Handling for Education.

Arachnomaniac19

Arachnolord
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Aug 23, 2014
Messages
652
Personally, I'm fine with people holding some NW Ts. I've never held one since I was a kid. So my question is, what are your opinions on handling for educational purposes? For example, someone's being stubborn and thinks all Ts are aggressive. Would you be fine with holding a T to show said person that Ts are usually docile, or is that generally considered still bad?
 

BobGrill

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
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Jan 25, 2011
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1,669
No I wouldn't.

Now, let the flame wars begin.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk
 

Chris LXXIX

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When i heard about educational purpose and handling in the same sentence thinks to those who bring NW (usually) T's in some TV studios and talks with an annoyed, falsely interested, anchorman.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
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WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Pictures and actions speak louder than words. Much louder? Much much louder. Hello? A lot louder. A LOT louder. Got it?

You explain about physiology, anatomy, aerodynamics and submersible snot and the average persons input is what they see, 99%, what you are saying, 1%.

The first thing this educational stunt teaches therefore is HANDLE YOUR T. FONDLE IT! DROP IT IN YOUR SHORTS! Oh, were you saying something? I was busy, hypnotized and mesmerized by T crawling on hand.

Is that what you want to teach? Is there some magical formula that shunts the ocular input into the ozone and enhances the verbal instructions?


Please, GET REAL! I've given hundreds of up close and personal instruction courses, hands on. As I demonstrate CPR I look at all my students and their 'deer in the headlights' blank stares. I test by asking 'HOW MANY TIMES?'. Uhhhhh huh? What? If I was using a half nude woman instead of a mannequin, or a T wandering about on my arm, it would probably take an hour per sentence to get each salient point across.
 

Prle

Arachnopeon
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
27
I have a few questions and answering to them you'll see my point of view about this topic.

Doesn't every single living thing haves its own personality, its own bad days and its own variable level of tolerance to our messing in their enclosure? And isn't such action unnecessary risk for T having in mind possible injury or stress?

I think that just lid opening of some docile species that will stay in place is enough to make your point IMHO. But even then they probably feels vulnerable and their reactions can't be predicted, especially if there is a crowd witch reactions and noise level aren't under our control.
 

Storm76

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Messages
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Some of you may remember the family of my friends I had over at my place for learning some more about T's in general. While I don't promote handling in general, I'm also of the opinion that who wants to handle does so at their own risk. That said, obviously I'm against OW handling altogether, since the impact on the hobby (worst case) will be detrimental.

Now, when it comes to teaching people about tarantulas, especially those that are terribly scared about them, handling is one of the few things that will help to convince them that they aren't aggressive, but defensive or extremely hungry. Personally, I've weighted the option which of my T's to expose to handling a long time and while one of the kids was wanting a bigger one, I stuck with my Euathlus sp. "red". Why? Many reasons. For one, over all the time these have been in the hobby, I haven't heard or read of a single instance that these bit their keeper. Secondly, from personal experience, if they do get scared they'll rather pull up their legs than do anything else. Lastly, I don't force them but let them decide. So if, as I explained to my visitors that day as well, one decides to try taking a walk but crawling out of the enclosure (which is was sure would happen...:D) I'd be able to show them. And despite what you said Snark, these people listened and didn't just see. It depends a lot on the person and generalizing is never a good thing to do.

The outcome of that day for them was that a lot was learned and I can attest to the "learning" part, since months later on the birthday of one of my friends kids I was over at their place and gifted her a nice, big exoskeleton. While her friends were scared like hell, she started to explain (!) to them what it was about and what not. I'm of the opinion that, especially with kids, a little handling like in the example above, can't hurt and it's not like you do that daily or weekly either. Considering the T chose to crawl out and onto my hand offered, stress for the animal itself was as low as can be as well.


After all: What good will all your explanations do if you can't prove it?!
 

Poec54

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'Education'? What are you trying to teach: encouraging them to handle? In spite of the good intentions, this is a big reason why we have so many bites today, which could one day get tarantulas banned. People see someone else holding a tarantula and want to do it themselves, in spite of any cautions and warnings. Most of what you've told them is soon forgotten, and they pick out a pet spider by it's pretty colors, instead of it's temperament and speed. This isn't about you, the 'instructor'. It's about the audience and what they're going to take away from your demonstration and want to do themselves. You unintentionally become a catalyst for some reckless behavior.

