Complicated spider behavior question?

BugPrince

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I'm a little curious about some behavior a couple of my spiders have been exhibiting. Months ago I was taking care of a Brachypelma smithi for a friend, and it's since been gifted to me, so I've had him for maybe four months. The previous owner CLAIMED he was at least 11 years old (I understand he's probably not actually male if he hasn't hooked out at 11, but I've stuck to "he" because I haven't properly sexed him and I don't think the spider really cares.) I've affectionately begun calling him the "floppy grandpa" because of some behavior he exhibited that I attributed to him being very old. See, he doesn't quite move right; not immediately responsive to touch anywhere on his body, seems to have a little difficulty carrying himself around--if he's on a slightly inclined surface and is going downward, he will sometimes just slide down and and land on his little face. His legs just seem a little wobbly and like he isn't quite able to catch himself properly if he falls in any direction, he will land on slightly curled legs instead of extending them to catch himself.

Now, like I said, he's exhibited this behavior since he was given to me and I thought "well, most things don't quite work right when they get very old. Maybe he is just "floppy" because he is very old!!" He still eats, and I find him in different areas of his cage so he moves around okay. No sign of any impending death curl in the months I've had him. I decided it was nothing to worry about.

Recently, though--in the last two months or so--my Aphonopelma schmidti started exhibiting very similar behavior. I bought her as an adult so I have no idea how old she is, but I doubt I somehow ended up with another spider as allegedly old as the Brachypelma smithi, and this behavior started rather suddenly. Once again, she eats when she wants, she drinks water, I find her in different areas... She seems to be altogether HEALTHY, (she even moulted a few days ago!) but her movements have just become... Floppy? Trouble catching herself, her reaction to touch is never immediate, has problems with uneven surfaces.

Does anyone know if this behavior is something to worry about? I haven't noticed anything obviously strange--no creatures or worms, no trouble eating, no other signs of a more common problem. Is there some sort of "Tarantula Neurological Disease" I don't know about, or will they just be "floppy but otherwise healthy" forever?
 

cold blood

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I don't think age has the same type of effects on t's as it does mammals. I have a G. porteri that was an old girl when I got her, already in a 4-5 year molt cycle....that was 15 years ago, I'd guess she's at minimum 25,likely older and I have not seen anything to indicate that age is effecting her...Her behavior and responses are exactly as they were 15 years ago.

Sounds as simple as the t(s) are just nearing molt. Losing footing is common with pre-molt t's as their new exo grows beneath the old one. It always amazed me how many people fail to just put up a simple pic or two....can we get one? The only other thing I could think of would be if you were feeding wild caught prey items....I'm just assuming that's not the case.
 

Formerphobe

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Photos, or even video of behavior would be great.
Do they have free, easy access to water?
Any pesticides used around the house? On household dogs or cats?

Eleven is not old for a Brachypelma. Also, is possible for a male to not mature in that time span if fed sparingly and kept at cooler temps. Not the norm, but possible.
 

BugPrince

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Well I didn't figure a picture would help anyone, since the problem is with their movement and one of them moulted two days ago and is still heavily exhibiting this behavior (as I mentioned in my original post.) I'm fairly new, so forgive my lack of knowledge, but can a spider be in pre-moult for three or four months? Because that's how long I've had the B smithi (and he was also malnourished when he was given to me, which is probably why he looks worse for wear) Here are some pics:

The A schmidti after her moult a couple of days ago (still exhibiting this behavior today):

yeah.jpg

The B smithi a month or so ago, not much has changed:

okay.jpg
 

BugPrince

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Photos, or even video of behavior would be great.
Do they have free, easy access to water?
Any pesticides used around the house? On household dogs or cats?

Eleven is not old for a Brachypelma. Also, is possible for a male to not mature in that time span if fed sparingly and kept at cooler temps. Not the norm, but possible.
They do both have free access to water! small, shallow dishes that I keep filled. I can get video of the behavior if you'd like! I JUST moved into a house with cats AND dogs, but they are not allowed in the spider room and I literally only moved here about five days ago, so that doesn'tmake too much sense. The months before that, only one dog who was not allowed in the spider room as well. As far as I know, no pesticides are used around the house at all. Good to know he could still have a long life ahead of him!!
 

cold blood

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Well I didn't figure a picture would help anyone, since the problem is with their movement and one of them moulted two days ago and is still heavily exhibiting this behavior (as I mentioned in my original post.) I'm fairly new, so forgive my lack of knowledge, but can a spider be in pre-moult for three or four months? Because that's how long I've had the B smithi (and he was also malnourished when he was given to me, which is probably why he looks worse for wear) Here are some pics:

The A schmidti after her moult a couple of days ago (still exhibiting this behavior today):

The B smithi a month or so ago, not much has changed:
Pics are valuable because you can often see evidence of impending molt as the skin on the rump darken, their colors fade and even the femurs will look almost shiny.

