P. subfusca debate

Angel Minkov

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Hello. I was looking for papers on this subject, but couldn't find any - what's the case with P. subfusca "highland" and "lowland"? Are they different color forms/variations, are they the same species at all, or 2 different? Is P. bara a valid name for P. spec "lowland", or is it still "P. spec "lowland" "?

Any clarification would help a lot!
 

lalberts9310

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Well IMO (this is what I heard), P. Subfusca highland and P. Subfusca lowland are different species.. I think I can remember a thread on here that involved a gynandromorph of a P. Subfuscha higland/lowland hybrid.. I don't really know what the difference is between the two, I just know they are different
 

Poec54

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Officially the same species, but this is not accepted by everyone, especially in Europe. 'Highland' is smaller, blacker dorsally (black folium, mostly black carapace) and lives at around 6,000+ foot elevations near Nuwara Eliya in a cool montane climate (with few, if any palms). 'Lowand' is larger, has more white and yellow dorsally (light folium, lighter carapace), and lives further west near Kandy, at around 1,600 foot elevation, in a hilly area with a warm subtropical climate (with coconuts, which need a good deal of heat to survive). Obviously related, but they've been separated on different mountains (and elevations) for thousands of years. There's also had to have been some internal changes for them to be able to live is such different climates. Same species? Subspecies? DNA testing will eventually resolve this.

It's been suggested that the high elevation form is blacker in order to absorb more sunlight and warm up during cold days.
 

Austin S.

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Officially the same species, but this is not accepted by everyone, especially in Europe. 'Highland' is smaller, blacker dorsally (black folium, mostly black carapace) and lives at around 6,000+ foot elevations near Nuwara Eliya in a cool montane climate (with few, if any palms). 'Lowand' is larger, has more white and yellow dorsally (light folium, lighter carapace), and lives further west near Kandy, at around 1,600 foot elevation, in a hilly area with a warm subtropical climate (with coconuts, which need a good deal of heat to survive). Obviously related, but they've been separated on different mountains (and elevations) for thousands of years. There's also had to have been some internal changes for them to be able to live is such different climates. Same species? Subspecies? DNA testing will eventually resolve this.

It's been suggested that the high elevation form is blacker in order to absorb more sunlight and warm up during cold days.
Awesome information man, thank you for that!
 

Poec54

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So P. bara is not a valid taxonomic name?

Technically, no, but don't feel bound by that. It's still in use in Europe. The 'two subfusca's' have obvious similarities, but they are far from being identical. I think making them synonymous has created problems and led to some cross-breeds.
 

Poec54

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That would make sense...if they weren't nocturnal...

Colder at night, especially at 6,000 feet, and I would think they'd come out midday/late afternoon to warm up in the sun and get their metabolism going before a night of hunting.
 

Philth

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I think I can remember a thread on here that involved a gynandromorph of a P. Subfuscha higland/lowland hybrid.. I don't really know what the difference is between the two, I just know they are different
The P. subfusca gynandromorph was a pure highland from what I remember. Gynandromorphism has nothing to do with being a result of a hybrid, and has little to do with this thread.

Later, Tom
 

vespers

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Colder at night, especially at 6,000 feet, and I would think they'd come out midday/late afternoon to warm up in the sun and get their metabolism going before a night of hunting.
Of course it is cooler at night and at higher altitude, that's basic knowledge. I'm not buying that theory though without some sort of proof/account of this occurring in nature. A large nocturnal/photophobic spider likely isn't going to "sunbathe" out in the open during the afternoon, and risk being vulnerable to a bird or other predator. Also, such a "warming effect" of the day isn't going to last it much into the night. The environmental temperature would drop with time after sundown, as would the spider especially considering it's relatively small mass. You could put an ectothermic tarantula in your fridge and it would be somewhat sluggish and slowed in 15 to 20 minutes; a similar if exaggerated effect. I'm sure the "Highland" subfusca has a better way of adapting, aside from a somewhat darker coloration than it's lower elevation relatives. Not to mention that P. rufilata, in keeping with this theory, should also have a strong black coloration as an adaptation for living in a montane environment. But it doesn't.
 

Storm76

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Technically, no, but don't feel bound by that. It's still in use in Europe. The 'two subfusca's' have obvious similarities, but they are far from being identical. I think making them synonymous has created problems and led to some cross-breeds.
It's wrongly used, though. It's not valid. People over here use it because buyers recognize it.
 

Poec54

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- A large nocturnal/photophobic spider likely isn't going to "sunbathe" out in the open during the afternoon, and risk being vulnerable to a bird or other predator.

- P. rufilata, in keeping with this theory, should also have a strong black coloration as an adaptation for living in a montane environment. But it doesn't.
- With Poecilotheria's cryptic markings/coloring, they certainly aren't easy to see, which is why my adults usually remain motionless when I open their cages. They seem to be under the impression I can't see them. On the bark of a large tree (with the exception of metallica), I probably wouldn't.

- Rufilata is relatively dark (brown and green) and lives less than half as high as the 6,000 feet that subfusca does.
 

lalberts9310

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The P. subfusca gynandromorph was a pure highland from what I remember. Gynandromorphism has nothing to do with being a result of a hybrid, and has little to do with this thread.

Later, Tom
Thanks for the correction, I may have misread it, thought it was a highland/lowland hybrid which resulted in a gynandromorph.
 
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Angel Minkov

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I think it actually was a hybrid. I remember that thread, but I dont think the gynandromorph was due to hybridization.

---------- Post added 02-27-2015 at 04:50 PM ----------

Sorry for doubleposting, but I have another question - is it true that P. subfusca are not sexually dimorphic before maturity (like miranda, metallica etc?)?
 

Pociemon

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Poecilotheria subfusca"Highland" = Mostly black Carapace with a light center star. Whole folio on the abdomen, and are 15-16 cm in legspan.
As juveniles, they are very easy to see gender differences. Females have large white markings between the patella
and femur, males have only two small bright lines on the patella.

Poecilotheria subfusca "Lowland" = Have a lot of light color around the edges of the carapace. Distributed folio on the abdomen and is
18-20 cm in legspan. You cannot see the gender differences between P. sp. "Lowland", just by looking at the patella and femur.
The differences are best seen in mature individuals, many images on the Internet shows subadult individuals that do not show the
correct and clear differences between P. subfusca "Highland" and P. subfusca "Lowland".

Maybe search for sbfusca subjects in here, there are a few other usefull threads you can use....
 
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Poec54

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Highland's have a mostly black carapace with a light center 'star.' Lowland's have a lot of light color around the edges of the carapace.
 

Pociemon

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Highland's have a mostly black carapace with a light center 'star.' Lowland's have a lot of light color around the edges of the carapace.
I have allways looked at it as light in highlands, but i can see what you mean, it is actually more dark to the common eye. So i changed my description with modifications from you, so it should be more understandable now!

 
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