30 years ago the hobby was mostly adult w/c Brachypelma and Aphonopelma. There was no YouTube or possibility of tarantulas being banned as pets. A lot has changed. Now the hobby is almost all CBB tropicals because most countries have shut down their animal exports. An advantage to tropical species is that many are fast growing and colorful. But most are also fast running and more high strung. Unlike before, a significant percentage of the species available today are defensive, some with strong venoms. Regardless of the intent, public displays of handling are simply irresponsible with so many of these species in the hobby today. It makes things worse, not better. It's not educating. This has become a 'hands off' hobby now, like tropical fish. Handling spiders is no longer relevant in the current political and legal environment, it's a risk and a stunt. Handling is the single biggest threat to the hobby's survival. There's a 'Look at me!' mentality that is causing more bites, more serious bites, and a bad one going viral could take down the hobby. Is that 'education'? Who benefits? It's not 'Handle at your own risk.' It's 'Handle at the hobby's risk.'
 
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Storm76

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I'm fully aware of your strong opinion on this and while I share a good part of it, I also disagree on certain parts.

Once more: Yes, it was educating for them. If they would've only looked and not listened, it would've been for naught, but it wasn't. Otherwise I can't explain why the mentioned kid explained to the other chicks on her birthday a whole bunch of things about them. Including that they aren't meant to be handled (!) - despite of how I conducted that educational couple hours and handling a tiny dwarf T. She was even as thorough as explaining to them the difference between NW and OW - doesn't that say something? It wasn't soon forgotten as you suspected, but they kept in mind.

Besides, it wasn't a "public" display, as this was done at home with only the kids and their parents around and the whole "stunt" as you call it (with that particular T? Really? Come on now...) didn't take longer than 3 min after which the T crawled back into her enclosure. There was no harm done to anyone, nor to the hobby. They actually didn't pick out a spider at all, since their parents, despite all the education they received, don't want these animals in their house with their other pets (dogs and cats) - by the way because they are worried for the T's (!) safety. What I've done is giving a family accurate information about them in general, the species I keep and a little "extra" that they're fully aware of isn't something that's normally done. As for safety, I did leave out my Poecies and Chilobrachys even of the feeding that day because of safety-reasons - after explaining. There were no complains. Dealing with arachnophobia people is a little different than dealing with someone "just" interested in getting first T, Sir.

So, with respect, if you think what and how I've done that is wrong, that's your opinion but I would do it the same way again if I had to "redo" the experience for them. Because you can tell people everything and as much as you want: In the end a lot of arachnophobia suffering people (which 3 of these were) won't believe you for a second, unless you can prove your claims to them.
 

KristinaMG

Arachnosquire
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
96
'Education'? What are you trying to teach: encouraging them to handle? In spite of the good intentions, this is a big reason why we have so many bites today, which could one day get tarantulas banned. People see someone else holding a tarantula and want to do it themselves, in spite of any cautions and warnings. Most of what you've told them is soon forgotten, and they pick out a pet spider by it's pretty colors, instead of it's temperament and speed. This isn't about you, the 'instructor'. It's about the audience and what they're going to take away from your demonstration and want to do themselves. You unintentionally become a catalyst for some reckless behavior.

30 years ago the hobby was mostly adult w/c Brachypelma and Aphonopelma. There was no YouTube or possibility of tarantulas being banned as pets. A lot has changed. Now the hobby is almost all CBB tropicals because most countries have been shut down their animal exports. An advantage to tropical species is that many are fast growing and colorful. But most are also fast running and more high strung. Unlike before, a significant percentage of the species available today are defensive, some with strong venoms. Regardless of the intent, public displays of handling are simply irresponsible with so many of these species in the hobby today. It makes things worse, not better. It's not educating. This has become a 'hands off' hobby now, like tropical fish. Handling spiders is no longer relevant in the current political and legal environment, it's a risk and a stunt. Handling is the single biggest threat to the hobby's survival. There's a 'Look at me!' mentality that is causing more bites, more serious bites, and a bad one going viral could take down the hobby. Is that 'education'? Who benefits? It's not 'Handle at your own risk.' It's 'Handle at the hobby's risk.'
The reference to '30 years ago' is helpful. I had wondered why The Tarantula Keeper's Guide recommends handling. When I first read that part of the book I was surprised and then second guessed my own decision not to handle. It helps to see it in context of a different era.
 