And yes, for slow growers like you have, several months would be almost the minimum pre-molt period...often it can last as long as a year...sometimes more. He probably wasn't malnourished, that's hard to do with slow growers....one cricket a month will keep them healthy....that's a dozen crickets a year...not much.

Following a molt, it could take a week or three before the t is back to normal...it takes a while for them to harden up and return to normal life.

Vid would be helpful...is the walking motion "twitchy" and frantic? Have you fed wild caught prey items?

My dog's in my t room all the time, unless they were just given frontline or something recently, dogs shouldn't be an issue at all. Actually the frontline type products are most dangerous because you pet the dog and get residual on your hand, then handle prey to feed or do work without washing up first.
 

BugPrince

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He was certainly malnourished when he first came to me as his abdomen was shriveled and tiny and he ate four-five crickets a day for the first few days he was with me. I've never fed any of my T's wild caught prey items. And no, the motion is not frantic or twitchy, quite the opposite--slow, just sliding along.... I'll post a video or two!
 

cold blood

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He was certainly malnourished when he first came to me as his abdomen was shriveled and tiny and he ate four-five crickets a day for the first few days he was with me. I've never fed any of my T's wild caught prey items. And no, the motion is not frantic or twitchy, quite the opposite--slow, just sliding along.... I'll post a video or two!
That's great news all around. Doesn't sound like a pesticide issue at all, and that was the worst case scenario, so thumbs up there.

Feeding 4-5 crickets a day for multiple days is a "great" way to speed a t to the next molt, resulting in a LONG pre-molt period (one single superworm would have probably done the trick). I personally wouldn't ever feed a Brachy that much in such a short period of time...and yeah, most would eat that much if presented with the opportunity.

From your description he sounded more dehydrated than anything...he may have just molted in the month prior to you getting him, this would explain the small rump...that's normal.
 

BugPrince

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Okay, I may be new, but I'm not THAT new :\ I've had enough of my T's moult to know the difference between a smaller abdomen after moulting and a shriveled raisin from never being fed, and I don't think it's quite true they would always eat that much when given the opportunity because all of my spiders go through periods of accepting and refusing food. I'm familiar with the fact that my little terrestrial desert T's will refuse food for months. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as that was months ago when I first received him and he no longer looks like this! I will take your advice on not feeding them so quickly in the future though, even if they may seem very malnourished. A slower growth over a longer period of time is probably more healthy, you're right, thank you! It's very good to know that it most likely isn't a pesticide issue!!!

Okay, so here is a video exhibiting the behavior (he leaves wet streaks because his feeties were in his water bowl):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PG9ntVlNdo

Now, I realize that material is very easy to slide on and doesn't have much to grab, so here he is (slightly less obviously) exhibiting the same behavior on a rougher, easier to grab surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zms3n5ilgM

He shoots hairs at me both times so obviously I agitated him by moving him around a bunch (I rarely ever touch my T's) :C I wasn't sure how else to show you guys though!

---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 03:12 PM ----------

Also at least if dehydration is the issue it can be easily fixed, but he drinks and has access to water and has been this way for many months, is it still possible he's dehydrated?
 

Karmaz

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Okay, I may be new, but I'm not THAT new :\ I've had enough of my T's moult to know the difference between a smaller abdomen after moulting and a shriveled raisin from never being fed, and I don't think it's quite true they would always eat that much when given the opportunity because all of my spiders go through periods of accepting and refusing food. I'm familiar with the fact that my little terrestrial desert T's will refuse food for months. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as that was months ago when I first received him and he no longer looks like this! I will take your advice on not feeding them so quickly in the future though, even if they may seem very malnourished. A slower growth over a longer period of time is probably more healthy, you're right, thank you! It's very good to know that it most likely isn't a pesticide issue!!!

Okay, so here is a video exhibiting the behavior (he leaves wet streaks because his feeties were in his water bowl):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PG9ntVlNdo

Now, I realize that material is very easy to slide on and doesn't have much to grab, so here he is (slightly less obviously) exhibiting the same behavior on a rougher, easier to grab surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zms3n5ilgM

He shoots hairs at me both times so obviously I agitated him by moving him around a bunch (I rarely ever touch my T's) :C I wasn't sure how else to show you guys though!

