Snake intelligence

So just today, I fed my spider ball Monty a large mouse. Granted, while snakes are designed to handle food better if consuming it from the front, he unluckily began working his way from the backside this time. Obviously this would make the process more difficult (especially with the tail in the way).
Well, what surprised me was that instead of just fiddling with the dead mouse for a long while, the snake was using part of his coils to work his way around the mouse's back-end as if they were hands. Never observed him doing this before (since I always have to monitor his feedings, especially with his non-dissuaded preference for live prey) , and as of right now he's over 5 years old. Could he be learning?

Go on... continue...
It's super easy to cite various scientific papers and findings regarding mental capacity and learning ability, but at the end of the day after all our theories have been neatly packaged into working hypothesiseses, we still don't know everything. We stop learning at... cells don't replicate under X, neurons always act this way and so on. But come the bottom line, all the advances in AI today combined together still fall short of the synaptic connections firing when mouse scratches at a flea.

So you tell us. I'm listening.

The Snark said:

Go on... continue...
It's super easy to cite various scientific papers and findings regarding mental capacity and learning ability, but at the end of the day after all our theories have been neatly packaged into working hypothesiseses, we still don't know everything. We stop learning at... cells don't replicate under X, neurons always act this way and so on. But come the bottom line, all the advances in AI today combined together still fall short of the synaptic connections firing when mouse scratches at a flea.

So you tell us. I'm listening.

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Well, I'll probably have to see for myself in the future with observations to come. It would be a challenge especially on his part since he's just began entering pre-shed (pink belly is now flushed) thus I wouldn't be feeding him for at least another two weeks or so anyway. It would be cool if he could retain that knowledge from that experience, but I don't know how the reptilian brain operates- perhaps it's less primal than previously thought.
You have a point though- ascribing set limitations to animals and their capacities is really only something humans created, and even the more "primitive" creatures are complex in their own right. It's difficult to peer into an animal's habits and actually interpret how it perceives them.

And just to toss a wrench into the scientific analysis works, brain function varies drastically within members of the same species. Compare G W Bush to Darwin or Einstein. Going by visible manifestations of neurological function a scientist could easily be forgiven for reaching the conclusion they aren't even the same genus.

The Snark said:

And just to toss a wrench into the scientific analysis works, brain function varies drastically within members of the same species. Compare G W Bush to Darwin or Einstein. Going by visible manifestations of neurological function a scientist could easily be forgiven for reaching the conclusion they aren't even the same genus.

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*Rubs my eyes* Was that TRULY necessary? It's 2015 now. It's better to have a low-intelligence president than a smart despot. This is a thread about snakes. I happen to have a snake, a Ball Python, and yes, she is extremely intelligent, dog-like. Recognizes faces, very stubborn and strong-willed, actively seeks out humans because she knows they give food.

Charles Darwin married his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood by the way. The only "intellectual" of any merit whom has actually shown observable and repeatable theories is Albert Einstein in your list.

To the OP, yes: your snake is learning. All animals have the capability to learn because all animals have the instinct to survive. Adaptation.

Wow, Darwin married his first cousin! (A very common practice of his time by the way.) That makes the evolution theory total bullshit in my eyes now! I am enlightened.

From personal experience with multitudes of animals I have taken care of, I find lizards to be more advanced in their learning skills compared to snakes. My snakes do recognize me and they act more relaxed around me compared to other people but they will still kill me if I let them even though I feed them. They are more reflexive. Lizards on the other hand, especially large ones like the Varanus genus, learn to recognize their owners and can attain a very docile state in time. In fact, I have seen some Water monitors, which can distinguish between pets and food. They wouldn't mess with their owner's small dogs or cats but they would eat a similar sized rabbit.

I've had many snakes through the years. I currently have an eastern indigo, which is largely regarded as one of the more "intelligent" snake species. I've yet to see anything that most people would regard as true intelligence in any snake. Sure, they have the capacity to learn certain behaviors such as acclimating to humans. But, I've just never seen any thought process like problem solving. But, if you don't define intelligence as being the type of brain power that humans, possess, then maybe. The instinctive behaviors of snakes and other animals could be regarded as "intelligence". These behaviors are things they "know" to do that help their survival.