Nicolas C

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Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
72
I really like the way you say it, storm76.

I'm not a big fan of the "slippery slope" argument: if I were, I should accept the fact that having tarantulas in my home is at the hobby's risk... as it is for everyone, and I should sell my collection for the sake of the hobby (or, to put it clearer: hobby should be killing itself).

And I must confess I do believe (because I'm an old naive optimistic guy...) that it's possible, under specific circumstances, to educate people. Of course, it's always possible that some people misuse the advices others are giving (call it freedom or stupidity), but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't educate, believe that it would be helpful, and welcome the good surprise of people learning and acting in a responsible way. And handling can be a part of that, if it's done in a smart way, like an illustrated exception for a specific goal. Of course, the warnings you give, poec, always stay in my mind, but I don't want them to mean "never".

Explanations, shades and freedom's respect are better in my book than "don'ts".
 

Ellenantula

Arachnoking
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Sep 14, 2014
Messages
2,009
I am in non-handling camp.

But disclaimer alert: I was severely arachnophobic and had watched a few youtube videos/documentaries where psychologists used tarantula handling to assist people in overcoming their fear of spiders. I purchased my G rosea for the sole purpose of holding her to overcome my fears. It was the most proud moment when I prodded her bottom to get her to step up on my hand -- wow! I was holding an actual spider and not freaking out. She weighed nothing -- it was like the size of siberian dwarf hamster but the weight of a feather. I was proud of holding her, and saw how incredibly delicate and fragile spiders were and realized I should stop being afraid of them and instead be protective of them.

Watching videos of people handling a T goes a long way to teach the public that spider fears are irrational.

BUT (you knew this was coming) it also teaches people that it's okay to handle tarantula and it is NOT okay. Ts don't want to be handled -- they do not benefit from it. Ts have rights too. Ts are at risk of injury and death from handling -- an unpredictable T may zig when you thought it would zag -- falls, ruptures, death.

And, my bravery with handling my G rosea was because I simply believed she was of absolute no threat to me -- why? Based on the videos that taught Ts were no threat at all and were easily handled.
I realize NOW Ts are unpredictable, I could have been bit, I could have had knee-jerk reaction and flung her, dropped her accidentally, etc..

So, while I see both sides of the issue (it can help people with fears of spiders) I even concede such handling may send out a positive message to the public that these animals do NOT need banning and are completely safe. BUT it also sends out a false message that these animals are completely safe and that leads to cases of OBT, pokie bites & MIA 'hots' that got loose -- stuff we do NOT need leaked to the media.

Ultimately, as grateful as I am to my rosie handling experience, I cannot in good conscious recommend the handling practice. I suppose if someone would do the handling at floor level, in private, with an expert present, for the sole purpose of overcoming arachnophobia, PERHAPS no harm would be done. Perhaps.

But I am going to be very angry if Ts get banned and I have to part with my crew. FWIW, I do NOT handle G rosea now. I got that out of my system. And I remain aware others will want to get handling out their system too. :(

My 2 cents worth.
 

cold blood

Moderator
Staff member
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Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,223
Its like teaching someone how to drive by doing doughnuts and topping the car out....yeah it will be exciting, but a poor way to educate as to learning how to driving a car....like cars, t's should be educated through a more responsible means and not a potentially reckless one...JMO.
 

Angel Minkov

Arachnobaron
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
595
You can report any thread you think is inappropriate. This one would probably have gone better in T Chat than this forum. You can also skip any threads offensive to you.

How can this possibly offend me? It's just the same thing over and over on the forums, like this topic. I've seen at least 5 of these in the past few months and it's just getting stupid reading the same thing every day on the forums. It needs to stop.
 