---------- Post added 08-16-2015 at 03:12 PM ----------

Also at least if dehydration is the issue it can be easily fixed, but he drinks and has access to water and has been this way for many months, is it still possible he's dehydrated?
There's definitely something off about him, not sure what it could be though.. Maybe he's just lazy? (joking) but even on the slippery surface he shouldn't have allowed himself to just fall off on his face.
 

orionsXlight

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Derpy tarantula syndrome? Sadly I have no clue what's up with these guys.. There's no way it's dehydrated though.. at first I was thinking maybe Dyskinetic syndrome but the movements don't look right to be that.. I'd love to hear from a spider neurology expert xD
 

BobGrill

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Derpy tarantula syndrome? Sadly I have no clue what's up with these guys.. There's no way it's dehydrated though.. at first I was thinking maybe Dyskinetic syndrome but the movements don't look right to be that.. I'd love to hear from a spider neurology expert xD
Let's not start yelling DKS please. Just to clarify, DKS isn't a disease, it's a rather large list of symptoms that could be related to a number of things, exposure to pesticides being one of the most common.

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BugPrince

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So what I'm getting is that, while no one is really sure what's wrong, it doesn't seem like too much of a worry...? The B smithi has been this way since I first interacted with him, like I said, so I already assumed he was just going to be this way but otherwise healthy till he eventually dies. I only became worried when my A schmidti started exhibiting the same behavior, but maybe I just wound up with some floppy tarantulas...? It seems strange that 2 of my 7 are doing this but no one else seems to have experienced it! :0
 

cold blood

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Except for the little slide, he looks pretty normal to me, I don't think I'd be too worried, but definitely something to keep an eye on. I wonder if he somehow lost the hooks on some of his feet during his last molt...never heard of that before though. Very curious though...nothing wrong with his flicking ability though, he was a champ in that department.

A small abdomen is a hungry spider, shriveled is a dehydrated one. Sounds like both for him when you got him.
 

BugPrince

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Except for the little slide, he looks pretty normal to me, I don't think I'd be too worried, but definitely something to keep an eye on. I wonder if he somehow lost the hooks on some of his feet during his last molt...never heard of that before though. Very curious though...nothing wrong with his flicking ability though, he was a champ in that department.

A small abdomen is a hungry spider, shriveled is a dehydrated one. Sounds like both for him when you got him.
Thank you so much! I'll keep an eye on the schmidti as well, while she isn't quite as bad as the smithi and it's harder to see, she is definitely having more difficulty moving and catching herself than she had before. I'll just continue watching them to see if anything worsens. I suppose as long as they eat, move and drink, they're alright!
 

BugPrince

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So, here's an update to the situation.

Milo did, in fact, moult recently--three days ago. Seemed to have no trouble moulting, and it seems Milo is actually a girl! ;0

tumblr_ntwsbzJuX81uzv2ino3_1280.jpg

Quality could be better, but as I'm pretty confident (and it seems to be fairly obvious, even with this quality) I'm sure it doesn't matter.

Unfortunately, nothing seems to have improved after the moult--I know they say that post-moult they can still act a little strange, but I really stress that none of my other spiders have ever exhibited this behavior? Before or after moult, no matter how recent or distant the moult was. Here she is today, three days after moulting;

tumblr_ntwsbzJuX81uzv2ino1_1280.jpg tumblr_ntwsbzJuX81uzv2ino2_1280.jpg

And here I've uploaded another video just exhibiting similar behavior that she's always shown. You can see how slow she is to react to touch (she is this way with prey as well) and the way she drags her legs as she walks instead of picking herself up and moving freely. She also seems to drag her whole body a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM-wD8yNXIM

Now, I know the general consensus is that she's probably just fine if she's eating, drinking, moulting and moving about, which she is. But I'm kind of flabbergasted that no one seems to have experienced this? Obviously SOMETHING is wrong, whether it's terminal or not I'd still be interested in knowing what that SOMETHING is. It doesn't look like much, but being unable to react quickly or even lift herself off the ground or move without dragging her legs (and as previously stated, having much difficulty on uneven surfaces) is quite worrisome.
 

BobGrill

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Change the substrate. Wood chips are bad for invertebrates.

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BugPrince

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Even so, wood chips aren't a good substrate, especially for animals that like to burrow
I... I get that. In fact, I already knew that, which is why she's only been on it for a very short period of time while this whole move went down because I figured it was better than just glass until I could get more substrate. That's also why I agreed with the last person who said this. I'd really like to get back on the subject at hand, though.
 
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