P. subfusca?

Amimia

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Aug 21, 2014
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Hey there, I recently bought a P. subfusca and after the fact I realized there are "lowlands" and "highlands." So I was hoping someone could clear up some confusion.
1. I saw something a while back that said one of those forms is now named P. bara, any truth to that?
2. Is one more prevalent in the hobby than the other?
3. Is there any big difference between the two besides the coloring?
4. Can you tell any difference between the two early on or do you have to wait till they're a certain size?

Sorry if any of these questions are dumb or obvious. I couldn't find much on them except lowlands tend to be more expensive
 

Angel Minkov

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Aug 3, 2014
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1. No, as far as I know, it's not a valid taxonomic name, though it is a junior synonym to P. subfusca "lowland" and its widely used in Europe by dealers.
2. Don't think anyone can answer that, but I tend to come across lowlands much more often, probably because HL is a lot harder to get to drop sacs.
3. I don't know about "advanced" taxonomic cues, but besides the coloring, there's nothing you can go on, like you could in other Pokies like leg banding, belly bands and such.
4. You'd have to wait till they're adults, that way you can see the true colors. Males, after maturing, look basically the same, hence why people often produce hybrids. Color is not a good way to discern spiders, though, so don't bet on telling them apart based on that alone.

These are my 2 cents, wait for other, more experienced keepers to answer as well before making conclusions.
 

Amimia

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1. No, as far as I know, it's not a valid taxonomic name, though it is a junior synonym to P. subfusca "lowland" and its widely used in Europe by dealers.
2. Don't think anyone can answer that, but I tend to come across lowlands much more often, probably because HL is a lot harder to get to drop sacs.
3. I don't know about "advanced" taxonomic cues, but besides the coloring, there's nothing you can go on, like you could in other Pokies like leg banding, belly bands and such.
4. You'd have to wait till they're adults, that way you can see the true colors. Males, after maturing, look basically the same, hence why people often produce hybrids. Color is not a good way to discern spiders, though, so don't bet on telling them apart based on that alone.

These are my 2 cents, wait for other, more experienced keepers to answer as well before making conclusions.
Thank you! That helps :)
 

Poec54

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Highland and lowland are commonly misnamed in the trade, so regardless of what you think you're buying, you really don't know what you're getting unless you see pics of both parents. The highland (subfusca) is from Nuwara Eliya, Sri Lanka which is 6,000 ft+ elevation. They're smaller and blacker (probably to absorb heat from sunlight). The lowland (bara) is from Kandy which is around 2,000 ft and warm/hot. I was looking at daily temps for a while and they're similar to southern Florida. The lowland is larger and has more white/yellow on the legs and carapace; the folium is lighter too. Since many of the ones in the hobby have the wrong name on them, people unintentionally breed them together, so there's a certain number of mixed ones around too. You wouldn't be able to tell the slings apart.
 

Angel Minkov

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Also mature males cannot be told apart from what I know from Tom, so that's why all the mixing up is occuring.
 

Storm76

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Also mature males cannot be told apart from what I know from Tom, so that's why all the mixing up is occuring.
Not the only reason. There've been many reports over here that stated both forms emerge from the same sac, even if the parents -are- the same species. Personally, I don't think anyone but those that may have permittedly collected them, have a "true" one of either. These have been accidentally cross-bred in the hobby for years IMO. Also, "bara" is still used by many, but you're right that it is invalid.
 

Angel Minkov

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Not the only reason. There've been many reports over here that stated both forms emerge from the same sac, even if the parents -are- the same species. Personally, I don't think anyone but those that may have permittedly collected them, have a "true" one of either. These have been accidentally cross-bred in the hobby for years IMO. Also, "bara" is still used by many, but you're right that it is invalid.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that. I think that if it was true, it'd make them color forms of the same species, which they are not, based on DNA research. And you said it yourself - except the people who export them from the wild, which are probably very, very few, others have a slim chance of having a true 'fusca.
 

Storm76

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I'm still waiting for someone to prove that. I think that if it was true, it'd make them color forms of the same species, which they are not, based on DNA research. And you said it yourself - except the people who export them from the wild, which are probably very, very few, others have a slim chance of having a true 'fusca.
For example: CLICKY
 

MrDave

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Aug 31, 2014
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Both look like sp. 'lowland' to me.
Look at their carapace.

When these two come out of the same sac, I'll be convinced. ;P
Based upon Poec54's comment re how to tell them apart, I would guess the top one is 'highland'? That is a particularly beautiful tarantula.
 

Poec54

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Based upon Poec54's comment re how to tell them apart, I would guess the top one is 'highland'? That is a particularly beautiful tarantula.

Yes, the top one is highland, more black everywhere and a black folium. The lowland has more much white/yellow, and a lighter folium. And yes, it's a beautiful species.
 

Storm76

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Anyways, that one was just an example. There's more out there if you google some, but either way: I'm pretty sure that what we have in the hobby, is a cross-bred and that goes for both forms. I highly doubt either of them is "pure" anymore.
 

Ceratogyrus

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Both look like lowland to me as well. :)
There is an even bigger difference in colour with these two now, will try get updated pics sometime.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole subfusca group is a total mix-up in the hobby due to unintentional "cross-breeding"
 

Poec54

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There is an even bigger difference in colour with these two now, will try get updated pics sometime.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole subfusca group is a total mix-up in the hobby due to unintentional "cross-breeding"

+1. A combination of wrong names, and the pronouncement that they're the same species, have made the mess. How do we undo it?
 

Ceratogyrus

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+1. A combination of wrong names, and the pronouncement that they're the same species, have made the mess. How do we undo it?
Don't think you can, other than not to breed any hobby stock and import fresh spiders to start again. Till the next person messes it up...

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk
 

Angel Minkov

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+1. A combination of wrong names, and the pronouncement that they're the same species, have made the mess. How do we undo it?

I was considering getting WC adults and attempting breeding, but from what I was told, they're illegal to export from their habitat.
 

Storm76

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Don't think you can, other than not to breed any hobby stock and import fresh spiders to start again. Till the next person messes it up...

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk
Considering a lot the T's are imported from Europe and I see them bred on a regular basis over here...yeah. Wouldn't suprise me in the least.
 

Poec54

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I was considering getting WC adults and attempting breeding, but from what I was told, they're illegal to export from their habitat.

All Poecs are, and have been, highly protected and there's no chance of getting any from India/Sri Lanka. I thought everyone knew this.
 

Angel Minkov

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How do they get to the hobby in the first place then? ;) I'm sure they can be exported, even though not legally, for breeding. But as stated, there would be no point as it would lead to the same result.
 
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