Chris LXXIX

ArachnoGod
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
5,845
I think we are missing a key factor, also. I think that majority of non T's keepers people knows somewhat, more or less, that T's aren't "aggressive" and that you will get end up bitten only if you mess too much or damn unlucky (like in most "widows" bite case i've heard).
Just that they don't care.. spiders, and T's more, being them hairy and giant, are good scapegoats. How many insects and animals (including sea ones) are more venomous, some even poisonous, than T's and Spiders?
But T's and Spiders embody more than those IMO primitive, unknow fear.
How many movies about snails, killer frogs, ants etc and how many much made about T's, Spiders, or starring them? No "Cloak and Sword" videogame is complete without a giant spider to defeat <-- i'm watching you, Rom the Vacuos Spider :)
 

Poec54

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Mar 26, 2013
Messages
4,745
The reference to '30 years ago' is helpful. I had wondered why The Tarantula Keeper's Guide recommends handling. When I first read that part of the book I was surprised and then second guessed my own decision not to handle. It helps to see it in context of a different era.

Stan got his first tarantula in the late 1960's (I got mine in the early 1970's). The hobby went a couple decades with a majority of calm w/c species; the commonly repeated phrase 'The bites are no worse than a bee sting' was true for those. Stan built a big collection of calm species and handled them regularly. But that's an era that doesn't exist any more. Stan hasn't owned any tarantulas for the past 10 years, which is when the big influx of European CBB tropicals and OW's inundated North America. He hadn't owned a lot of the new tropical species that were coming in during the late 1990's (he visited me last year and asked to see my Grammostola pulchripes, as he'd never seen one in person). I had looked at a current price list last year from a big dealer, and something like 80% of the species weren't in the hobby in 2000. It's a whole different world now, and he's been an observer to the changes, not a participant. Many people question the relevance of his books in a hobby that's changed significantly from what he experienced. He's writing a 4th and final edition that will hopefully bring the series current to today's hobby, species, and political environment.

In the late 1990's Stan and I had some online forum exchanges about the edition of his book that was out at that time. He had written something to the effect that all tarantulas lay 500 to 1,000 tiny eggs in a sac and take 8 to 10 years to mature. I questioned him on that, as I had species with bigger eggs and much smaller sacs, and that some of my males matured in a year. Even then his books weren't up-to-date, as the hobby in Europe and the US was shifting to tropicals in the mid 1990's and being a handler, Stan wasn't thrilled with owning fast, defensive species, especially OW's. And that's fine, we all have our own preferences, we get what we're comfortable with. But it makes it much more difficult to write a book about the tarantula family and it's incredible diversity. Stan did a lot to promote the hobby over the years, he's part of the reason tarantulas became popular in the US. But his 'baby' grew up and went it's own way.

I still have fond memories of my collection in the 1970's. I could leisurely work with them for hours and didn't have to be constantly prepared for things running out of their cages and up walls. But no one bred back then (you couldn't give away slings, people only wanted w/c adults) so that era existed until most countries stopped exporting animals (due to pressure from the US govt). The only way the hobby's been able to survive this long is from captive breeding, and the irony is that Stan himself says that if you want to breed, you may have to keep your spiders differently from what he's advised in his books. There's a big relevancy issue there. If captive breeding winds down, so does the hobby. Most of the species in the US today originally came in as CBB slings from Europe. A number of big dealers still regularly bring in large European shipments. What if the large scale breeders in Germany move on to something else, and stop breeding spiders? What if the US bans imports of CBB exotic spiders? We don't have nearly enough people breeding in the US to sustain the hobby at it's current level. We can't look to the TKG for help with that. In fact, following the TKG will make things worse, from less breeding and more handling and bites. The 1970's are over; we need to change gears to keep the hobby going.
 
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Ellenantula

Arachnoking
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
2,009
How can this possibly offend me? It's just the same thing over and over on the forums, like this topic. I've seen at least 5 of these in the past few months and it's just getting stupid reading the same thing every day on the forums. It needs to stop.
Ah, forums, newbies, revisited topics, etc. I sysop'd on Pets Forums on CompuServe back in 90s. If we didn't allow repetition of subjects, we'd have been closed at 100 threads and a dead forum. Don't let it bother you, and mods may move it yet.:coffee:
 

KristinaMG

Arachnosquire
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
96
Stan got his first tarantula in the late 1960's (I got mine in the early 1970's). The hobby went a couple decades with a majority of calm w/c species; the commonly repeated phrase 'The bites are no worse than a bee sting' was true for those. Stan built a big collection of calm species and handled them regularly. But that's an era that doesn't exist any more. Stan hasn't owned any tarantulas for the past 10 years, which is when the big influx of European CBB tropicals and OW's inundated North America. He hadn't owned a lot of the new tropical species that were coming in during the late 1990's (he visited me last year and asked to see my Grammostola pulchripes, as he'd never seen one in person). I had looked at a current price list last year from a big dealer, and something like 80% of the species weren't in the hobby in 2000. It's a whole different world now, and he's been an observer to the changes, not a participant. Many people question the relevance of his books in a hobby that's changed significantly from what he experienced. He's writing a 4th and final edition that will hopefully bring the series current to today's hobby, species, and political environment.