The smartest snakes i've seen are always colubrids


They're so curious, it's crazy.

I enjoy my hognose's level of intelligence. When he grabs a mouse in the middle, he makes no adjustments. He's realized the most effective way to eat is to keep cramming the hopper down until it folds in half and blood and guts burst out from either end. Streamlined intelligence.

Or one very bitchy kauothai who chomps a chick then releases it, moves her coils over it and chomps another. Given the opportunity she will hog, bully and intimidate the fellow snakes and claim all of the chicks in the cage.
Another female in the same cage will quickly grab one chick then coil up in a corner, keeping her head under the coils.
It seems the older they get the more they develop these quirks.

The Snark said:

Or one very bitchy kauothai who chomps a chick then releases it, moves her coils over it and chomps another. Given the opportunity she will hog, bully and intimidate the fellow snakes and claim all of the chicks in the cage.
Another female in the same cage will quickly grab one chick then coil up in a corner, keeping her head under the coils.
It seems the older they get the more they develop these quirks.

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Kauothai? Didn't find anything that looked like a snake in google images.

Anubis77 said:

Kauothai? Didn't find anything that looked like a snake in google images.

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Typo.

Naja kaouthia, the Monocled Cobra.

Najakeeper said:

Typo.

Naja kaouthia, the Monocled Cobra.

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Right. A pyto. Now say this several times fast as you repeatedly type it: Ahaetulla nasuta. (It's pronounced ඇහැ*ටුල්ලා)

By the way, how do you pronounce Naja Kaouthia? In Thailand it's NadJAE (Lanna) or naGA, ko thee YA.

I don't know the species name but I have heard Na-ja, Na-ya, Na-ha for the genus...

Learning: [YOUTUBE]O-UVkVG6bC4[/YOUTUBE]

One thing to keep in mind with these discussions is that our expectations and evaluations of intelligence are very often "how much does this thing think like I do?" Animals often learn best when they are doing things that they need to do in nature.

Take my hermit crabs as an example. I had one out on the kitchen table for a drawing session, and after a while of sitting quietly he walked toward the edge and immediately fell off. I was watching, and caught him, and after he flipped himself over I set him back on the table. We repeated this several times, and at around the fourth time he figured out that, when going over an edge, it is advantageous to look over the edge, back up, and not fall.
Now, if I wasn't there to catch him, he would've fallen and potentially been injured three times before learning that he needed to hold on. The important part is that if he was not a captive crab living in a human's apartment, he would never encounter this kind of situation. These crabs live on the ground, and when they climb trees, the only surface they have to fall down on is loose sand or dirt. They and are not naturally equipped to navigate steep drops and cliffs. This crab comes from a species which memorizes locations, individuals, and shells, stores food for the future, and evaluates resources and needs based on what is most necessary to acquire. These are actually fairly smart animals. So why can't I teach him to quit pooping in the water dish, or to come out of the cage when I call his name? Those are not things he needs to know.

Similarly, pigeons that can be trained to press levers and categorize pictures for food rewards are doing things which are related to natural survival skills. They cannot, however, learn to do something which is too far away from their natural repertoire.

Corn snakes have been shown to recognize visual cues to find their burrows, a very natural application of intelligence which they can extend from where rocks and trees are to colored targets and signs in an arena. These snakes are frequently, though anecdotally, reported to recognize and habituate to people. Still, I've never heard of one that learned to be toilet-trained, fetch a stick, or play chess.

Animals with more advanced learning abilities can learn to do strange things, absolutely. One way of describing intelligence can be flexibility. But it doesn't mean a snake is stupid if it doesn't always eat the mouse head-first (or wrap its coils around a knife and cut it up first). In the wild, releasing a prey item for a moment might mean not getting to eat at all, and either way, the food gets down the throat and the snake is apparently satisfied with that. It's not necessarily incapable of learning or making intelligent choices, it's just limited by the lifestyle it's made for.

Also, Snark, that dog video is excellent.