been trained specifically to build his knowledge, and no true scholar is arrogant enough to think they don't need to seek out advice and new information from other experts in the field. While there are users on here with a wealth of knowledge, I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum. He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind. I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak. Why on earth would he take advice from an anonymous user in a dark corner of the internet?

To be clear, this isn't to say that the advice on this forum is negative. Just that it's no place for a scholar to review works.
 

Poec54

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- I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum.
- He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind.
- I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak.
- Stan knows and has met many of us. It's not anonymous. There are people here he needs to talk to, one-on-one.

- He does need our help. When it was printed, parts of the 3rd edition were out of date with the hobby. That's only increased. It's been years since he's kept tarantulas. He can draw on his personal experience only so much.

- His sources of info need to include today's big collectors and breeders of new species, like Chris Allen and Tom Patterson. I don't know that Stan knows them or has talked to them.

- Stan visits this forum regularly, often with lengthy 'Stan's Rant's' for beginners; rest assured this thread will 'cross his mind.' You're looking at him like he's royalty, but he's very down to earth.
 

MadMauC

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At the very least, Schultz is a scholar. He's dedicated years upon years studying a single subject. As with any subject, information grows, as others in this thread have brought up.

As a scholar, he has been trained specifically to build his knowledge, and no true scholar is arrogant enough to think they don't need to seek out advice and new information from other experts in the field. While there are users on here with a wealth of knowledge, I would look down on Schultz if he were to seek advice from an anonymous-based forum. He doesn't need our help, and frankly it's arrogant to think that this thread will even cross his mind. I very much doubt that he doesn't have his own sources of info (e.g. breeders and collectors) he's looking into as we speak. Why on earth would he take advice from an anonymous user in a dark corner of the internet?

To be clear, this isn't to say that the advice on this forum is negative. Just that it's no place for a scholar to review works.
+1 - I think some of us have no idea about the mechanics of building of a house and continually speak of it in dire needing of a renovation.
Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.
 

Sana

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I'm personally looking forward to any updates that there may be to the anatomy, physiology, and history sections. I have been very interested in learning more about these since I've gotten sucked into the abyss of this hobby. When it comes down to it though, I'm not the most science savvy person on the planet, and I've had a very difficult time with some of my reading on the subject. Stan's information on these is somehow miraculously written so that even I can understand it, and that isn't a simple task.
 

Poec54

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Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.
Absolutely. Stan has done a lot for the hobby and has helped to get us where we are now. He's put a lot of time and effort into that and deserves our thanks. For his book to be relevant today, it should reflect what's been happening in the hobby over the last 10 years.

---------- Post added 01-09-2015 at 12:58 PM ----------

Stan's information on these is somehow miraculously written so that even I can understand it, and that isn't a simple task.
Stan has a very good writing style.
 

Stan Schultz

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One and All -

I intend for this to be my only response to this thread. This is because it has too great a potential to develop into a flame war with all the attendant hard feelings and repercussions, and I want nothing of that scenario.

However, having said that, rest assured that while I will not participate, I will be regularly monitoring this thread, and giving your complaints, criticisms and suggestions serious consideration. It turns out that this really is the best time for such a thread as this. A couple of months later and it may have been too late to make any sweeping changes to the TKG4 manuscript.

Thanks, Rick, for starting it.

And, a hearty thanks to all of you for all your consideration and good words.

_____________________________________________________________________

A reality check is when your little 8-legged, screaming banshee from Hell has
YOU backed into the deli cup!
_____________________________________________________________________

Now I'm going to the Dairy Queen for a Chocolate Extreme Blizzard. And I, like most other less evolved creatures, DO swallow solid food!
____________________________________________________________________
 

esotericman

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+1 - I think some of us have no idea about the mechanics of building of a house and continually speak of it in dire needing of a renovation.
Stan is a scholar and a true hero of the T keeping pioneers, he is the T architect that engineered and build the T keeping house that many of us still live in today.
Exactly. Many of us do live in houses which have lead paint, radon in the basements and cost thousands to heat and cool from being so outdated. These houses kill us slowly, just like keeping all species dry and too cool kills our pets slowly. Or at least makes breeding difficult forcing spiderling prices higher, again just like buying an old house for the "character". It was a good house decades ago, it's time to bulldoze.

"Monitoring the thread" fully demonstrates the ego associated with the text. All college textbook author revises heavily to incorporate new data, new thinking. This never has been, nor ever will be a stagnant hobby, well unless it continues to live in an condemned house.
 

Alltheworld601

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Besides the obvious problems of having worked with predominantly wild caught animals for as many years as the author has, thus lumping everything we keep into three or four categories (what was it, Arid, tropical, swamp dwellers? Something like that) despite many varying care requirements and many new species introduced into the hobby over the past however many years - mostly through captive breeding - and the fact that regardless of how many editions come out, the information really doesn't change much at all .... my #1 issue with this text is that it promotes handling as a means of "taming" a tarantula. Whether you believe handling makes a difference or not isn't even the issue, and I hate having to be the one to drop the "H" word on an otherwise civil thread, the trouble is that with this book being frequently recommended to beginners, it encourages them to engage in an irresponsible act with promise of an outcome that will never be delivered. All real science thus far has stated that they cannot become used to a handler, and furthermore that repetitive stress can be deadly or have other detrimental results for small animals, a category that certainly includes tarantulas. If one has been working with them for many many years in large numbers and has a basic knowledge of biology and safe handling practices, its certainly your prerogative to do what you will with your own animals. But to put it in a book that is then hailed as "the bible" of tarantula keeping is wholly irresponsible. There is a part that says if you hold them repeatedly they will "calm down and even enjoy the exercise" - but there is no science to back this up, and most refutes it. These are solitary, antisocial animals that are equipped with a variety of defenses and prefer to be left alone, untouched, and unstressed.

So that's my biggest gripe. Granted I find a lot of errors as far as care goes - the fear mongering about mites and using un-sterilised soil from outside (where tarantulas live) is another gear grinder..but I have seen in my travels among the various forums, the author presented with evidence of many things, even with citations, and he turns a blind eye or argues without data to back it up. I doubt this thread will change my above peeves...but these are the reasons I instead recommend other, less wordy and more to the point texts to newbies in the hobby. Or forum threads. :)
 
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