In the late 1990's Stan and I had some online forum exchanges about the edition of his book that was out at that time. He had written something to the effect that all tarantulas lay 500 to 1,000 tiny eggs in a sac and take 8 to 10 years to mature. I questioned him on that, as I had species with bigger eggs and much smaller sacs, and that some of my males matured in a year. Even then his books weren't up-to-date, as the hobby in Europe and the US was shifting to tropicals in the mid 1990's and being a handler, Stan wasn't thrilled with owning fast, defensive species, especially OW's. And that's fine, we all have our own preferences, we get what we're comfortable with. But it makes it much more difficult to write a book about the tarantula family and it's incredible diversity. Stan did a lot to promote the hobby over the years, he's part of the reason tarantulas became popular in the US. But his 'baby' grew up and went it's own way.

I still have fond memories of my collection in the 1970's. I could leisurely work with them for hours and didn't have to be constantly prepared for things running out of their cages and up walls. But no one bred back then (you couldn't give away slings, people only wanted w/c adults) so that era existed until most country's stopped exporting animals (due to pressure from the US govt). The only way the hobby's been able to survive this long is from captive breeding, and the irony is that Stan himself says that if you want to breed, you may have to keep your spiders differently from what he's advised in his books. There's a big relevancy issue there. If captive breeding winds down, so does the hobby. Most of the species in the US today originally came in as CBB slings from Europe. A number of big dealers still regularly bring in large European shipments. What if the large scale breeders in Germany move on to something else, and stop breeding spiders? What if the US bans imports of CBB exotic spiders? We don't have nearly enough people breeding in the US to sustain the hobby at it's current level. We can't look to the TKG for help with that. In fact, following the TKG will make things worse, from less breeding and more handling and bites. The 1970's are over; we need to change gears to keep the hobby going.
Thank you. Besides the handling recommendations in the book, I came across a few other recommendations in the book that differed from what I have read over and over lurking on these boards and reading reliable keeper blogs. I will take some of the info in his book with a grain of salt.
 

Beary Strange

Arachnodemon
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
670
I think it sends the wrong message than the one intended. It's trying to say "Look, these aren't the monsters you think they are. See, I can hold them, they're harmless." But when this goes well, you're leaving the audience with the impression that tarantulas can be held without risk. And if it goes bad, you've done nothing to dispel the notion that they're scary. In my opinion, the best way to educate people and dispel their fears is to take these teaching opportunities to instead go into their physiology, why they react the way they do to different stimuli, why we should not hold them. Show them the tarantulas, but in their enclosures, where each side feels safe.
 

Poec54

Arachnoemperor
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
4,745
I think it sends the wrong message than the one intended. It's trying to say "Look, these aren't the monsters you think they are. See, I can hold them, they're harmless." But when this goes well, you're leaving the audience with the impression that tarantulas can be held without risk. And if it goes bad, you've done nothing to dispel the notion that they're scary. In my opinion, the best way to educate people and dispel their fears is to take these teaching opportunities to instead go into their physiology, why they react the way they do to different stimuli, why we should not hold them. Show them the tarantulas, but in their enclosures, where each side feels safe.

Right, the audience makes the assumption that any tarantula can be handled like that, after all you did it. They walk away with the vivid mental image that they're harmless in your hands. We do not want to promote that message. Like most wild animals, they're harmless if you leave them alone. Get your hands too close and they'll feel threatened, and you may find out about the oversized fangs. They shouldn't be treated like toys.

---------- Post added 08-26-2015 at 03:39 PM ----------

Can a mod step in and delete this topic, because this is seriously getting ridiculous....... :cry:

This is an important thing to discuss. if you don't want to read it, then don't open this thread.
 
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